Rock in New York City

[TonySantiago]

There is way too much money on the line. And the topline ratings numbers mean nothing. It's all about how a station does in demo, and that is what translates to billing.

To twist it from my end, with the phenomena that is happening with EDM you would THINK more radio outlets throughout the country would get on board. But that isn't happening, certainly not as quick as one would think.

CC launched their two "Evolution" stations in Miami and Boston on weak signals. Gainesville, FL launched a "Party" brand from JVC Broadcasting (Vic Latino) but Gainesville isn't a big market. But here's a case where I do agree with WNTI in regards to a demo and the reality that I'm getting now is the fact that just like EDM, Alternative caters to a much younger demographic that has abandoned terrestrial radio since it does NOTHING for them, nor WILL it.

You have a much better chance of Newsradio 880 and 1010WINS parking on an FM frequency before we get our respective stations. Radio is "old tool" to the younger demos and no matter how much one can spin it with positive billings and specific demo growths, the reality is that those under 30 don't care.

This is something that I'm finally contending with. I'm still trying to push for my format and if a dance/EDM station does come back to New York, I'll be happy. But after that....that's IT! I will be done and walk away from my quest for the format on terrestrial radio once that EDM station in New York flips format to something else. If other EDM stations launch after that anywhere else in the country, that's great and I would support but I'm not "fighting" for that.

My efforts will lean more on dance/EDM matters within and to push further support on the Internet and any other future mediums that happen along the way.

Go Internet. There are TONS of alternative streams out there that will more than satisfy Terrestrial radio did themselves in. Not your fault or mine. It's what it is.

 

[WNTIRadio]

The younger crowd does listen to radio. Look at the CHR ratings across the country.

Less broad based formats like EDM or Alternative don't do as well. At least in NYC, Alternative won't do as well as other rock based markets.

Alternative is a suburban format, just like Nash.

Tony, I know how hard you fight for it, but I just don't think the raw numbers are there to support an EDM station in NYC on a full B signal. 103.9 would be the best place to put it.

 

[chrocket87]

Tony, I know how hard you fight for it, but I just don't think the raw numbers are there to support an EDM station in NYC on a full B signal. 103.9 would be the best place to put it.

We all know Cumulus won't launch EDM lol

 

[tjolsen]

I still contend that a well programmed alt-rock station ala the last form of RXP with a well spent promotional budget (lots of on the street/social media marketing) would turn respectable numbers, a 2.5, possibly even a 3 share, based upon the results the second RXP saw with no promotion at all.

 

[WNTIRadio]

I'd love to see the demos of the RXP "filler format" after FM Snooze. A 2.5 6+ means nothing to the buyers and salespeople.

I do think rock would do better than EDM, both in and out of demo. I spent a lot of time in Boston and found 101.7 tough to listen to during the day, especially at 8:30 in the morning. Maybe a more mainstream dance/pop during the day and EDM at night might work better, like WFUV or WXPN do the regular AAA during the day and then more alternative at night.

I could be wrong, and this is only my opinion... I can't see the extended mixes and long cuts that are found on an EDM station working well in the short attention span PPM world.

 

[atlantaboy]

Not a lot of people listen to Alternative radio in their home (since that demo has a high use of MP3 players), and I don't think a huge number of businesses have Alt. music playing at work - it's really a station for people to listen to in the car, which in the New York City market, which doesn't even extend that far outside of the city, is a huge risk

In general, nationally, only about a third of listening takes place in the car. In New York City, the fairly recent data we have shows that figure to be 25% in the market.

"At work" listening is not necessarily listening in "businesses" but on the loading dock, in the warehouse and stockroom, on the factory floor, etc.

I looked at the last NYC metro home-work-car breaks we have, and checked 18-34 and found that 38% of AQH listening was in the home, 28% in the car and 30% at work.

So your assumptions about listening in the core demo of that format are wrong.

Really? Somewhere in that post did you mention the listening habits of Alternative listeners? :

 

[chrocket87]

I'd love to see the demos of the RXP "filler format" after FM Snooze. A 2.5 6+ means nothing to the buyers and salespeople.

IIRC, RXP closed out at 10th 18-34 and 14th 25-54. Not bad for only 4 months on air and no promotion.

 

[davideduardo]

Not a lot of people listen to Alternative radio in their home (since that demo has a high use of MP3 players), and I don't think a huge number of businesses have Alt. music playing at work - it's really a station for people to listen to in the car, which in the New York City market, which doesn't even extend that far outside of the city, is a huge risk

In general, nationally, only about a third of listening takes place in the car. In New York City, the fairly recent data we have shows that figure to be 25% in the market.

"At work" listening is not necessarily listening in "businesses" but on the loading dock, in the warehouse and stockroom, on the factory floor, etc.

I looked at the last NYC metro home-work-car breaks we have, and checked 18-34 and found that 38% of AQH listening was in the home, 28% in the car and 30% at work.

So your assumptions about listening in the core demo of that format are wrong.

Really? Somewhere in that post did you mention the listening habits of Alternative listeners? :

They pretty accurately mirror the demo. Keep in mind that the average PPM panelist who listens to an alternative station listens to 5 or so additional stations during the typical week.

And there are no useful alternative numbers available for NY.

Looking at LA, when the precise in-car levels were available, the combo of KROQ and KYSR had 30% in the home, 30% at work and about 38% in the car. So in-car was well less than half the total listening.

 

[TonySantiago]

The younger crowd does listen to radio. Look at the CHR ratings across the country.

Less broad based formats like EDM or Alternative don't do as well. At least in NYC, Alternative won't do as well as other rock based markets.

Alternative is a suburban format, just like Nash.

Tony, I know how hard you fight for it, but I just don't think the raw numbers are there to support an EDM station in NYC on a full B signal. 103.9 would be the best place to put it.

Just my thoughts here but here's the real reasons why the younger crowd listens to radio.

1) They don't own a smartphone
2) If they HAVE a smartphone, they don't have an unlimited data plan (and/or) their car may not have an aux port nor do they have a cassette or CD adapter.
3) They are in their cars with their parents who tune in to radio.

If given the choice, ask anyone 30 and under what they would rather hear...radio or online streams/services, you are most likely going to get the latter as the answer. Sure, CHR may be rising, and in part I do think the whole electro pop movement is helping...of course the teen idols out there too (Bieber, Swift) but I think the true story lies on Internet. And not JUST streams or services such as Spotify. YouTube certainly has helped. You hear more stories of these artists (positive or NOT, lol) on Twitter. Social media has been a big help. And that's where that crowd is.

Regarding dance/EDM, at this point I'll take it anywhere. I've said my beliefs about it to the point of exhaustion for a lot of you. There's nothing further I can say about it. I hope it does happen and I'll be fully supportive of it should that be the case. If anyone reading this does care to do further research...God bless.

 

[TonySantiago]

One more thing I need to add.

Maybe it's a different time, but once UPON a time whenever something big happened musically radio was on top of it.

That was the case with disco and while 92/KTU was the dominant station in New York, other cities such as Boston, Washington, Los Angeles, etc had disco stations. When the 80's/90's dance music movement happened, radio was also on top of that! When hip-hop became so strong that it could no longer be "brushed off" to urban stations, radio was on top of THAT! And since this subject is about alternative, there was a time in the 90's that radio was on TOP OF THAT!!! Even Z-100 flirted with a grunge/alternative format for a bit but you had stations that were on it.

So, WHY IS IT that EDM, which is VERY popular right now amongst today's youth NOT getting that love, certainly not as quick as other genres? In part I've said that younger people have bolted radio but then I read something from Pete Tong that his "Evolution" show will be heard on 80 markets....except HERE in New York City. The closest market getting this show is POUGHKEEPSIE! (75 miles up river). Guess it helps that Drive FX is there and CC wants to compete using WPKF (96.1 Kiss).

More and more, there's something WAY deeper than just ratings and I'm going to get to the bottom of it.

 

[Dancerev889]

I'd love to see the demos of the RXP "filler format" after FM Snooze. A 2.5 6+ means nothing to the buyers and salespeople.

I do think rock would do better than EDM, both in and out of demo. I spent a lot of time in Boston and found 101.7 tough to listen to during the day, especially at 8:30 in the morning. Maybe a more mainstream dance/pop during the day and EDM at night might work better, like WFUV or WXPN do the regular AAA during the day and then more alternative at night.

I could be wrong, and this is only my opinion... I can't see the extended mixes and long cuts that are found on an EDM station working well in the short attention span PPM world.

They do make radio edits and a smart PD would cut those mixes down if they couldn't find one

 

[Jeffrey]

One more thing I need to add.

Maybe it's a different time, but once UPON a time whenever something big happened musically radio was on top of it.

That was the case with disco and while 92/KTU was the dominant station in New York, other cities such as Boston, Washington, Los Angeles, etc had disco stations. When the 80's/90's dance music movement happened, radio was also on top of that! When hip-hop became so strong that it could no longer be "brushed off" to urban stations, radio was on top of THAT! And since this subject is about alternative, there was a time in the 90's that radio was on TOP OF THAT!!! Even Z-100 flirted with a grunge/alternative format for a bit but you had stations that were on it.

So, WHY IS IT that EDM, which is VERY popular right now amongst today's youth NOT getting that love, certainly not as quick as other genres? In part I've said that younger people have bolted radio but then I read something from Pete Tong that his "Evolution" show will be heard on 80 markets....except HERE in New York City. The closest market getting this show is POUGHKEEPSIE! (75 miles up river). Guess it helps that Drive FX is there and CC wants to compete using WPKF (96.1 Kiss).

More and more, there's something WAY deeper than just ratings and I'm going to get to the bottom of it.

having nothing to do with the title of this thread and looking at this from another angle, is it possible that CHR is supporting EDM? I'm no radio advocate, although a radio nerd, I do believe it is a slowly dying medium but I will say that most of today's CHR stations fully support popular EDM. It may not be the cutting edge EDM/dance that hard core fans would want to hear but you could probably say the same thing about fans of other popular genres on the radio. You can't say that Z100 and especially 92.3 NOW isn't EDM supportive. NOW has a number of mix shows even during day parts and plays pretty much only rhythmic top 40 EDM albeit with a very commercial sound. Is it that we're actually hearing EDM stations embedded in CHR stations across the country? This may just be the new dance station..

 

[TonySantiago]

having nothing to do with the title of this thread and looking at this from another angle, is it possible that CHR is supporting EDM? I'm no radio advocate, although a radio nerd, I do believe it is a slowly dying medium but I will say that most of today's CHR stations fully support popular EDM. It may not be the cutting edge EDM/dance that hard core fans would want to hear but you could probably say the same thing about fans of other popular genres on the radio. You can't say that Z100 and especially 92.3 NOW isn't EDM supportive. NOW has a number of mix shows even during day parts and plays pretty much only rhythmic top 40 EDM albeit with a very commercial sound. Is it that we're actually hearing EDM stations embedded in CHR stations across the country? This may just be the new dance station..

You are right. EDM has become "pop" in that sense.

I do know that 92.3 Now has been VERY supportive. But I also understand that as a CHR station they also have to play Bieber, Swift and anything that isn't EDM branded. The only reason why I was pushing for further dance on Now was due to the fact that they had slipped in the ratings and the fact that Z-100 IS Z-100. Other than that, Now is CHR and have always accepted it as that. I have nothing against them whatsoever.

Granted the sound that is "EDM" is riding high. But there's still a lot of dance tracks that don't fall under that "sound" per se that could work. That's what I was thinking of in terms of a dance station. Yeah, play Calvin Harris, Zedd, but if there's a new one from Kim Sozzi or any other dance artist whose sound doesn't have that "typical" EDM flow, then sure why not I'd still would want to see that happen somehow. But once again, not complaining on "Now".

 

[WNTIRadio]

Maybe it's a different time, but once UPON a time whenever something big happened musically radio was on top of it.

That was the case with disco and while 92/KTU was the dominant station in New York, other cities such as Boston, Washington, Los Angeles, etc had disco stations.

Well, not really. WKTU Mark I was pretty late to the disco party. It wasn't until the summer of 1978 that 92.3 switched to disco. By that point, disco had been around for a few years and they jumped on it at its peak, not catching the wave as it started.

The equivalent would be if in 3 years EDM dominated record sales and a few movie soundtracks (like Saturday Night Fever) and then a station decided it was safe enough to jump on as a "mainstream" format.

CHR has moved more folk/AAA than it has been, ever. Think about it. A band that has a banjo (Mumford and Sons) topped the charts. Then you have the Lumineers, Ed Sheeran, Phillip Phillips, Adele, Fun, Of Monsters and Men. None of them are even close to EDM.

92.3 should go the direction of Hot in Boston and work in the gold portion of the library and give up on trying to out Z-100 Z-100.

 

[tjolsen]

CHR seems to me to be splitting off in to 2 separate sounds--the Electronicly driven EDM and the real folk influenced AAA/modern alternative. The idea of a top 40 station has not matched the reality of music tastes for a while, even less so now.

 

[XCountry285]

There has to be a way for Rock to thrive in NYC it needs to be programmed just right or at least like PLJ do well for suburbs of the city. Personally there's a lot of repetition in the NYC Market nearly every single station plays the same type of music. The only station with variety which I'm glad we have is Nash FM. Without Nash NYC would be playing the same Justin Timberlake song for the 6th time in an hour or the latest Bruno Mars song for the 8th time this hour or Rihanna again or Mackelmore again. Fresh Plays Bruno Mars & JT & Rihanna, PLJ plays Bruno Mars, JT, & Rihanna as does KTU, Z, Now, Lite, Power, Hot. They all play similar sounds on those stations. The only music stations that don't are: Q104.3, CBS FM, BLS (as far as I know), Mega, X, WPAT, & WQXR (obviously)

 

[luperm]

There has to be a way for Rock to thrive in NYC it needs to be programmed just right or at least like PLJ do well for suburbs of the city. Personally there's a lot of repetition in the NYC Market nearly every single station plays the same type of music. The only station with variety which I'm glad we have is Nash FM. Without Nash NYC would be playing the same Justin Timberlake song for the 6th time in an hour or the latest Bruno Mars song for the 8th time this hour or Rihanna again or Mackelmore again. Fresh Plays Bruno Mars & JT & Rihanna, PLJ plays Bruno Mars, JT, & Rihanna as does KTU, Z, Now, Lite, Power, Hot. They all play similar sounds on those stations. The only music stations that don't are: Q104.3, CBS FM, BLS (as far as I know), Mega, X, WPAT, & WQXR (obviously)

OK. And there's a good reason for all of this. Owners want formats that sell advertising. Just because you believe a format is under-served doesn't mean it's commercially viable in this market. Rock may be commercially viable in certain other markets, but it has not historically been the case here.

 

[atlantaboy]

There has to be a way for Rock to thrive in NYC it needs to be programmed just right or at least like PLJ do well for suburbs of the city. Personally there's a lot of repetition in the NYC Market nearly every single station plays the same type of music. The only station with variety which I'm glad we have is Nash FM. Without Nash NYC would be playing the same Justin Timberlake song for the 6th time in an hour or the latest Bruno Mars song for the 8th time this hour or Rihanna again or Mackelmore again. Fresh Plays Bruno Mars & JT & Rihanna, PLJ plays Bruno Mars, JT, & Rihanna as does KTU, Z, Now, Lite, Power, Hot. They all play similar sounds on those stations. The only music stations that don't are: Q104.3, CBS FM, BLS (as far as I know), Mega, X, WPAT, & WQXR (obviously)

OK. And there's a good reason for all of this. Owners want formats that sell advertising. Just because you believe a format is under-served doesn't mean it's commercially viable in this market. Rock may be commercially viable in certain other markets, but it has not historically been the case here.

Virtually every other major market (except Phoenix and San Francisco) has an Alternative station with a higher share than CBS is getting with Now 92.3 - and the problem with the Alt. station in San Fran is that CBS is programming it horribly, giving it a dance lean

If what David Eduardo says is true, and Alternative listeners tune in at home or at work just as much as listeners of any other format, any company with any sort of common sense would have flipped 92.3 to Alternative by now - again, unless there's an issue with the suburbs being serviced by different stations, or a very small number of listeners driving to work

This argument that Now is billing millions, simply because it's in New York City, doesn't make any sense to me - whatever Now is biling, that signal has the potential to bill twice as high, whatever figure that may be given the size of the NYC market - this, knowing that just like Sports, Alternative bills higher than its share because of wealthy listenership

CBS radio execs just plain do not like rock music - their CHRs lean Rhythmic, their Hot ACs lean Rhythmic, and now one of the remaining Alternative stations they own is guess what...leaning Rhythmic :

Luckily for them, they own many billion-dollar profit TV series, as well as a major national news organization, so they don't have to worry as much about radio profit

 

[chrocket87]

A couple issues with your post, and I'm sure Mr. Eduardo can clear these up:
1. 6+ numbers are worthless as is, they have no influence on any part of the radio business. It's even more worthless to compare 6+ numbers in different cities. For example, the Adult Hits station in Cleveland has a 7.2 share, which would be tied with the share of WLTW, #1 in NYC 6+. By that point, why the hell isn't Jack back in NYC?
2. I read a few months ago that Alternative had an average power ratio of 1.07, meaning it bills slightly above it's share on average. The bulk of the format's listeners, including myself, are under 30. I don't know where you're getting this "wealthy listenership" from.
3. Alternative has no history of success in NYC since Stern left WXRK. Would you be willing to risk millions of your own money on an investment that has no track record of success in the various attempts it's had in that specific location, when you're already turning a known profit with what you have?
4. If you look at the most recent 10-K for CBS, you'll see that the division where radio is housed is quite profitable. Cumulus is not and will have to take out even more debt or get a taxpayer bailout to keep going as is.

 

[Barry]

A couple issues with your post, and I'm sure Mr. Eduardo can clear these up:
3. Alternative has no history of success in NYC since Stern left WXRK. Would you be willing to risk millions of your own money on an investment that has no track record of success in the various attempts it's had in that specific location, when you're already turning a known profit with what you have?

This and similar recent posts arguing that the major NYC stations are unlikely to flip to alternative or any other format that is not very mainstream anytime soon make a lot of sense.
But if Cumulus goes ahead and moves WFAS into New York, we then have in essence a new station. And I recall that Cumulus CEO Lew Dickey not too long ago has expressed interest in creating a rock brand, perhaps along the lines of the new Nash country station branding. And they do retain the WRXP calls, which they inexplicably used on 94.7 in January.
As WFAS would have a signal that is limited compared with the major stations, perhaps a format that is somewhat different such as modern rock would make sense, as it would not be able to compete with them on the more lucrative formats.