Rock in New York City

[atlantaboy]

That is ratings performance. The purpose of a commercial radio station is not to get big ratings. It is to make money.

WRFF underperforms in converting the audience they have into revenues. Period.

I feel like I've already explained this...

Revenues do not cause a station to make money - profits cause a station to make money

You don't have any information on WRFF's expenses compared to its income - and like I explained before, Alternative stations tend not to spend millions of dollars on advertising, so they can have a larger profit margin that stations with huge billing and huge advertising expenses - rather than sponsoring their own events, they tend to show up at concerts/festivals that already exist in that market - rather than spending huge amounts of money attracting listeners, they tend to let listeners discover them through word of mouth, social networking sites, etc.

This is still assuming that your billing stats on WRFF are correct, and that they are measured in a consistent way among all stations in the market - and that there is now way billing could be misreported, miscalculated, or estimated

Again, WRFF is 1st 18-34 and 3rd 25-54 - if it truly ranked 18th in profit, that story would be huge, and people on the Philadelphia board would certainly be aware of it

And the last thing Clear Channel would do in that situation is start up a new station with that exact same template which, according to you, is a recipe for financial disaster

And sorry, but the bit you wrote about advertisers having a negative stereotype of Alternative listeners, and therefore not wanting to advertise their products on Alt. stations is absolutely ridiculous - you would have to prove that Alternative listeners are less likely to purchase products than listeners of other formats, and, again, Alternative listeners tend to be upper/middle class, split male/female, and have more disposable income - and, again, if that were true, KROQ wouldn't be billing as high as it does

 

[chrocket87]

Alternative stations don't spend money on advertising? Let's use Radio 104.5 as an example:
Radio 104.5 Summer Block Party concerts= Paid promotion
Radio 104.5 Birthday Show= Paid promotion
When they give away tickets over the air, at outside events, etc.= Paid promotion
Most stations have billboards throughout their respective metro areas= Paid promotion
Just because a station doesn't run a TV campaign doesn't mean it doesn't pay to promote itself.

Unless you happen to work for CC/Philadelphia, there is no one on these boards that knows how profitable a station is. It could be very profitable. It could be losing money. We have no idea. If Radio 104.5 was 18th or 1st in profit, it wouldn't be a big story because CC won't disclose those numbers either way.

 

[davideduardo]

Revenues do not cause a station to make money - profits cause a station to make money

Actually, it should read "revenues do not indicate profitability."

Your statement of "profits cause a station to make money" is downright laughable. Profits are the result of making (more) money (than there are expenses).

Profits don't cause anything here. They are the effect of an efficient operation.

You don't have any information on WRFF's expenses compared to its income

No, and except at the very moment of a station sale, under non-disclosure, profits on individual clusters and stations are not revealed save to a select few in the ownership and management circles. Most of the staff of a station has no idea of the profitability of the station they themselves work for.

And that is why the attainable data about billings is used as the ongoing metric... and why it is vastly and overwhelmingly preferred over ratings as a business measurement.

and like I explained before, Alternative stations tend not to spend millions of dollars on advertising,

Stations don't generally spend "millions" on advertising.

THere would perhaps be the exception in Philadelphia of WBEB, which likely does spend over a million a year. It's been part of their management style for decades. But WBEB bills $24 million... six times the revenue of WRFF... and they can afford it and they convert it to revenue with an advertiser-friendly format, high ratings, and a power ratio of 1.15. They have been doing it forever.

There are two rock stations way ahead of WRFF in billings: WMMR and WMGK. One does about $23 million and the other does $15 million. Together, they suck about 90% of the rock revenue out of the Philadelphia market. Greater Media, the owner, is committed to those two rock variants, and both are established; under Peter Smyth, a great corporate management guy, there is a commitment and belief in the formats.

Together, WMMR and WMGK take about 10 shares 12+. Together, they are on an ongoing average, #1 and #3 in men in just about any sales demo.

Agencies don't generally buy a single format 3 deep. WRFF, whatever its ratings, doesn't get on the buy in Philadelphia, because Greater Media comes to the table with two great, established and consistent products.

Obviously, you have never sold radio in a transactional environment. I have. I would not like to sell a stand-alone "newcomer" with no morning show and no image against the monsters of Greater Media.

so they can have a larger profit margin that stations with huge billing and huge advertising expenses - rather than sponsoring their own events, they tend to show up at concerts/festivals that already exist in that market - rather than spending huge amounts of money attracting listeners, they tend to let listeners discover them through word of mouth, social networking sites, etc.

Translation: WRFF is the odd man out in the CC cluster. They get no budget, no commitment and no staff. So they try to ride on the coattails of a few events and get some FB likes and such. BFD.

Again, WRFF is 1st 18-34 and 3rd 25-54 - if it truly ranked 18th in profit, that story would be huge, and people on the Philadelphia board would certainly be aware of it

It's no that unusual. I told you of a different case... WDUV in Tampa which has been #1 for the better part of two decades, yet is #14 in billing. Not all formats are created alike.

Of course, we have the opposite, too. An example: WGN in Chicago, at around 20th in 25-54. But it is 3rd in billings with a huge $30 million in revenue.

Ratings don't always indicate revenue.

 

[atlantaboy]

Ratings don't always indicate revenue.

I'm not sure how many times we need to tell you that revenue is not profit

http://radiodiscussions.com/smf/index.php?topic=235762.0

WRFF is a profitable format, and a profitable station, period - and among Philadelphia radio listeners 18-34, Alternative is the most popular format - and among Philadelphia radio listeners 25-54, Alternative is the third most popular format

You are sitting on this board all day long, arguing with every little fact being presented that would support the Alternative format in NYC - according to you, Clear Channel lacks common sense, Arbitron demo breakdowns have no meaning, AllAccess is flawed in its analysis of radio, advertisers are prejudiced against Alternative radio listeners, it goes on and on - you have access to stats which only people in the industry pay for, so I have absolutely no doubt that you are connected in some fashion to CBS radio (the only alternative would be that you work or have worked for Clear Channel, which you have criticized repeatedly, or that you're making up the stats)

 

[uncamark]

Ratings don't always indicate revenue.

I'm not sure how many times we need to tell you that revenue is not profit

http://radiodiscussions.com/smf/index.php?topic=235762.0

WRFF is a profitable format, and a profitable station, period - and among Philadelphia radio listeners 18-34, Alternative is the most popular format - and among Philadelphia radio listeners 25-54, Alternative is the third most popular format

You are sitting on this board all day long, arguing with every little fact being presented that would support the Alternative format in NYC - you have access to stats which only people in the industry pay for, so I have absolutely no doubt that you are connected in some fashion to CBS radio (the only alternative would be that you work or have worked for Clear Channel, which you have criticized repeatedly)

There are other companies besides CBS and CC--and David has stated more than once that he does not work for CBS. Why would he lie?

 

[atlantaboy]

Ratings don't always indicate revenue.

I'm not sure how many times we need to tell you that revenue is not profit

http://radiodiscussions.com/smf/index.php?topic=235762.0

WRFF is a profitable format, and a profitable station, period - and among Philadelphia radio listeners 18-34, Alternative is the most popular format - and among Philadelphia radio listeners 25-54, Alternative is the third most popular format

You are sitting on this board all day long, arguing with every little fact being presented that would support the Alternative format in NYC - you have access to stats which only people in the industry pay for, so I have absolutely no doubt that you are connected in some fashion to CBS radio (the only alternative would be that you work or have worked for Clear Channel, which you have criticized repeatedly)

There are other companies besides CBS and CC--and David has stated more than once that he does not work for CBS. Why would he lie?

Because (I believe) CBS, someone affiliated with CBS, or a friend who works for CBS asked him to stay on the board 24/7 to be sure that popular opinion would not swing in favor of flipping Now to Alternative - of course he'd have to deny it

They did the same thing with a thread criticizing them for flipping Dave FM in Atlanta to Sports - the poster would not budge, no matter what was proven during the thread, and responded to posts within 10 minutes, all day long, 7 days a week

 

[davideduardo]

I'm not sure how many times we need to tell you that revenue is not profit

I have agreed on this, even after I had to explain to you the difference between gross billings and bottom line profit which you did not understand at all.

There is no source, paid or otherwise, for station by station profit data. In fact, we have divergent opinions on whether we want to look at BCF, EBITDA or after-tax profits

So the metric for radio, as a business, is billings.

WRFF is a profitable format, and a profitable station, period

We don't know that. At $4 million, they likely make some money but not a lot. The fixed costs for a station in that market are not low, even with a small on air staff. They pay a portion of rent, they share insurance costs, management and back office expense, engineering, utilities, legal costs, various taxes and licences, etc. Just the sales expense on $4 million is likely to be in the $800,000 range if any significant portion is agency driven. That starts to make the profit margin, if any, look pretty slim.

In any case, "formats" are not profitable per se. There are cases of profitability and lack of same in every format

So I have absolutely no doubt that you are connected in some fashion to CBS radio (the only alternative would be that you work or have worked for Clear Channel, which you have criticized repeatedly)

I've never worked for Clear, although I know a lot of folks there from Lowry, Mark and Randall on down the corporate ladder of the past and the present.

And I have no connection, save a number of friendships, with CBS.

As stated many, many times before, the link below plus a click on the "Webmaster" button on the top menu will reveal, like a Houdini illusion, everything.

 

[chrocket87]

He works for a competitor. What part of that is so hard for you to comprehend? We know pizza delivery guys like you don't need to worry about non-competes, but taking any money from another company would get him in huge trouble. Again, CBS is not worried about Internet fanboys who have no radio business knowledge outside of AllAccess, so I'm not sure why he would lie for CBS when he has nothing to gain from it.

 

[davideduardo]

He works for a competitor. What part of that is so hard for you to comprehend? We know pizza delivery guys like you don't need to worry about non-competes, but taking any money from another company would get him in huge trouble. Again, CBS is not worried about Internet fanboys who have no radio business knowledge outside of AllAccess, so I'm not sure why he would lie for CBS when he has nothing to gain from it.

This discussion has made me understand why my dog will hold a bone in its mouth for hours and hours, neither chewing it nor putting it down.

It's the thrill of tenacity... of having and knowing you have it... like hanging on in this argument.

It's fun, even if the end result is zero.

 

[davideduardo]

Interestingly, there is a post in the WBAI thread where some Pacifica spokesperson is quoted as saying that if donations don't materialize, the station will have to shut down.

Ta-dah.

WBAI is in the commercial part of the band. It does not have to be a non-commercial station. It is the biggest single hope for partisans of an alternative rock format in New York.

It's a pure stick, with no cash-flowing format already in operation. Any format on the channel has start-up costs, so the playing field is level for any viable format... alternative, maybe dance, even a swap with Nash for the ESB signal, with the current Nash signal going alternative for the suburban areas.

Any of those scenarios can be rationalized. Any of them can be put into a spreadsheet and used to further the implementation of an unavailable format. Here, alternative looks like the best of several choices (Sorry, Tony Santiago... I think alternative beats dance in ratings and revenue potential here).

 

[Barry]

Cumulus appears to offer the best opportunity for rock fans in New York. CEO Lew Dickey has indicated he is interested in a rock brand, like they now have for country with Nash.
Perhaps they will move WFAS FM into the Bronx, flip it to alternative or some other form of modern rock, and hope they can eventually use it in trade for WBAI.
My question for David, do you believe WFAS would be more profitable if it is moved in and changed to alternative, or would it be better off as is, one of two A/C stations (along with WHUD) serving the Westchester County area?

 

[davideduardo]

Cumulus appears to offer the best opportunity for rock fans in New York. CEO Lew Dickey has indicated he is interested in a rock brand, like they now have for country with Nash.
Perhaps they will move WFAS FM into the Bronx, flip it to alternative or some other form of modern rock, and hope they can eventually use it in trade for WBAI.
My question for David, do you believe WFAS would be more profitable if it is moved in and changed to alternative, or would it be better off as is, one of two A/C stations (along with WHUD) serving the Westchester County area?

I don't have much experience with suburban operations, so my perspective is limited. However, the once successful suburban model has been, by all reports, severely impacted by the loss of local business as the big boxes and malls moved in. There is just not as big a revenue base, even if the suburban area is considered "affluent" or upscale.

There is a difference between the limited coverage suburban AM or Class A FM and a full signal that concentrates on the suburbs, even if it also covers the central city... WPLJ being the example.

The stations with small suburban signals don't look to be the opportunity they once were. My bet would be on the move being positive... but the choice is some kind of ethnic or niche offering or an unserved segment like alternative. Neither is too exciting on a small stick.

 

[hubcity]

Interestingly, there is a post in the WBAI thread where some Pacifica spokesperson is quoted as saying that if donations don't materialize, the station will have to shut down.

Ta-dah.

WBAI is in the commercial part of the band. It does not have to be a non-commercial station. It is the biggest single hope for partisans of an alternative rock format in New York.

It's a pure stick, with no cash-flowing format already in operation. Any format on the channel has start-up costs, so the playing field is level for any viable format... alternative, maybe dance, even a swap with Nash for the ESB signal, with the current Nash signal going alternative for the suburban areas.

Any of those scenarios can be rationalized. Any of them can be put into a spreadsheet and used to further the implementation of an unavailable format. Here, alternative looks like the best of several choices (Sorry, Tony Santiago... I think alternative beats dance in ratings and revenue potential here).

I'll go over to that thread to speculate on whether the donations will materialize (short form: they will) but if they don't, I'll bet on dance. Gut instinct: dance fans tolerate advertising better.

 

[atlantaboy]

He works for a competitor. What part of that is so hard for you to comprehend?

Lol, and you know this how?

And BTW, working for any station in a particular market makes your opinion biased in terms of other formats that are introduced that might compete with your own, pressure to flip one of your stations, etc. - that would include working for Emmis

 

[atlantaboy]

Anyhow, if Lew Dickey of Cumulus has expressed interest in the Alternative format in NYC, obviously he sees the financial value of the format, just as Clear Channel does, just as Arbitron demo rankings do, and just as AllAccess PPM anaylsis articles do

Which means that all the sources I've cited, as well as two of the three major radio corporations, agree that there is great profitability in the Alternative format - and that's all that matters

 

[chrocket87]

He works for a competitor. What part of that is so hard for you to comprehend?

Lol, and you know this how?

And BTW, working for any station in a particular market makes your opinion biased in terms of other formats that are introduced that might compete with your own, pressure to flip one of your stations, etc. - that would include working for Emmis

If you bothered to read his bio, he works with Spanish radio stations. I think we can all agree that Now is more of a competitor to Spanish stations than any rock format. Again, he has nothing to gain from "lying" for CBS.

 

[chrocket87]

Anyhow, if Lew Dickey of Cumulus has expressed interest in the Alternative format in NYC, obviously he sees the financial value of the format, just as Clear Channel does, just as Arbitron demo rankings do, and just as AllAccess PPM anaylsis articles do

Which means that all the sources I've cited, as well as two of the three major radio corporations, agree that there is great profitability in the Alternative format - and that's all that matters

Lol, demo ratings and PPM analysis measure ratings, not revenue or profit. The sources you've cited suggest the stations can have ratings success, not financial success.

 

[atlantaboy]

Anyhow, if Lew Dickey of Cumulus has expressed interest in the Alternative format in NYC, obviously he sees the financial value of the format, just as Clear Channel does, just as Arbitron demo rankings do, and just as AllAccess PPM anaylsis articles do

Which means that all the sources I've cited, as well as two of the three major radio corporations, agree that here is great profitability in the Alternative format - and that's all that matters

Lol, demo ratings and PPM analysis measure ratings, not revenue or profit. The sources you've cited suggest the stations can have ratings success, not financial success.

Lol, both Clear Channel and Cumulus believe Alternative stations breed financial success - there's no evidence that they don't, since no one has posted any information about profit, and the idea that WRFF is 1st 18-34 and 3rd 25-54, and somehow manages to come in near to dead last in profit, is ludicrous - especially, since, as you know, Clear Channel used that exact same template when they flipped a Rhythmic CHR to Alternative in Atlanta

It's two major radio corporations, AllAccess, Arbitron (including demo breakdowns), and frankly, common sense vs. you and David, who may or may not have alterior motives - and obviously, if David works with Spanish radio stations, they may be concerned about one of these stations flipping to Alternative

We'll see what happens in NYC in the coming months

 

[davideduardo]

[
He works for a competitor. What part of that is so hard for you to comprehend?

Lol, and you know this how?

Likely, Reuben, he did, now or in the past, what I recommended to you lest you continue to make incorrect statements about my interests in the subject.... 1. click on the link at the bottom of this post. 2. When my home page appears, click "webmaster" at the top right. 3) select the bio option.

And BTW, working for any station in a particular market makes your opinion biased in terms of other formats that are introduced that might compete with your own, pressure to flip one of your stations, etc. - that would include working for Emmis

I haven't worked for Emmis for a decade. And I have been through 6 formats on 3 stations in NYC in the last 15 years... I can tell you that alternative on a competitor would only be a beenfit to me, not a difficulty.

 

[chrocket87]

Using AllAccess as a basis for determining if a format should change is analogous to getting an Associate's in Biology and being qualified to practice medicine. Would you see a doctor with only an Associate's degree?

We have no idea how profitable any station is. Not WRFF. Not KROQ. Not Z-100. Not even WTOP. Why? Because companies don't share that information. Im sure WRFF makes at least some profit because no company with any sort of business sense would allow a station to lose money for six years and not make a flip. How much profit is debatable, but, again, no one on these boards knows. That said, common sense says their profits are likely very low when you're only billing $4.2 million in a top ten market. Again, ratings don't always equal revenue or profit, as this case clearly demonstrates.

And clearly those two major radio companies disagree with you about Alternative in New York City, as neither of them appear to have the format in NYC or look ready to flip an existing property to it. I think Cumulus may flip WFAS in the near future, but it won't cover much of the market, so I don't think many in the market will ever hear it (like the 99x translator). I think the only chance of a market covering Alternative in the near future will come when WBAI gets sold.