AM 950. Bad signal. No significant promotion. Failure. Sell the station to St. John Fisher. What's going to be different with Entercom's next format du jour? Go Caribbean, go Spanish, go Festiva, go Sports. What's the difference? A signal that cannot be heard and a company that isn't committed to staffing and operating the radio station on anything other than life support? La misma mierde, differente pero.
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Rumor Mill: WROC-AM Dumping Progressive Talk?
- Thread starter dampier
- Start date
aaronread said:Well hell, if you're gonna sell it to a college, why not sell it WEOS/HWS? Give WXXI a little competition!If I had the money, you bet yer ass I'd buy it...
I'm all for giving WXXI competition, but if WEOS has the money why waste it on an AM station whose signal can't reach across the street? Instead go for an FM, perhaps one the former CBS stations recently sold to Stephens Media Company (or what ever they are called).
Besides to you think that "Stormin Norman" is going to allow competition against WXXI in his own market? Hell No! Quite the opposite. He might start a capital campaign to buy your operation instead. He already has his mitts on WRUR and the Houghton station, so why not advance east to Geneva? I know at one time he expressed an interest in buying the non-com station in Greece, but that didn't happen. So at least Jack Mindy and company still have their jobs.
And you can include me amongst those with a low opinion of congress. Nothing has really changed since January 2007. Of course ,the senate is almost evenly divided between democrats and republicans and senate republicans in 2007 set a record for filibusters.
WEOS shouldn't be allowed in the rochester market. How about a local community group getting a station? What we need is more community radio and less non for profit corporate radio. There is some optimism that during the next adminstration LPFM can finally happen in metro markets. I know McCain is in favor of it and I doubt Obama is opposed. I think this is a better idea than trying to ban people like Lonsberry from the local airwaves. Let people like him continue to talk trash, but let some other voices be heard, even if only on low power stations.
Buffalo has two non-commercial radio stations with different formats, so what's preventing the same thing happening in Rochester? When in Buffalo on business I like some of the talk formats they air, or if I'm tired of talk, there is some decent music. On AM 1370 from 10-2pm you either have to listen to Diane Rehm or Bob Smith and, no offense, there are days those shows are down right boring to the point I have to change the channel. I for one would be happy to donate money if WEOS decided to purchase a radio station in Rochester. After all if WAMC and WXXI can either buy other stations in different markets, or take over programming, what's to prevent WEOS or even WRVO from doing the same thing?
The Voice of Reason said:
In fairness, there are other public radio choices in the Rochester market during those hours, too. On WRUR, Scott Regan's "Open Tunings" runs from 9-noon, where it's found an audience that wanted AAA music that wasn't available anywhere else in town. U of R student DJs follow Scott at noon. Julia Figueras is playing classical on WXXI-FM during those hours, while "On Point" (from WBUR), NPR's "Day to Day" and "News and Notes" are on 91.5-HD3. And outside the WXXI orbit, Rob Linton and Phil Dodd are spinning jazz on WGMC.
I'm not seeing where Rochester listeners have fewer choices than their Buffalo brethren - the 91.5-HD3 schedule closely parallels what WNED-AM is offering during those midday hours, while both WBFO and WGMC are playing jazz and WNED-FM and WXXI-FM are playing classical. Ditto Syracuse - WRVO runs Diane Rehm in parallel with 1370, then Fresh Air at noon and Day to Day at 1, while WAER plays jazz and WCNY-FM is classical.
Is the issue simply with who's in charge of each of those outlets? That's separate from programming - except to the extent that in too many markets with multiple public radio owners, there's a tremendous amount of (wasteful, IMO) duplication during prime listening hours - two stations carrying ME and ATC in Buffalo and Syracuse, and even greater duplication in, say, Boston between WBUR and WGBH. Does that really serve listeners any better?
Scott Fybush said:
Mr. Fybush:
It should be pointed out to those posters not familiar with the Rochester market that WRUR has strong connections with WXXI. That could be the reason that the husband of WXXI's station manager is the host of WRUR's morning program. I am not saying that Scott Regan isn't doing a good job, but nepotism shouldn't be a factor in someone being hired, don't you agree?
For the many thousands of people who don't have HD radio, the programs you mention that are being carried on WXXI-HD can not be heard by a majority of listeners.
Another NPR station in Rochester could provide what is sorely needed in this market; real competition. For example I read where NPR is planning to, or already has launched a new morning show. That would be competition for Morning Edition. WXXI does not carry "On Point" on 1370, a show that another NPR affiliate could carry. I remember many years ago WXXI-AM carried its own locally-produced news hour. Maybe another station could do the same thing since WXXI opted to drop that local show in favor of running ATC and then Marketplace. While 1370 Connection does provide a local prospective when it comes to issues facing the Rochester community, it is also the lowest rated daily program on WXXI. Would it hurt listeners to have another locally-produced talk program with a different host? Personally I don't think so. In fact the competition would benefit both stations.
I understand where you are coming from, and have great respect for the work you do in reporting on the media, not just here in Rochester, but across New York State and the rest of the country. But I must agree to disagree. Yes there are stations like WGMC which offers jazz and other alternative programming. As for classical music, I find the station in Toronto (CFMX) far superior when it comes to the selection of music it plays versus WXXI-FM. In reality I know that WEOS or WRVO will never penetrate the Rochester market to the point of being real competition for WXXI. It is just a personal desire of mine to give Rochester public radio listeners more than just one option.
B
Bob1370
Guest
"While 1370 Connection does provide a local prospective when it comes to issues facing the Rochester community, it is also the lowest rated daily program on WXXI"
Voice of Reason needs to re-consult his rating books, assuming he has them...that is VERY far from true.
Voice of Reason needs to re-consult his rating books, assuming he has them...that is VERY far from true.
The Voice of Reason said:
Actually, this is such a red herring. Scott could walk away tomorrow or be replaced and there would still be Open Tunings, with a new host. Scott pretty much volunteered for this position, and it stuck with the audience. He was kept on under contract, based on this. Nepotism had nothing to do with it.
So, WXXI should drop what shows for On Point or Day to Day? With limited time in a day, where would you propose these go and not alienate a loyal audience for Diane Rheem or TOTN? As Scott mentioned, these are available on HD3, and in some cases, Sirius. And while you mention another station picking up NPR, I don't think you understand what they would need to do to qualify. It is not that simple. And to be honest, what would prevent the "other" NPR station from just simulcasting ATC and ME? This already happens in Syracuse, so the listeners there are not getting the benefits you propose for a 2nd NPR station in Rochester. A simulcast of WRVO or WEOS will just get you dulplicated hours of ME, TOTN, ATC and other programs. To be honest, there already are 3 NPR stations, as WXXI-FM is an NPR member, and WRUR has access to NPR programming. Also, NPR's other morning show, the BPP, has been airing in on WXXI-FM HD3 since October. NPR is canceling that program effective this Friday, which IMHO, is horrible for the listeners. As for another station hosting a daily Rochester oriented talk show, this would be fine in Rochester. Who is going to do that? And keep in mind, how is it to be funded? As for the locally produced news hour, this is a staffing and funding issue. An hour daily news program would require at least double the current WXXI news department, and that is just for the regular grind. Since the current afternoon and morning hosts also file stories, you would also look to an Anchor position, not to mention some additional support staff. This would be quite the budget breaker in good economic times for a non-commercial station, let alone the tighter times we have now. Also, I question your data on ratings for public radio stations.
That is great. However, do you have the checkbook to do this? On what station? Keep in mind the 7-8 figure purchase price for radio stations, plus the ongoing operational costs including the programming, which could run into the six figures alone without blinking and you have to have a hefty budget to do this. It just is not as simple as you make it out to be, which is what I think Scott was getting at.
The Voice of Reason said:
I respect that desire, and understand where you're coming from, too. Let me put this question to you, though - assuming someone other than WXXI were willing to go through all the hurdles required for NPR membership (minimum staff size and budget, which are not insubstantial, and minimum listenership levels), and were willing to pony up the cash required for NPR programming (also not insubstantial), what would be that new station's motivation NOT to run ME and ATC right up against 1370/88.5? That pattern has proven itself in many markets with "competing" public radio outlets - not just WNED/WBFO or WRVO/WAER but in places like LA (KPCC/KCRW), San Francisco (KQED/KALW) and Seattle (KPLU/KUOW) - and it almost always ends up with way more duplication of programming than you'd ever have if the multiple outlets were under common management.
So, no, I don't think "competition" in the public radio arena is always a good thing. Experience has shown otherwise - and I know that even in Buffalo, where the WBFO/WNED rivalry is generally a very polite and congenial one, there have been talks in the past about merging news operations. Those talks wouldn't have happened if the competition there were an ideal situation, would they?
And thank goodness they are...I respect Diane a lot, but I personally just don't dig the show that much. Been working a later shift a lot as of late, and I like being able to get a "taste of the old country" (I moved here from Boston) with OnPoint on my commute from Brighton to Geneva in the mornings.
To get back to the discussion, I'm not sure it's something that can be easily quantified, but there is a definite difference when you've got two major NPR outlets in the same market that are direct competitors. I think it's great that WXXI has diversified as much as it has across 1370AM, 91.5-1, -2, and -3...plus WRUR...but it's nigh-impossible to have that same level of self-introspection when you're by yourself vs. when some cross-town competitor is kicking your butt in the ratings. :
Having that external motivation can be a powerful incentive to overcome institution inertia, and nobody who's worked for a public radio station is going to deny that there isn't a lot of inertia inherent to the biz. Case in point: while I don't think it's been a rousing success, I applaud WGBH for trying to revamp their schedule and better compete with WBUR. Similarly, I really applaud WUMB for having the cojones to scrap their entire brand and re-do it from the ground up (to marked success, from what I hear about their last pledge week).The downside, as has been mentioned by Scott, is there does tend to be a lot more duplication of the core NPR programs. By itself this isn't necessarily bad...especially if the shows are on at different times...but often it is done without care. Not to throw the stones too hard here, but let's not forget that both Morning Edition and All Things Considered are on WXXI-AM, WXXI-FM HD2, and on WRUR. That's not duplication? (mind you, I know some of the reasons why that arrangement is the way it is, and I'm not saying it could easily be done any other way...I'm just oversimplifying to demonstrate a point)
To put this in perspective...why doesn't WXXI air Democracy Now? I assume it's the same reason why WSKG refused (and continues to refuse) to do so: the show's "journalism" is pretty advocate instead of objective. And there's a host of technical reasons not to air it. And it can be a real turn-off for some more centric NPR listeners. Hell, I personally can't stand the show. But it gets good ratings and our listeners LOVE it. And there's been a substantial group clamoring for it. So if WEOS ever had a Rochester outlet, you bet your ass we'd air it up there. And Free Speech Radio News, and a host of other, smaller, more "fringe" shows that appeal to that audience.
As much as I would love to have an outlet for my show in the Flower City, I know it will never happen. I just can't see WEOS, WRVO, or WAMC expanding into the Rochester market.
I'd like to expand on something Mr. Giardina said earlier in this thread. He mentioned that WXXI would never another NPR station to enter the market. To that end, couldn't they make the core NPR shows "market exclusive" to the WXXI stations?
If this is the case, then any new public radio station in Rochester would have to find A LOT of alternative programming to fill its schedule. And, with NPR, PRI, and APM (American Public Media) programming pretty much spoken for in this area, that doesn't leave a whole lot left for a new station to pick up, except for maybe Pacifica Radio, World Radio Network, and that station's own locally produced music/specialty programs. None of these alternatives will draw enough listeners away from NPR to make the investment worthwhile I'm afraid.
If it's any consolation, I'd like to point out that there are still a handful of opportunities for community members to have access to the airwaves in Rochester, which I assume is what Voice of Reason is ultimately advocating here. WGMC, WBER, and WITR are always looking for volunteers, providing that your show fits their format, of course.
Then, too, there is internet radio, a frontier which I believe is sitll vastly unexplored. Popularity for internet based stations is slowly but surely growing. Some point down the line, there may come a time where it is viable to launch a web based community access radio station for Rochester (or indeed any other city for that matter). If this happens, I think we may finally have a solution to the problem of not enough local programming in the market. Of course, the quality of said programming is debatable.
I'd like to expand on something Mr. Giardina said earlier in this thread. He mentioned that WXXI would never another NPR station to enter the market. To that end, couldn't they make the core NPR shows "market exclusive" to the WXXI stations?
If this is the case, then any new public radio station in Rochester would have to find A LOT of alternative programming to fill its schedule. And, with NPR, PRI, and APM (American Public Media) programming pretty much spoken for in this area, that doesn't leave a whole lot left for a new station to pick up, except for maybe Pacifica Radio, World Radio Network, and that station's own locally produced music/specialty programs. None of these alternatives will draw enough listeners away from NPR to make the investment worthwhile I'm afraid.
If it's any consolation, I'd like to point out that there are still a handful of opportunities for community members to have access to the airwaves in Rochester, which I assume is what Voice of Reason is ultimately advocating here. WGMC, WBER, and WITR are always looking for volunteers, providing that your show fits their format, of course.
Then, too, there is internet radio, a frontier which I believe is sitll vastly unexplored. Popularity for internet based stations is slowly but surely growing. Some point down the line, there may come a time where it is viable to launch a web based community access radio station for Rochester (or indeed any other city for that matter). If this happens, I think we may finally have a solution to the problem of not enough local programming in the market. Of course, the quality of said programming is debatable.
Meanwhile, back at the radio ranch...
How about if we get back to the real question:
What can they program that will bring in enough money to make the station viable?
How about if we get back to the real question:
What can they program that will bring in enough money to make the station viable?
Getting back to the original title of this string, I've gotten inside word that WROC will change to another format on September 1st. No official word on the new format -- All Sports sounds about right.
They also will be changing format on September 1st, 2010, September 1st, 2012 and on December 31st, 2012 they will officially be putting the station off the air forever because they don't want to pay the electric bill anymore. A final day on the air nostalgia show with former 950 WBBF DJ's will not happen because that would cost too much.
(ok, this last paragraph is a psychic prediction...or is it?)
They also will be changing format on September 1st, 2010, September 1st, 2012 and on December 31st, 2012 they will officially be putting the station off the air forever because they don't want to pay the electric bill anymore. A final day on the air nostalgia show with former 950 WBBF DJ's will not happen because that would cost too much.
(ok, this last paragraph is a psychic prediction...or is it?)
JakeLongwell said:
For the record, NPR does not allow for market exclusivity. If you're an NPR member station, you have the rights to all programming offered by NPR. The only public radio program that is market exclusive, as far as I know, is Prairie Home Companion. A program such as Marketplace has timeslot exclusivity but can be run at another time if a second APM affiliate chooses to add it to its schedule.
Returning to the original subject, I know all about WROC’s poor signal and zero promotion, to which I’ll add the worst technical housekeeping of any station I’ve heard – silences, overlapping audio and gross mistiming of segments of tape-delayed shows, leaving listeners hanging in mid-topic at the top or bottom of the hour. I agree that no format can survive all those limitations, but I also think that with pride in its operation, WROC could have built a decent-sized progressive talk audience despite its bad signal. Its slipshod technical standards suggest that Entercom views progressive talk in Rochester as a tax write-off.
As a mere listener, I care neither about WROC the station nor about what format it might flip to. I care about progressive radio as programming. Public radio, however valuable in its own right, doesn’t fill that particular role.
SirRoxalot notwithstanding, Rochester’s progressive audience is grossly underserved. Even the most willing listeners won’t reward a station with good ratings if they have to suffer the abysmal technical quality-control that WROC foists on them.
How can a politically closely balanced community get a semblance of balance on talk radio? Will another station consider progressive talk, or might the managers of conservative talk stations look in the mirror and ask whom they serve with their more toxic characters? I cannot believe that Michael Savage makes serious money for WHAM, or that Ed Schultz or Rachel Maddow couldn’t beat the heck out of his numbers on the same station in the same time slot.
Besides WROC’s deficiencies locally, a massive thumb heavily tips the scales against progressive talk nationally. Many stations that run shows like Limbaugh and Hannity don’t want the competition. Why? Because they are under the same corporate ownership as those shows. Conflict of interest anyone?
As your customer, I’m still waiting for you broadcasters to get out of your bubble long enough to provide ideas about who will step up to the plate to serve Rochester’s progressive audience AND really care about doing so. If nobody steps up, then WiFi and/or satellite radio await. One day, too late, you’ll wake up and find that conservative talk is to radio what SUVs have become to Detroit.
Over to you.
As a mere listener, I care neither about WROC the station nor about what format it might flip to. I care about progressive radio as programming. Public radio, however valuable in its own right, doesn’t fill that particular role.
SirRoxalot notwithstanding, Rochester’s progressive audience is grossly underserved. Even the most willing listeners won’t reward a station with good ratings if they have to suffer the abysmal technical quality-control that WROC foists on them.
How can a politically closely balanced community get a semblance of balance on talk radio? Will another station consider progressive talk, or might the managers of conservative talk stations look in the mirror and ask whom they serve with their more toxic characters? I cannot believe that Michael Savage makes serious money for WHAM, or that Ed Schultz or Rachel Maddow couldn’t beat the heck out of his numbers on the same station in the same time slot.
Besides WROC’s deficiencies locally, a massive thumb heavily tips the scales against progressive talk nationally. Many stations that run shows like Limbaugh and Hannity don’t want the competition. Why? Because they are under the same corporate ownership as those shows. Conflict of interest anyone?
As your customer, I’m still waiting for you broadcasters to get out of your bubble long enough to provide ideas about who will step up to the plate to serve Rochester’s progressive audience AND really care about doing so. If nobody steps up, then WiFi and/or satellite radio await. One day, too late, you’ll wake up and find that conservative talk is to radio what SUVs have become to Detroit.
Over to you.
Seems to me that 1kW directional on 950 AM is a waste of RF in 2008. Sixty miles west on I-90, a 50kW blowtorch that runs progressive talk can't get arrested. I guess I'm one of 27 people who occasionally listens to KB, sometimes out of nostalgia as much as to hear Ed Schultz. If a 50kW signal in Buffalo isn't cutting it with progressive talk, what can a highly directional kiloWatter in Rochester be expected to do? As Uncle Oskie says of bad business deals and impractical jobs, "it's a tree a dog wouldn't p*ss on."
I have to agree with Mr. Radknowski a that progressive talk format doesn't seem to be drawing an audience, even on a 50kw station, which negates the claim nobody listens because they can't hear the signal.
It all comes down to dollars and cents. Conservative talk shows seem to draw an audience, which in turn draws advertisers; at least in this market, and I'm pretty sure Buffalo as well. Even during visits to my family in Corning I've never heard a station carry any progressive talk.
Someone mentioned the idea of buying WROC and keeping the progressive talk format.
IMHO it would be a waste of investor's money. It's like buying a Hummer of Escalante' and expecting to get 40 miles to the gallon of gasoline.
The only format I think that would make money on WROC is religion. I mean the station has tried almost every other format and nothing seems to work. The only time in recent memory I can remember the station generating an audience is when Alan Harris had a morning show, and look what happened to him.
It all comes down to dollars and cents. Conservative talk shows seem to draw an audience, which in turn draws advertisers; at least in this market, and I'm pretty sure Buffalo as well. Even during visits to my family in Corning I've never heard a station carry any progressive talk.
Someone mentioned the idea of buying WROC and keeping the progressive talk format.
IMHO it would be a waste of investor's money. It's like buying a Hummer of Escalante' and expecting to get 40 miles to the gallon of gasoline.
The only format I think that would make money on WROC is religion. I mean the station has tried almost every other format and nothing seems to work. The only time in recent memory I can remember the station generating an audience is when Alan Harris had a morning show, and look what happened to him.
It might be interesting if somebody took a shot at LOCAL talk - whatever the political viewpoint. You know, a local host, and local newsmakers discussing local issues? After all, look what happened "when Alan Harris had a morning show".
But, that's probably way too expensive, even if Voice of Reason and others volunteered to work for a minimal salary and a share of any profits.
Realistically, "progressive" talk isn't doing business anywhere, not just in Rochester. The news/talk board has endless discussions as to "why", so I'm not going to speculate on that here.
WROC needs to make enough money to survive, or surrender the license. Since the second option is unlikely, they'll do whatever they can to make sure that the first option comes true.
But, that's probably way too expensive, even if Voice of Reason and others volunteered to work for a minimal salary and a share of any profits.
Realistically, "progressive" talk isn't doing business anywhere, not just in Rochester. The news/talk board has endless discussions as to "why", so I'm not going to speculate on that here.
WROC needs to make enough money to survive, or surrender the license. Since the second option is unlikely, they'll do whatever they can to make sure that the first option comes true.
I fear I might be spreading a stereotype here. But I think conservative talk radio does well in the ratings because part of its audience consists of high school educated, blue collar workers who hold deep, conservative beliefs and blindly follow anyone who espouses them. Even college educated and well-informed conservatives seem more willing to buy into the rhetoric Rush and his like dole out each day. Thus, great ratings. On the other hand, I would argue that most progressives are college educated, perhaps children of the 60s, who find liberal talk stations adding to the noise and incivility of our society. I view myself as left-leaning on the political scale. I can no longer tolerate Bauerle, Beach and Limbaugh. But I find Randi Rhodes and Stephanie Miller just as hard to listen to, even though I agree with their views. Maybe that's why progressive talk hasn't been able to gain a foothold. The needs of progressives are being met by well-reasoned discussions featured on such public radio shows as Diane Rehm, On Point, Talk of the Nation and Fresh Air. I'd rather spend an hour listening to Diane Rehm's Friday News Roundup on my iPod than Randi Rhodes' Friday show that begins with the anthem, "Bounce Your Boobies." Now, progressives will flock to a show that espouses their views if it's done well and intelligently. That's why, according to Aaronread, "Democracy Now" has a loyal following on his station, WEOS. Flame away if you disagree. But I think I'm on to something here!
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