Salem stations dropping Dave Ramsey.

[74WIXYGrad]

As reported in Ohio Media Watch, Salem is dropping the syndicated Dave Ramsey show, asking Ramsey to pay. Ramsey's group saying that their show is "bartered" and they will not pay. This is not right. I feel that Salem has jerked their audience around too much. They should either minister to their audience, or sell to a company, or ministry who will. Any Salem station not called "the Fish" is treated as a red headed stepchild.

http://ohiomedia.blogspot.com/2006/07/late-day-wrapup.html

 

[BehindTheLines]

Anyone else as sick as I am of the griping and moaning that goes on here on the board?

 

[radioelizabeth]

They should either minister to their audience, or sell to a company, or ministry who will.

They should minister to their audience or sell to someone who will? That presumes you know their goals and what their audience wants. It also presumes that ministry ought to be the goal, that ministry is not happening, and that a different company/ministry would be better.

Which is an opinion.

But not necessarily an objective one. Again...it presumes a lot, without much fact.

Any Salem station not called "the Fish" is treated as a red headed stepchild.

Seriously?

I'd like to hear something more than rhetoric on that one, because truthfully, it doesn't sound very accurate at all.

Anyone else as sick as I am of the griping and moaning that goes on here on the board?

Yes!

Personally, I'd love something PRODUCTIVE to come from this thread...and not just a bash on Salem or any other station, company, or decision, especially those opinions that have no appreciation for any objective other than their own.

 

[The RadioFan]

As reported in Ohio Media Watch, Salem is dropping the syndicated Dave Ramsey show, asking Ramsey to pay. Ramsey's group saying that their show is "bartered" and they will not pay. This is not right. I feel that Salem has jerked their audience around too much. They should either minister to their audience, or sell to a company, or ministry who will. Any Salem station not called "the Fish" is treated as a red headed stepchild.

http://ohiomedia.blogspot.com/2006/07/late-day-wrapup.html

There were several Salem Newstalk stations were challenged with a programming conflict by carrying the Dave Ramsey show along with the Salem owned programs "The Dennis Prager Show" and "The Mike Medved Show." Dave Ramsey's show, a non-Salem product, is live from 2-5pm. Salem's "The Dennis Prager Show" is live from Noon-3pm eastern time and Salem's "The Mike Medved Show" is live from 3pm-6pm eastern time. Many Salem newstalk stations, like WGTK-AM Louisville and WGKA-AM Atlanta, had to pre-empt an hour of each program to fit all three shows into their lineup. They had to air Dennis Prager's show from Noon-2pm, followed by Dave Ramsey from 2-4pm and Mike Medved was joined in progress from 4pm-6pm. It sounded misleading and at times frustrated when Dennis Prager would tease the upcoming 2pm hour of his show and many Salem stations had to switch to Dave Ramsey at the 2pm hour. I am sure that the absence of Dave Ramsey will alleviate any confusion among Salem's newstalk audiences and will provide a smoother lineup among Salem newstalk affiliates. Plus, the Ramsey absense may provide a greater opportunity to keep loyal listener away from the competition of Rush Limaugh's live show from noon-3pm and Sean Hannity's show from 3pm-6pm.

 

[74WIXYGrad]

The following is from a post of mine from another board

"I took alot of time to think out my reply to this post, and here goes. Salem has been a thorn in alot of peoples sides since day one. They dumped the all sports format of WHK/1420 and went with preach/teach for part of the day and classic radio programs in the evevning hours at the start. During this time they bought WTOF/98.1 and WHLO from Mortensen Broadcasting. That sale closed in 1997. They then simulcasted with WHK-am and became WHK-fm. This upset WTOF's former audience, who enjoyed the southern gospel music, and southern based ministries formerly featured on the station. People called the station to voice their displeasure and were told that if they wanted southern gospel music to start their own radio station.

In all fairness, let me add that that audience was dwindling due to the fact that the target group was retiring and moving back to the southern states.

Now in order to appease the old listeners, Salem then put the "Solid Gospel" format on WHLO, along with the southern based preach/teach programs.

Fast forward to 2001 and the "great frequency sawp". WHK-fm moved to 95.5, changed their calls to WFHM and became the Fish.

During the aftermath of the swap, WHLO was sold to Clear Channel, and so ended the Solid Gospel format in the Cleveland/Akron area.

My opinion of the sale:WHLO had the better signal at night than 850, and could attract more money from CC.

My opinion of Salem Broadcasting: If you were born before 1945, you don't matter"

Elizabeth, you worked for both WCRF and WFHM when you were in Cleveland. Can you tell me that Salem ministers to a broader base than Moody?

Next question: Is the Fish meant to be a ministry or a business? I'm just curious. Being 50 years old, I don't figure that I'm in their target demo.

And is WHKW ever going to stick with one afternoon drive program? It seems to me that you have been part of that parade.

 

[radioelizabeth]

"Salem has been a thorn in alot of peoples sides since day one.

My opinion of Salem Broadcasting: If you were born before 1945, you don't matter"

Elizabeth, you worked for both WCRF and WFHM when you were in Cleveland. Can you tell me that Salem ministers to a broader base than Moody?

Next question: Is the Fish meant to be a ministry or a business? I'm just curious. Being 50 years old, I don't figure that I'm in their target demo.

And is WHKW ever going to stick with one afternoon drive program? It seems to me that you have been part of that parade.

What one might call a thorn, another would not. Sounds like you may be unhappy with the company, but many are not.

Regarding WCRF and WFHM, these are two different types of radio stations. Two completely different targets and two completely different formats. To compare their programming side by side is not effective.

Regarding Salem's base and Moody's base...again, you are talking about two completely different companies. One is a public commercial company, the other a listener supported donor based company. Two completely different company visions and philosophies. If you are truly interested in measuring the "ministry" either is able to accomplish, you'll need to first set up some parameters to define what you deem ministry, and then attempt to research to that end. Good luck. I'm not guessing you'll be able to come up with anything definitive that works across the board. It's pretty much all going to be your personal opinion.

Now, you could look at cume and tsl and heritage and come up with some results in the station's listenership, and determine some results. But again, we'd only be talking numbers in this case.

Point being, you can't effectively measure ministry impact.

Correct, you are not the target demo of WFHM.

Regarding WHKW, I have never, nor would I ever, consider myself being "part of a parade". And I take it as an minor insult that you would...but I'm sure your intention was not to insult me. It's just that in a rather backhanded way, you did.

I have no idea what the strategy is for any of the stations you mention in this post, as I am not employed by either of them.

But I will tell you...

I have nothing negative to say about any of these former employers, or the way they have been able to minister to many. Measured or not.

Elizabeth

 

[CONSultant]

From an Atlanta radio reporter...here's how Dave Ramsey's PR people spun the change:

"The syndicated consumer advocate last week moved from 920/WGKA-AM in the afternoons to nights at WGST-AM, where the signal is weak and he gets preempted much of the baseball season.

'“It was our decision to move to a larger more mainstream audience,” said his publicist Beth Tallent. She said the perception is that WGKA, because it’s owned by Salem Communications, is a “Christian” station. But it’s actually a conservative-leaning talk station with Bill Bennett, Michael Medved, Mike Gallagher and Laura Ingraham.

“Dave’s a Christian,” she said. “He’s not ashamed of that. But we’re a mainstream show.” '

 

[jetfli]

Elizabeth, you have the benefit of having worked with and still work closely with such stations, so your posts enlighten us from the experiences you've had and from what you continue to observe around you. But you are a bit harsh to call for less bashing on this board and then so relentlessly bash a basher. A gentler reply would have been to direct the basher to contact any of the stations and/or chains mentioned for insight into their metrics for ministry performance. There is a constant struggle between business and ministry for any company that strives to advance the Gospel but also must pay employees, and as a result these companies have metrics for both financial and ministry performance. Rather than asking a basher to consider what they deem to be ministry and using that to measure the companies, allow the companies to present the yardstick they use for themselves and let would-be bashers evaluate the station's goals and how well they meet those goals.

By the way, I'm close to 50 myself and enjoy the Fish. It seems to me that the WAY group says it targets teenagers and Salem's Fish division aims a bit more toward young adults, yet I'm looking around and seeing these age groups more into Christian alternative bands than what is actually getting programmed on to these stations. Their playlists come across to me as hitting both under and above the age groups they say they're targeting.

 

[smashedcd]

dave is on xm. several times a day at that! if you want to hear it. get it. if not then listen live via the web for free. salem does not have to carry it. and my question is. why did they? locally here he is on clear channel. and yes his get out of debt plan works ;D i am doing it myself!

 

[74WIXYGrad]

Elizabeth,

Maybe I shouldn't have said parade, but you did host an asfternoon show on WHK at one time, didn't you?

I will address my other points later.

 

[radioelizabeth]

Elizabeth, you have the benefit of having worked with and still work closely with such stations, so your posts enlighten us from the experiences you've had and from what you continue to observe around you. But you are a bit harsh to call for less bashing on this board and then so relentlessly bash a basher. A gentler reply would have been to direct the basher to contact any of the stations and/or chains mentioned for insight into their metrics for ministry performance. There is a constant struggle between business and ministry for any company that strives to advance the Gospel but also must pay employees, and as a result these companies have metrics for both financial and ministry performance. Rather than asking a basher to consider what they deem to be ministry and using that to measure the companies, allow the companies to present the yardstick they use for themselves and let would-be bashers evaluate the station's goals and how well they meet those goals.

I don't recall bashing a basher at all, let alone, relentlessly.

There is no absolute way to measure ministry. There are ways in which companies measure their own impact in regards to their own vision and goals...but to compare ministry impact between any two companies, churches, or people...is simply not possible, especially when talking about two completely different formats. It will all be opinion, based on the parameters the individual comparing has fixed.

Regarding a more "gentle" approach. Let's consider this is text based communication. What one may consider gentle, another may consider soft. What one might consider harsh, another may see as direct. Your example of approach may have been different, and covered a different aspect of the post, but that does not make mine any harsher.

By the way, I'm close to 50 myself and enjoy the Fish. It seems to me that the WAY group says it targets teenagers and Salem's Fish division aims a bit more toward young adults, yet I'm looking around and seeing these age groups more into Christian alternative bands than what is actually getting programmed on to these stations. Their playlists come across to me as hitting both under and above the age groups they say they're targeting.

Anytime a station targets a demo, you reach outside the demo by default.

 

[BehindTheLines]

hey, E...

Your critics are calling you a 'basher' for using logic and facts!

Ha!

Go, girl.

 

[radioelizabeth]

Re: Targets

By the way, I'm close to 50 myself and enjoy the Fish. It seems to me that the WAY group says it targets teenagers and Salem's Fish division aims a bit more toward young adults, yet I'm looking around and seeing these age groups more into Christian alternative bands than what is actually getting programmed on to these stations. Their playlists come across to me as hitting both under and above the age groups they say they're targeting.

Anytime a station targets a demo, you reach outside the demo by default.

Also...regarding targets of WAY FM and Fish Stations... they are each different targets, yes. But I would say they are not targeting as young an audience as you mention.

You'll find some HOT AC/CHR stations target the young adult (let's put the target at "27"), while AC aims at an older woman (here we might make it "37"). Again, I'm simply adding an age for example....every station determines it's own profile. Teenagers themselves are rarely targets for radio, sometimes, but not in most cases. That being said, teens can be and are reached through the medium...but usually by default or through other means of reaching out to them outside general format tactics (strategically positioned programs are an example of this). Again, we're talking about those stations that may gain teens by default, but do not target them specifically.

What is interesting to me, is that your perception of each of these targets is not exactly accurate. (I'll say that confidently, without discussing specific station profiles). In a general sense, regarding any station, that tells me that the station images are either not being communicated clearly, or simply that a misunderstood perspective has circulated to the extent it is widely accepted, but not necessarily challenged or factual.


and of course...this post is way off topic...since the thread is on talk radio anyway.

 

[ToddStach]

Any Salem station not called "the Fish" is treated as a red headed stepchild.

http://ohiomedia.blogspot.com/2006/07/late-day-wrapup.html

From my viewpoint...the Salem shareholders and those in charge need stations to meet goals and perform. Most Salem music stations are being financially out performed by their Christian talk or News talk stations. This makes many of The Fish stations the "red headed stepchild" in certain clusters.

 

[74WIXYGrad]

I see I smoked out another former Cleveland Fish personality.

I can't say what other clusters do, but I know that Salem Cleveland promote the Fish quite a bit. I'm sure that you saw more than your share of RTA busses with Fish advertising when you worked on Summit Park Drive. Salem in Cleveland has let southern gospel go by the wayside when they sold WHLO to Clear Channel. During the great frequency swap in 2001, they left the Canton market. After WHLO was sold you could not get preaching/teaching after sunset(due to WHKW's directional signal at night) in Stark, Wayne and Tuscawarus Counties.

WTOF/98.1's former audience were the ultimate losers in all the wheeling and dealing. People I know called the station after the sale, when it became a simulcast of WHK/1420, to voice their objection of losing Southern Gospel music, and Southern based preaching. They were told that if they wanted Southern Gospel music to start their own station. They later put the Solid Gospel format on WHLO for awhile, before the sale to CC. It was also the best kept secret in the area. You never saw WHLO advertising on TV or busses.

Back to Dave Ramsey. He is very popular in Cleveland. His live event sold out in Akron. His program is Christian based. Surely WHKW could find a way to keep him on the air here. If you pros can find a way to help me to help save the show here, I would be grateful.

Note to Radioelizabeth: It was never my intention to offend you, and if I did, I'm sorry.

 

[radioelizabeth]

WTOF/98.1's former audience were the ultimate losers in all the wheeling and dealing. People I know called the station after the sale, when it became a simulcast of WHK/1420, to voice their objection of losing Southern Gospel music, and Southern based preaching. They were told that if they wanted Southern Gospel music to start their own station. They later put the Solid Gospel format on WHLO for awhile, before the sale to CC. It was also the best kept secret in the area. You never saw WHLO advertising on TV or busses.

Back to Dave Ramsey. He is very popular in Cleveland. His live event sold out in Akron. His program is Christian based. Surely WHKW could find a way to keep him on the air here. If you pros can find a way to help me to help save the show here, I would be grateful.

Note to Radioelizabeth: It was never my intention to offend you, and if I did, I'm sorry.

Thanks. I know it wasn't the intention...appreciate that.

Southern Gospel formats were switched out coast to coast by many station owners. Supply and demand has changed since this format first began... you see the same thing happening with "inspo" stations. And again, the switch away from that music is not exclusive to any one company.

Ramsey's program is not "Christian" based. Ramsey is a Christian. His principals are derived in part from his faith, his experience, and some very very solid tools. But the program is not "Christian" or "Christian" based, nor is it marketed or targeted as such.

e

 

[74WIXYGrad]

"Ramsey's program is not "Christian" based. Ramsey is a Christian. His principals are derived in part from his faith, his experience, and some very very solid tools. But the program is not "Christian" or "Christian" based, nor is it marketed or targeted as such."

Point taken, but from my side of the mic, I just look at where I first heard it and get the general perception, as would most listeners on that particular station, that it is a "Christian" show. (Keep in mind the closest I got to being in the business is broadcasting school 32 years ago) What was then WHK had for their first pm drive time program "The Eric Hogue Show". The listeners tried to turn it into a Christian talk show, but Eric claimed that rather he was a Christian with a talk show.

I am a big boy, and I am sure that I will probably have to turn to podcasting to get what I would like to hear, maybe do a few myself. Just go to the tuner when I have to hear a traffic report. Have a good evening.

Cliff

P.S. Who's bashing?

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

"Who's bashing?" Certainly not me, and I feel kinda responsible for this since OMW's report prompted this thread. I also know Cliff at least a little, and I don't at ALL think he intended on bashing any specific person.

I certainly have had issues with some of the things Salem has done in this market and others. As a broadcaster and someone who follows/covers the industry, I think the dumping of Ramsey on WHKW is a bad idea.

But at its heart, 1220 is a "pay to play" station. That's why it exists, and that's why it makes so much money. The goal of the station is to sell as many time blocks as possible, and a free, bartered show gets in the way of this...even though it's popular and even though it probably makes some money for 'em on the side.

Given these facts, it's not hard to see why the move was made at the Salem corporate level. And they were asking Ramsey's people to pay for even the clearances on the non-teaching stations. The "confusion" re: Dennis Prager et al. doesn't happen here, because Prager's on 1420 and Ramsey is on 1220. Though it carries less paid programming, 1420's goal is also to sell as much time as it can, outside of the company's own syndicated programming.

As far as the Fish goes, it has been somewhat more successful in Cleveland than many other Fish outlets. I have no idea how well Salem monetizes that success, but WFHM is pretty much a mainstream station in this area.

Anyway, I hope Elizabeth still doesn't feel bad about this in any way. I've heard her stuff, and she's quite talented.

-OMW

 

[smashedcd]

But at its heart, 1220 is a "pay to play" station. That's why it exists, and
that's why it makes so much money. The goal of the station is to sell as many
time blocks as possible, and a free, bartered show gets in the way of
this...even though it's popular and even though it probably makes some money for
'em on the side.



pay to play...down here we call that dollar a hollar ;D..and dave aint no dollar a holler guy. speaking of..one of my credit cards asked me a bout a loan today to get a lower rate. well actually i didnt qualify. i told them it was ok i was doing the dave ramsey plane anyway.to which she replied..so are we!! she said she never missed his radio show.. hopefully another station picks him up in these markets. someone like clear channel.

 

[74WIXYGrad]

OMW,

Thanks for the support. I will have to come back here more often, especially when I have material to share from the Mighty Blog of Fun(tm)