Satillite Radio

[MickeyD]

I have been an engineer for over thirty-five years. You have no idea what you are talking about.

I've hired more engineers than you can imagine.

Like I said, I had engineers trying to tell me not to flip to stereo because the coverage would be reduced.

And we can see why engineers don't run radio stations.

There are good engineers and bad engineers and the same goes for management . I'm a network TV engineer. To quote from Howard Stern, "What I do here (radio) is a couple of notes aboue Ham radio"

What I said about HD radio is accurate.You should stop hiring guys from Adio Shack and hire real engineers. You get what you pay for.

 

[Don Juan]

I have been an engineer for over thirty-five years. You have no idea what you are talking about.

I've hired more engineers than you can imagine.

Like I said, I had engineers trying to tell me not to flip to stereo because the coverage would be reduced.

And we can see why engineers don't run radio stations.

There are good engineers and bad engineers and the same goes for management . I'm a network TV engineer. To quote from Howard Stern, "What I do here (radio) is a couple of notes aboue Ham radio"

What I said about HD radio is accurate.You should stop hiring guys from Adio Shack and hire real engineers. You get what you pay for.

When all else fails, attack the other guy. Two posts with no substance, just attacking?

So, Mark Manuelian is not a real engineer?

You know more than the Chief engineer of CBS radio? You know more than they engineers at NPR labs? You know more than the engineers at the FCC?

A TV Engineer in going to lecture them all "one step above ham radio"?

 

[MickeyD]

I have been an engineer for over thirty-five years. You have no idea what you are talking about.

I've hired more engineers than you can imagine.

Like I said, I had engineers trying to tell me not to flip to stereo because the coverage would be reduced.

And we can see why engineers don't run radio stations.

There are good engineers and bad engineers and the same goes for management . I'm a network TV engineer. To quote from Howard Stern, "What I do here (radio) is a couple of notes aboue Ham radio"

What I said about HD radio is accurate.You should stop hiring guys from Adio Shack and hire real engineers. You get what you pay for.

When all else fails, attack the other guy. Two posts with no substance, just attacking?

So, Mark Manuelian is not a real engineer?

You know more than the Chief engineer of CBS radio? You know more than they engineers at NPR labs? You know more than the engineers at the FCC?

A TV Engineer in going to lecture them all "one step above ham radio"?

Whatever you say. If the boss says to we are taking this position you are going to regardless of your own personal opinion. Have been down that road with 8-VSB vs. COFDM.

TV is radio with pictures you are funny are you saying radio is technologically more difficult than TV? Spare me.
Have you ever even been inside a major market a TV station or a TV network? You would be lost in a TV station. I have always wondered why there are never any "pirate TV" stations?

Howard Stern said that about radio not me although it was good. You have to read the entire post not just skim it.

Was Mark the engineer that told you not to turn on the stereo generator? Still not clear on that one, did you not know that running a station mono will increase your range and reduce fading or did you just think that the comment was absurd?

Yes, I am disagreeing with them. First of all, NPR labs is the group that said a power increase would interfere with analog radio! So we are in agreement. Ibiquity has a vested interest in making this work and so do the radio groups that invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in it. Perhaps you and your experts can explain why there are virtually no AM stations using IBOC anymore and FMs are dropping it like flies.

I don't know why you would listen to an Engineer anyway you have zero respect for them. Who are you to look down on an Engineer? Not the nickel and dimers you hire I mean the real ones. I suppose that the comment, "And we can see why engineers don't run radio stations" was a compliment? A station can operate without anyone BUT an engineer. I can't imagine YOU designing, building,or repairing anything.

I wasn't attacking anyone because if I was you would know it. I just forgot that this site is a combination hobbyist and professional radio group.

 

[Don Juan]

I have been an engineer for over thirty-five years. You have no idea what you are talking about.

I've hired more engineers than you can imagine.

Like I said, I had engineers trying to tell me not to flip to stereo because the coverage would be reduced.

And we can see why engineers don't run radio stations.

There are good engineers and bad engineers and the same goes for management . I'm a network TV engineer. To quote from Howard Stern, "What I do here (radio) is a couple of notes aboue Ham radio"

What I said about HD radio is accurate.You should stop hiring guys from Adio Shack and hire real engineers. You get what you pay for.

When all else fails, attack the other guy. Two posts with no substance, just attacking?

So, Mark Manuelian is not a real engineer?

You know more than the Chief engineer of CBS radio? You know more than they engineers at NPR labs? You know more than the engineers at the FCC?

Did they not get the memo from you explaining all the things that are so clear to you?

Yes, I am disagreeing with them.

I don't know why you would listen to an Engineer anyway you have zero respect for them. Who are you to look down on an Engineer?

I don't look down on engineers at all. I have great respect for the good ones. The best ones learn how to adapt. The best ones understand the business. The worst ones are those that can't seem to move into the future.

NPR labs is not agreeing with you. (You stated that "it doesn't work".) NPR is not talking down HD....they are encouraging a power increase....and iBiquity agrees with them.

Stereo may degade a coverage area...but the engineers that hung onto that one idea were left behind as the business moved ahead.

You can disagree with some of the best engineers in the country. But you would have more behind your opinion when you have achieved that status of some of the chief engineers of some of the largest groups in the country.

Right now you are a TV engineer in NJ with another opinion. And, yes, I have been into many major market TV operations.

 

[MickeyD]

I have been an engineer for over thirty-five years. You have no idea what you are talking about.

I've hired more engineers than you can imagine.

Like I said, I had engineers trying to tell me not to flip to stereo because the coverage would be reduced.

And we can see why engineers don't run radio stations.

There are good engineers and bad engineers and the same goes for management . I'm a network TV engineer. To quote from Howard Stern, "What I do here (radio) is a couple of notes aboue Ham radio"

What I said about HD radio is accurate.You should stop hiring guys from Adio Shack and hire real engineers. You get what you pay for.

When all else fails, attack the other guy. Two posts with no substance, just attacking?

So, Mark Manuelian is not a real engineer?

You know more than the Chief engineer of CBS radio? You know more than they engineers at NPR labs? You know more than the engineers at the FCC?

Did they not get the memo from you explaining all the things that are so clear to you?

Yes, I am disagreeing with them.

I don't know why you would listen to an Engineer anyway you have zero respect for them. Who are you to look down on an Engineer?

I don't look down on engineers at all. I have great respect for the good ones. The best ones learn how to adapt. The best ones understand the business. The worst ones are those that can't seem to move into the future.

NPR labs is not agreeing with you. (You stated that "it doesn't work".) NPR is not talking down HD....they are encouraging a power increase....and iBiquity agrees with them.

Stereo may degade a coverage area...but the engineers that hung onto that one idea were left behind as the business moved ahead.

You can disagree with some of the best engineers in the country. But you would have more behind your opinion when you have achieved that status of some of the chief engineers of some of the largest groups in the country.

Right now you are a TV engineer in NJ with another opinion. And, yes, I have been into many major market TV operations.








[/quoteJ.
I haven't been a TV engineer in over 20 years. I have been around too many people with your outlook on engineers. I designed and built the first digital satellite newsgathering system in the US 12 years ago and know first hand what happens when digital merges with analog. I did it before and for longer than any engineer you may know.

What I am seeing today is what I saw 15 years ago when DTV was being developed and that is pushing an inferior technology on the public. The technolgy we have today (8-vsb) that is only used by the US, Canada, South Korea and one or two other countries. The rest of the world is using COFDM because it works and can be used for mobile applications.

If DTV wasn't provided over satellite or cable the reception problems would be phenomenal but that isn't anything that wasn't known when it was developed and tested a decade ago; long before the cutover date in June.

It is the same story with "HD Radio" we spent millions investing in our stations so we have to make it look like it works. I don't have to kiss anyone's butt so I can say what I want. The question for your experts still stands why are stations pullin gte plug on this wonderful technlogy AND why isn't the public buying the receivers?

Here is my background, I hold a CPBE certificate issued by the SBE (ask your experts what that is), FCC licensed to the max, a 6 year old Master's degree in IT and Technology (my thesis was done on HDTV before there was an HDTV), and more experience than I care to remember in TV. I don't know if you know what a Principal Engineer even is but that is who I am! I am a ham and radio is just a hobby I can put my mind on hold with radio. I held a "First phone" since I was 19.

I will debate any of your experts anytime. I have been there and you can only put one carrier in one space at any one time. Digital will interfere with the analog signal AND vice-versa. Anyone that would tell you different would be telling what the boss wants you to think. The FM band is over-crowded and there is only room for one or the other. Why do they have to increase the power? A huge miscalculation would be my guess. When they did they testing it was on the band without HD on the FM band also but that was no fault of their own. The more crap you put on the band the more nyou raise the noise floor. An example is 87.7 and 87.9. They both operate with relatively low power but you can hear them everywhere.

What exactly do you do anyway?

 

[MickeyD]

Wher ehave you been hiding this space?

 

[Eli Polonsky]

Perhaps you and your experts can explain why there are virtually no AM stations using IBOC anymore and FMs are dropping it like flies.

I don't know about other markets, but none of the approximately twenty FM stations that have used IBOC in the greater Boston area have dropped it yet. They're all still going with it.

Only one of the five AM stations that have used IBOC in greater Boston has dropped it, but that was for financial, not technical reasons. The parent company decided to cut all expenses that were not absolutely necessary to keep that station on the air on a shoestring. The other four are still using it.

 

[bigtom101]

For a satellite radio thread, this certainly has gotten knee deep in HD Radio. As far as the technology goes, the receivers have gotten better by leaps and bounds since the 1st home units three years ago - I still have the $600 receipt from Tweeter for the BA Receptor HD. That receiver was deaf as a post and had the build quality of a Ford Pinto, but that's the price you pay to be an early adopter. A year later, I got my second HD radio was the Visteon Jump & the car kit for ~$200 - the one I still use in my vehicles today. The build quality got better, and the reception improved - still not amazing (for HD anyways - on analog the thing kicks ass), but leaps and bounds over the BA Receptor. HD Radio #3 in 2008 for $99 at RadioShack - the Accurian...notice a pattern in the price? Reception again improved (I live just outside the main contour for most of the HD radio stations in my area, but since I live on a hill, I get decent reception), and I had a decent replacement for the Accurian (at 1/6th the price). Next up, the Sony HD component tuner - a great tuner, either analog or digital. Some of the stubborn HD signals that I couldn't get finally would come in (with the supplied dipole), and some analog signals were able to be yanked out of the RF mud that is Central NJ.

Finally, the Insignia portable - at $50. I got mine no problem at a local Best Buy, and didn't even have it 5 minutes before the packaging was in pieces and I was putting it thru its paces in the parking lot - getting most of the NYC HD's and two local signals. The battery life is great, and the only downside is the fragile lock in some areas due to the lack of great antenna, and the low power of the HD signal. But this little radio performed great when I went to Philly - had no problems keeping a lock even with the crappy earbud headphones indoors.

Whats my point? Much like with every other electronic device, over time the price has come down, performance has improved, and the experience has been allot nicer since my first HD Radio in March of 2006. As far as the power increase, NPR is echoing what allot engineers are saying - allow a floating increase depending on each individual stations situation. If a station wants to run up to -10, ok, but if their transmitters can only do -13 or -16, that's ok as well. I personally have not seen any of the adverse effects from -10 IBOC power - on two separate stations - but that's just my experience.

As far as AM, there are legitimate questions about the system and interference issues. But the system isn't without merit - it's amazing to hear WBZ without the hiss, crackle, and pop of AM radio. And this is from hundreds of miles away in Central Jersey at night with the usual fading issues.

HD Radio can work - in many cases it is now. Just like with every other communication technology, it will continue to improve. The best way to make sure that someone has a positive experience with it? Crank up the power - if not to -10, then to -14 like NPR Labs suggest.

 

[MickeyD]

For a satellite radio thread, this certainly has gotten knee deep in HD Radio. As far as the technology goes, the receivers have gotten better by leaps and bounds since the 1st home units three years ago - I still have the $600 receipt from Tweeter for the BA Receptor HD. That receiver was deaf as a post and had the build quality of a Ford Pinto, but that's the price you pay to be an early adopter. A year later, I got my second HD radio was the Visteon Jump & the car kit for ~$200 - the one I still use in my vehicles today. The build quality got better, and the reception improved - still not amazing (for HD anyways - on analog the thing kicks ass), but leaps and bounds over the BA Receptor. HD Radio #3 in 2008 for $99 at RadioShack - the Accurian...notice a pattern in the price? Reception again improved (I live just outside the main contour for most of the HD radio stations in my area, but since I live on a hill, I get decent reception), and I had a decent replacement for the Accurian (at 1/6th the price). Next up, the Sony HD component tuner - a great tuner, either analog or digital. Some of the stubborn HD signals that I couldn't get finally would come in (with the supplied dipole), and some analog signals were able to be yanked out of the RF mud that is Central NJ.

Finally, the Insignia portable - at $50. I got mine no problem at a local Best Buy, and didn't even have it 5 minutes before the packaging was in pieces and I was putting it thru its paces in the parking lot - getting most of the NYC HD's and two local signals. The battery life is great, and the only downside is the fragile lock in some areas due to the lack of great antenna, and the low power of the HD signal. But this little radio performed great when I went to Philly - had no problems keeping a lock even with the crappy earbud headphones indoors.

Whats my point? Much like with every other electronic device, over time the price has come down, performance has improved, and the experience has been allot nicer since my first HD Radio in March of 2006. As far as the power increase, NPR is echoing what allot engineers are saying - allow a floating increase depending on each individual stations situation. If a station wants to run up to -10, ok, but if their transmitters can only do -13 or -16, that's ok as well. I personally have not seen any of the adverse effects from -10 IBOC power - on two separate stations - but that's just my experience.

As far as AM, there are legitimate questions about the system and interference issues. But the system isn't without merit - it's amazing to hear WBZ without the hiss, crackle, and pop of AM radio. And this is from hundreds of miles away in Central Jersey at night with the usual fading issues.

HD Radio can work - in many cases it is now. Just like with every other communication technology, it will continue to improve. The best way to make sure that someone has a positive experience with it? Crank up the power - if not to -10, then to -14 like NPR Labs suggest.

Never be an early adopter. Whatever it is, it's always twice as much and half as good as the next generation.

I prefer portables myself, I own three analog Walkmans, and the Insignia. I had no trouble getting mine. Most people thought it was a regular Walkman. I asked the guy in the store how it worked and he told me "they used satellite". Great marketing.

The battery is a little heftier because the internal chipset is power hungry and is naturally heavier than a regular Walkman. The lithium battery still hasn't been recharged yet I want to see how long it will operate until it dies.

I have receive most of the stations for NY, NJ but I should I live on the shore. Philly (depending on the weather) not too much trouble. WBZ I receive better on the analog side, that is, unless I want to dance around with the earphones. WBZ skips across the water from Hull to the Jersey shore so it sounds like a local station where I am.

It's the cranking up the power where the problems will lie. In a test bed situation you are testing under a controlled setting and when the testing is moved to a phase two, over-the-air scenario, it is still somewhat controlled because it is the only carrier on the band.

I don't know if I would say ALL of the Engineers are on board with it. Two groups with a vested interest are very interested in making it work. Join and listen into one of the tech threads on a broadcast engineer list (or known to some as where the "Players"
hang out LOL) and you will hear a completely different story from the guys that operate stations that use them.

From a business standpoint, do you interfere with an established service (analog) to improve a developing service (IBOC)? Considering that the exisiting service is in serious financial trouble and the developing service is unknown to most people and is not making the station any money? A power increase will cause interference between analog and digital stations. A digital signal interfering with an analog signal will make a local station sound like a hissy distant station. An analog signal interfering with a digital signal, well there is nothing there and unless you are carrying a spectrum analyzer with you good luck finding the source.

Assuming that we just kept the IBOC stations we have on the air now, and increased the power on all of them at the same level the noise floor would increase. This is your real test because it will increase your signal to noise measurement, which will seem like a power reduction.

In addition, the power increase will be getting into distant adjacent analog stations and vice-versa depending on atmospheric conditions. One thing about radio and TV and that is people expect to always be there.

With a digital signal you get much more bang for your buck than with and analog signal. Look at the power levels of analog TV vs. Digital TV which is approximately plus/minus one-tenth of the power for analog.

Anytime you send a signal over the air it is affected by the atmosphere and the FM band is affected by ducting. I haven't seen any mention of this in any of these studies and it is a real factor to be considered. Floating is actually a great term because atmospheric conditions are constantly in a state of flux. I would like to see either iBiquities or NPR predicted reliability numbers but the don't exist.

As far as AM is concerned, I never really thought it would work on AM because of the night time skywave propagation characteristics and the interference that is caused on adjacent channels. Some stations leave it on at night despite interference complaints that require FCC intervention. Pushing listerners away becuase they can't hear alocal station is never a good idea.

The bottom line is to make it work. All of it, the legacy system and the new system because if it doesn't it will severely damage the already hurting radio industry. Not like the HDTV system, kluge it up and tell everyone it works.

A broadcast system should have a 99.9999% reliability factor not an unknown.

 

[Don Juan]

For a satellite radio thread, this certainly has gotten knee deep in HD Radio. As far as the technology goes, the receivers have gotten better by leaps and bounds since the 1st home units three years ago - I still have the $600 receipt from Tweeter for the BA Receptor HD. That receiver was deaf as a post and had the build quality of a Ford Pinto, but that's the price you pay to be an early adopter. A year later, I got my second HD radio was the Visteon Jump & the car kit for ~$200 - the one I still use in my vehicles today. The build quality got better, and the reception improved - still not amazing (for HD anyways - on analog the thing kicks ass), but leaps and bounds over the BA Receptor. HD Radio #3 in 2008 for $99 at RadioShack - the Accurian...notice a pattern in the price? Reception again improved (I live just outside the main contour for most of the HD radio stations in my area, but since I live on a hill, I get decent reception), and I had a decent replacement for the Accurian (at 1/6th the price). Next up, the Sony HD component tuner - a great tuner, either analog or digital. Some of the stubborn HD signals that I couldn't get finally would come in (with the supplied dipole), and some analog signals were able to be yanked out of the RF mud that is Central NJ.

Finally, the Insignia portable - at $50. I got mine no problem at a local Best Buy, and didn't even have it 5 minutes before the packaging was in pieces and I was putting it thru its paces in the parking lot - getting most of the NYC HD's and two local signals. The battery life is great, and the only downside is the fragile lock in some areas due to the lack of great antenna, and the low power of the HD signal. But this little radio performed great when I went to Philly - had no problems keeping a lock even with the crappy earbud headphones indoors.

Whats my point? Much like with every other electronic device, over time the price has come down, performance has improved, and the experience has been allot nicer since my first HD Radio in March of 2006. As far as the power increase, NPR is echoing what allot engineers are saying - allow a floating increase depending on each individual stations situation. If a station wants to run up to -10, ok, but if their transmitters can only do -13 or -16, that's ok as well. I personally have not seen any of the adverse effects from -10 IBOC power - on two separate stations - but that's just my experience.

As far as AM, there are legitimate questions about the system and interference issues. But the system isn't without merit - it's amazing to hear WBZ without the hiss, crackle, and pop of AM radio. And this is from hundreds of miles away in Central Jersey at night with the usual fading issues.

HD Radio can work - in many cases it is now. Just like with every other communication technology, it will continue to improve. The best way to make sure that someone has a positive experience with it? Crank up the power - if not to -10, then to -14 like NPR Labs suggest.

I prefer portables myself, I own three analog Walkmans, and the Insignia. I had no trouble getting mine.

Here are the facts.

HD radio is here. Radio stations have deployed it. Radios are on the market. Volvo is putting them in cars.

It's gonna be around for awhile.

You can have all the opinions you want. You can believe you know better than everyone else.

But you don't get a vote. Broadcast policy and practices are not made by hobbyist.

 

[JIBGUY]

Broadcast policy and practices are not made by hobbyist.

Quite true..... not made by hobbyists, but rather made by lobbyists.

 

[Don Juan]

Broadcast policy and practices are not made by hobbyist.

Quite true..... not made by hobbyists, but rather made by lobbyists.

;-)

But lobbyists representing the broadcasters.

 

[MickeyD]

Broadcast policy and practices are not made by hobbyist.

Quite true..... not made by hobbyists, but rather made by lobbyists.

;-)

But lobbyists representing the broadcasters.

More like lobbyists representing iBiquity the FCC's only choice for this service. It will be the broadcasters and the public that suffer in the long run but they won't be able to see that until everyone blindly cranks up their power.

 

[Don Juan]

Broadcast policy and practices are not made by hobbyist.

Quite true..... not made by hobbyists, but rather made by lobbyists.

;-)

But lobbyists representing the broadcasters.

More like lobbyists representing iBiquity the FCC's only choice for this service. It will be the broadcasters and the public that suffer in the long run but they won't be able to see that until everyone blindly cranks up their power.

Broadcasters are generally on the side of iBiquity. Broadcaster lobbied for it as well. I think broadcasters and the NAB had more influence than iBiquity.

 

[JIBGUY]

But lobbyists representing the broadcasters.

Broadcast lobbyists represent only the larger (usually Wall Strett oriented) broadcasters. Some of which are the same ones that are in bed with iniquity. Smaller broadcasters have no lobbyists. It is said that they do, but they don't.

 

[Don Juan]

But lobbyists representing the broadcasters.

Broadcast lobbyists represent only the larger (usually Wall Strett oriented) broadcasters. Some of which are the same ones that are in bed with iniquity. Smaller broadcasters have no lobbyists. It is said that they do, but they don't.

Don't smaller broadcasters belong to the NAB? There was a time when almost every station did.

If they do, they have a lobby.

Everybody needs a boogie man to blame when things dont go their way. And I guess iBiquity plays that role.

 

[bigtom101]

It's the cranking up the power where the problems will lie. In a test bed situation you are testing under a controlled setting and when the testing is moved to a phase two, over-the-air scenario, it is still somewhat controlled because it is the only carrier on the band.

I don't know if I would say ALL of the Engineers are on board with it. Two groups with a vested interest are very interested in making it work. Join and listen into one of the tech threads on a broadcast engineer list (or known to some as where the "Players"
hang out LOL) and you will hear a completely different story from the guys that operate stations that use them.

The bottom line is to make it work. All of it, the legacy system and the new system because if it doesn't it will severely damage the already hurting radio industry. Not like the HDTV system, kluge it up and tell everyone it works.

A broadcast system should have a 99.9999% reliability factor not an unknown.

It's true that not all engineers are on board - I know one engineer in a major market who does not like the system overall and would rather go back to analog only. On the flip side, the one engineer I work with (who oversees two FM HD stations that were used for elevated power testing) is using the IBOC features to the fullest (PAD linked to promos/commercials) and overall loves the system.

In a perfect world, there would be 99.999% uptime for everything. But even analog stations go off the air for various reasons (STL craps out, power failures & the generator doesnt start, etc). I was on air one afternoon and everything went dead - the generator failed to start because only two phases of the 3 phase incoming power were monitored. Dead air for an hour before it was fixed - no system is perfect. And there is no reason that iBiquity along with the equipment manufactures should not be constantly refining and improving reliability and overall performance. Every technology has growing pains - hell, I'm sure early FM equipment was cantankerous and required constant refining and upgrading.

I agree - just make the thing work. And a floating power increase will do that, especially for those of us stuck on the fringes.

 

[MickeyD]

But lobbyists representing the broadcasters.

Broadcast lobbyists represent only the larger (usually Wall Strett oriented) broadcasters. Some of which are the same ones that are in bed with iniquity. Smaller broadcasters have no lobbyists. It is said that they do, but they don't.

Don't smaller broadcasters belong to the NAB? There was a time when almost every station did.

If they do, they have a lobby.

Everybody needs a boogie man to blame when things dont go their way. And I guess iBiquity plays that role.

I don't know what they can do now anyway. Ibiquity and the stations have millions invested and I don't think walking away would be acceptable.

 

[JIBGUY]

Don't smaller broadcasters belong to the NAB? There was a time when almost every station did.
If they do, they have a lobby.

A large percentage of smaller stations do NOT belong.

 

[Deleted User]

Did anyone else see the announcement that all 2010 model year Volvo automobiles are going to come factory equipped with HD radio as standard equipment.

IMHO the only way HD is going to catch on is for manufacturers to to it voluntarily, or have the F.C.C. mandate it.

I know when I bought my last 2 trucks I could have had it installed at the dealer, but it was 200 bucks plus for the kit, and I was not dropping that kind of money for it.

I'd rather pay for XM and have more choices and a little less sound quality.

Besides my 80 year old mother drives my 2008 Escape, and all she listens to is WJIB, so HD is a waste for the 300 miles a year I drive that truck.