SEPTEMBER PPMs

[MsMusicRadio]

Wanna discuss WJAS?

 

[Parttimer]

No.

 

[MsMusicRadio]

okay. How about the Frogs?

 

[KeyTimes950]

Allow me a few thoughts.

First of all, is there any station that really stands out in this market?
WDVE gets numbers, yes, but how impressive is its programming?
For that matter, how impressive is anyone's format in this market?

Then there are those who wonder why so much attention is given to the smaller stations in the market.
I think the smaller stations get notice because they are the outlets anyone thinks they can influence, that do not answer to authorities in New York or San Antonio or California.

Also, the most daring stations aren't the ones that get dominant ratings.
It takes little to throw up a satellite to pull in programs, to barter so much of Saturday and Sunday, or to get news from outside sources (be it the TV station down the Parkway or the regional HQ in Ohio or wherever).

If there are stations worth noting, let's note them.
If there are stations that draw curiosity, don't squash the curiosity.

But what do I know?

 

[Boss Radio]

>>>WDVE gets numbers, yes, but how impressive is its programming?<<<

You could have said the same thing about KDKA in the late '70s and '80s when they were pulling 25 shares.

There are two different issues here: The success of a station (which is verifiable) and the quality of its programming (which is always debatable).

If some 500-watt blaster programmed things that were really fresh and noteworthy, it would be one thing. But so much of the teakettle discussion is along of the lines of "Are they still on the air? I was driving through Wherever yesterday and couldn't pick them up." The curiosity doesn't come from listeners, who gave up on these things a long time ago, but from people who have worked in the business and typically worked at these stations.

I give credit to the people who have been able to keep these stations afloat in a tough environment for any radio, but I'm not impressed that someone is turning a profit because they're able to keep the overhead extremely low while selling hours to dubious preachers and healers.

 

[MsMusicRadio]

Drove through Carnegie and WZUM was dark

 

[Pratte4Life]

Boss, I'm with you. I have worked for numerous stations that above everything would not touch their Sunday morning preacher shows. Once as a sports talk show host I was told not to handicap football games with a pointspread because it might upset the ministers who bought such time on the station.

But show me the guy who has praised a local AM for that sort of programming on this board.

Part- As for WDVE's success, running AAA/Alternative music every two hours doesn't do much for me and I can't imagine it would on a station that the last I looked had an average age listener of 39. Now, I understand playing newer rock acts to make sure that average age doesn't become 49. But I want the hard-rockin' stuff cut from the AC/DC mold and I know I'm not the only one. Alternative music never did much for us who grew up with the Headbangers Ball (a membership that includes just about every American male in Generation X).

Look, WDVE does well because it's got a monopoly on classic rock in this town and this is a classic rock town. The Steelers contract doesn't hurt, either. But they aren't No. 1 because they play an AAA/Alternative song every two hours, I assure you. It's more branding and traditional listening habits.

And I was one of those listeners. Heck, one of the reasons I'm so critical of the station is because I love it so much- I love what it has meant in past years to Pittsburgh listeners.

But for me, I just can't take the Neil Young, Kansas, and Steely Dan anymore to get to a halfway decent song. In the era of Guitar Hero, WDVE still seems more mellow than exciting, and the comedy seems more and more crass than funny (Randy Baumann will plug John McIntire appearances, for crying out loud).

Then again, I'm just not listening that much anymore to the station.

Someone asked "Where will the WDVE listeners go" when I implied people might look for alternatives (and I did see their cume fell to third in a recent book). Myself, I've found BOB on my presets- they play a lot of stuff I grew up with whereas WDVE plays stuff from prior to that era- and sometimes 3WS.

And I hate to write that. I feel like I should also talk about how much I enjoy Matlock and Geritol when I say that I've been listening to 3WS.

But the scary thing is that 3WS is sounding more contemporary than WDVE has lately (I can hear the promos now- "3WS . . .We play 1985- not 1975!"). But, Saturday Night Live is parodying Lawrence Welk reruns on PBS, so maybe I can hold on to 16 for a little longer.

I'm quoting John Cougar Mellencamp now? DAMN YOU- WDVE! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO ME! I actually know all the words to "Jack and Diane!" You've ruined my life!

And maybe, why another classic rocker that really rocks- or at the very least isn't still playing Uriah Heep- is needed and could be successful.

Where have you gone- K-Rock, The Force, and 97 Rock? Where have you gone?

 

[KeyTimes950]

You could have said the same thing about KDKA in the late '70s and '80s when they were pulling 25 shares.

I probably would have. After all, this was the day when KDKA still could put elevator music over its 50,000-watt blowtorch and get that sort of listenership.

But I remember something else about KDKA in the late 70s and 80s that also reflects how local radio has changed, here and across the country.

When is the last time you heard a stringer providing a report to KDKA from anyplace? I don't mean a CBS or AP actuality but someone who worked for a local station in some hinterland community? I remember the latter well, as I did such reports for KDKA.

Another Radio-Info board recently asked about local stations that still are full-service to their communities. In the late 70s and 80s, you could say that about WNCC in Barnesboro or WDAD in Indiana or WJAC or WCRO or WJNL in Johnstown or WESA in Charleroi or WASP in Brownsville or ... I could go on.

Today the handful that exist deserve comment and commendation but even the best, such as the WJPAs and Butler and Beaver county networks, are a far cry from what radio was several decades ago.

Boss, I'm with you. I have worked for numerous stations that above everything would not touch their Sunday morning preacher shows. Once as a sports talk show host I was told not to handicap football games with a pointspread because it might upset the ministers who bought such time on the station.
But show me the guy who has praised a local AM for that sort of programming on this board.

Yes, there were local owners with quirks and fears and eccentricities and concern about offending someone who helped pay the salaries. I dealt with that, too. In my time we had local Sunday morning preachers who bought time. We even weekday "morning devotion" preachers, the latter aired as a public service, by the way.

I've expressed my annoyance with those who don't provide news or public affairs or more than just the weather forecast. I pull my hair out because stations are licensed to city X and wouldn't know city X from Sodom or Gomorrah or wherever in California their national-fed network or Greentree-based chain store sends out the programming.

I also pull my hair out over a bunch of stations based in my backyard that aren't much better on that count.

I still love radio, still follow it with a passion, still focus on both the biggies and the quirky little ones. I do wonder why, sometimes, but I still love it, AM and FM and HD. (I can't afford satellite and don't have much time for the online outlets.)

 

[corporateradiosucks]

In fact, they do something that's borderline brilliant... they have a category that rotates every couple of hours that is current, mostly Alternative/AAA stuff.... (I've heard artists like the Raconteurs and the Decembrists in that spot). There isn't a classic rock-based station anywhere that could get away with that.. and they get no credit for it from anyone.

They don't get credit for it because sometimes it fits, and sometimes it just falls horribly flat, and a lot depends on who plays it.

P4L - I think you way, way, way underestimate men of your generation, which is also mine. I know lots of guys who would much rather listen to AAA than heavy metal. And yes, they do exist in Pittsburgh.

 

[Boss Radio]

You could have said the same thing about KDKA in the late '70s and '80s when they were pulling 25 shares.

I probably would have. After all, this was the day when KDKA still could put elevator music over its 50,000-watt blowtorch and get that sort of listenership.

But I remember something else about KDKA in the late 70s and 80s that also reflects how local radio has changed, here and across the country.

When is the last time you heard a stringer providing a report to KDKA from anyplace? I don't mean a CBS or AP actuality but someone who worked for a local station in some hinterland community? I remember the latter well, as I did such reports for KDKA.

Another Radio-Info board recently asked about local stations that still are full-service to their communities. In the late 70s and 80s, you could say that about WNCC in Barnesboro or WDAD in Indiana or WJAC or WCRO or WJNL in Johnstown or WESA in Charleroi or WASP in Brownsville or ... I could go on.

Today the handful that exist deserve comment and commendation but even the best, such as the WJPAs and Butler and Beaver county networks, are a far cry from what radio was several decades ago.

Boss, I'm with you. I have worked for numerous stations that above everything would not touch their Sunday morning preacher shows. Once as a sports talk show host I was told not to handicap football games with a pointspread because it might upset the ministers who bought such time on the station.
But show me the guy who has praised a local AM for that sort of programming on this board.

Yes, there were local owners with quirks and fears and eccentricities and concern about offending someone who helped pay the salaries. I dealt with that, too. In my time we had local Sunday morning preachers who bought time. We even weekday "morning devotion" preachers, the latter aired as a public service, by the way.

I've expressed my annoyance with those who don't provide news or public affairs or more than just the weather forecast. I pull my hair out because stations are licensed to city X and wouldn't know city X from Sodom or Gomorrah or wherever in California their national-fed network or Greentree-based chain store sends out the programming.

I also pull my hair out over a bunch of stations based in my backyard that aren't much better on that count.

I still love radio, still follow it with a passion, still focus on both the biggies and the quirky little ones. I do wonder why, sometimes, but I still love it, AM and FM and HD. (I can't afford satellite and don't have much time for the online outlets.)

Radio ain't what it used to be. Neither are department stores, air travel, baseball cards and a lot of other things. I suspect radio has far less importance in the lives of people than it did 50 years ago. Part of that is because of the many alternatives that exist, part of that is because radio has done an efficient job of marginalizing itself over that same time frame.

Radio will still be around, but it won't ever be as important as it once was.

 

[Parttimer]

But I want the hard-rockin' stuff cut from the AC/DC mold and I know I'm not the only one. Alternative music never did much for us who grew up with the Headbangers Ball (a membership that includes just about every American male in Generation X).

The other problem is that the "classic rock that really rocks" and other harder edged classic rock formats really never worked anywhere. It's why classic hits evolved, it touches a much broader audience.

 

[MsMusicRadio]

In Tampa, the top 3 positions in PPM are held by stations that are classic hits. WDUV (plays more than ever along with oldies), WRBQ, and WXGL------both listed as classic hits.

 

[Pratte4Life]

P4L - I think you way, way, way underestimate men of your generation, which is also mine. I know lots of guys who would much rather listen to AAA than heavy metal. And yes, they do exist in Pittsburgh.

Depends on what your definition of "men" is.

 

[Pratte4Life]

Air Travel and Baseball cards aren't what they used to be 50 years ago?

This may be the first time I've ever heard anyone wax poetic for prop planes and the Topps monopoly.

Or, for that matter, having only a player's last season of stats and then the career totals on the back of the card.

 

[Pratte4Life]

And even if what you say is true, Part, I would say the "reaching the much greater audience" mentality actually only gives mediocrity spread out, rather than broadcasting anything one really looks forward to.

And I know, I know, the next arguement is mass appeal vs. cult status of a station, but I'm not sure that's the arguement I'm trying to make.

I mentioned earlier about the lack of commercial success of artists WDVE plays that supposedly spread out a mass appeal you speak of.

But does Neil Young, who has done almost nothing since 1972, spread out a mass appeal more than Kiss, which started in 1973?

Does Neil Young, whose audience essentially is Ward Churchill-types, really generate sponsor-patronizing listeners more than Kiss, whose audience includes my beautiful 28-year-old lady friend and Shannon Tweed and is perhaps the most capitalist-friendly band ever?

That said, I will say after our last posts I turned on WDVE last night and actually liked what I heard. They were playing songs that, as you say, really rocked, ranging from Steve Miller ("Jet Airliner, not something like "Fly to the Eagles") to Nickelback, and thought a lot about what you said about the changes of the station. Perhaps they are improving. I hope so.

But every time I hear "Southern Man" on the station, I keep thinking, "Uh, Bull Connor died in 1973 and there ain't no more segregation." They might as well be playing Vaughn Monroe, it's so dated.

I honestly wouldn't say that about older Stones, The Guess Who, or Beatles- as their music is much more timeless.

But, who knows? Maybe in trying to reach the greatest audience, WDVE was trying to take listeners away from KDKA and Lynn Cullen.

 

[Boss Radio]

Air Travel and Baseball cards aren't what they used to be 50 years ago?

This may be the first time I've ever heard anyone wax poetic for prop planes and the Topps monopoly.

Or, for that matter, having only a player's last season of stats and then the career totals on the back of the card.

Air travel used to be an adventure sampled by a limited number of people. The airlines used to brag about the perks they had to pamper passengers. "Stewardesses" (not flight attendants) were glamorous young women. These days planes are Greyhounds with wings, they'll probably charge you a fee if the oxygen masks deploy, and the person making the safety speech is someone's cranky grandma.

Baseball cards used to be a disposable, spare change candy store item enjoyed by kids, whether they saved them, put them in their bicycle spokes or drew a beard on Whitey Ford. Now they're investment material to be handled with great care, then preserved in plastic sheets after you've paid several dollars per pack. What used to be a fun thing for kids has been co-opted by adult collectors/dealers.

The products exist, but their place is radically different. Same with radio.

 

[Parttimer]

But does Neil Young, who has done almost nothing since 1972, spread out a mass appeal more than Kiss, which started in 1973?

Does Neil Young, whose audience essentially is Ward Churchill-types, really generate sponsor-patronizing listeners more than Kiss, whose audience includes my beautiful 28-year-old lady friend and Shannon Tweed and is perhaps the most capitalist-friendly band ever?

Neil Young is a core AAA artist. Right in there with Dave Matthews and all of Jack White's musical incarnations. The fact that he's from another era makes that less obvious.

 

[corporateradiosucks]

Depends on what your definition of "men" is.

REALLY???

I hope you're trying to be flip and funny and failing miserably...because if you're not and you're serious, well, that's just pretty offensive, and also pretty much confirms every bad stereotype the world has about Pittsburgh.

And yes, Kiss is capitalist friendly in the same way as the Monkees, or New Kids on the Block...in other words a band created solely for the purpose of making money. Doesn't mean I don't like to rock out to them, but saying they have more widespread appeal than Neil Young is ridiculous.

 

[pman44]

EXHIBIT A: But does Neil Young, who has done almost nothing since 1972,

EXHIBIT B: But every time I hear "Southern Man" on the station, I keep thinking, "Uh, Bull Connor died in 1973 and there ain't no more segregation."

I'm just wondering to myself which bit of evidence, Exhibit A or Exhibit B, shows how out of touch with reality you are.

And, please, if playing Kiss 24/7 could bring in ratings and revenue, don't u think someone would be doing it?

 

[Pratte4Life]

The liberals have come for me! Oh, no, the liberals!

I don't know where I ever mentioned Kiss should be played 24/7. But a station that ignores them for the likes of Neil Young (or the White Stripes, or whoever else was mentioned up there) is plenty dull.

On Tuesday of last week I flew Delta. On Thursday I traveled Greyhound.

Without going into a great amount of detail, I assure you Delta was not the Greyhound on wings.

So Boss, I understand what you're saying, but anyone drawing a beard on Whitey Ford's baseball card is committing sacrilidge in any era (and please, no references to scuffing a card and Ford scuffing the ball) and Hooters Air offered the stewardesses you desired (that WE desire) yet was a dismal flop.

Though stopping for dinner off the Greyhound at a nearby resturaunt, I did have the pleasure of being served by a very beautiful and engaging waitress . . . .