TheBigA said:
SCIENTIFIC!!!! LOL LOL ok, i'll leave it there.
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Should DJs Pick Some of Their Own Music?
- Thread starter kevinsealy
- Start date
SCIENTIFIC!!!! LOL LOL ok, i'll leave it there.
doowopvault said:
Of course you will. Why believe facts when opinions are so much more fun?
That's the world we live in today, and an example of how things have changed. Fifty years ago, WABC played what it said were the most popular songs in New York. No one questioned them. If they said a song was popular, everyone agreed. That's not the case any more. Regardless of who picks the music, the DJ or a PD, you're going to have listeners who want to argue and debate whether certain songs, artists, or genres should be played. You didn't have that 40-50 years ago. People took what they got because they had no choice.
TheBigA said:
That's not the case anymore!!!! are you kidding me!!! The corporate labels decide what gets played, and people still....when it comes to the corporate owned stations.....have no choice. That is why listeners are going over to the Internet, podcasts and the independently owned radio stations. You have DJ's that do not have know nothings dictating to them about what should be played because the owner was slipped some cash from the corporate labels. They play from their own collections that they've spent a lifetime building. They are true lovers of music.As the old saying goes, they play from the heart not a corporate chart. When it comes to the corporate owned stations...it's just an investment...nothing more.
doowopvault said:
Really? Which "independently owned radio stations?" Which podcasts?
When they go to the internet, which songs are they downloading? Answer: The same songs getting airplay on the major OTA stations. So how can you say people don't want what the major stations are playing? They prove it every day. People have lots of choices, and at the end of the day, they choose the music getting airplay on OTA radio. It doesn't matter who picks it. The listeners only care about what they like. And they like what they hear on the radio, because those are the songs they buy.
FredLeonard said:
Bzzt. Wrong. Thanks for playing.
Arbitron panelists or diarykeepers do not have to listen at all to be participants. Ask anyone who has reviewed diaries in Columbia about the average of 5% that have nothing in them...
In fact, BBM in Canada did a study of those who did not listen. Seems that about half have life events where radio is excluded (travel, illness, death of a relative, wedding, etc., where they just didn't have occasion to listen) and the other half are simply not radio users at all.
Many independent surveys of media usage or entertainment options confirm the 94% to 95% weekly cume of radio. They all come in within the same very tight range of figures.
It's impossible to compare with data from 30 or 40 years ago, because the measurement methods and techniques have changed so much.
At present, the averages in PPM markets are around 12 hours a week and in the diary about 17 hours (the difference is in the more precise moment by moment methodology of PPM).
http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Arbitron/InfiniteDial2013.pdf
...shows current data on radio usage in hours vs. new media usage. The data was released yesterday.
Podcasts, if encoded, and 100% faithful to the original broadcast (all ads, promos, newscasts, etc are intact) and if listened to within a tight time frame are counted with the "main" station. Streams are counted if they are 100% simulcasts, and otherwise they are encoded and listed separately as a distinct radio station.
Arbitron does not use the term "terrestrial radio" in any case. They measure the listening to content.
doowopvault said:
Record companies have far less influence today than ever before. They don't have money to do promotions with artists, artists don't have time to do many free station events, labels are losing money...
And if you look at the 2013 edition of The Infinite Dial, you will see that podcasts are in a 4 to 5 year decline in usage. Further, there is no evidence that independent radio stations are gaining in audience or revenues.
Your only accurate statement in the whole post is that listeners are increasingly preferring new media distribution channels. But when they go to streams, they often choose radio station streams or radio station like streams. All that is changing is the distribution method.
Breaking news: most of the people who ever liked doo wop are either over 70 or dead.
Excuse me, but you have been told over and over... in the trades, online, by other posters... that the record labels have been busy trying to get radio to pay them for being able to play their music. They don't make enough money to be paying stations.
No, they are music collectors. Radio stations are not museums, and are not supposed to preserve history. Radio stations play music that they determine people to want to hear today.
That's not an old saying; you just made it up.
Practically from the time the first license was granted for a radio station, stations have been for the most part investments. To make a good income, stations have to attract an audience which advertisers will want to pay to reach. The more audience, the more the station can make. So stations have been very listener driven from the beginning... because it is good business to be that way.
DavidEduardo said:
"Most of the people that like Doo Wop are over 70 or dead"....the only response I can give to that incredibly rediculous, ignorant, ill-informed statement is....I just wish you could see the e-mails from listeners whom are in their 20's on up that I receive plus, the young people that turn out for the concerts.What that statement does is reflect the mineset that is killing radio. No creativity or imagination.To justify your dogmatic thought process, you make unfounded, uneducated statements.As Einstein once said...only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity,and i'm not sure about the former.
Yep. Hell, I battled this 13 years ago at WJUX when I eliminated the doo-wop from the playlist because it just sounded so "old" next to the "newer" tracks from the late 70's/early 80's.
SO you get some emails from people in their 20's. Those are known as outliers. The vocal minority. Whatever you call it, they aren't representative of 95% of the people in their 20's and there certainly aren't enough of them to support a format on any station that doesn't want its demos to be 70-the grave.
Sure, an oldies station will have a few outliers here or there, but not enough to float the format. That's why the demos are what they are. And if you want to play record collection on your podcast, that's great for you and your listeners. But it wouldn't be great for a BUSINESS, which is what radio is. Even non-comm radio is a business, that's why they beg 4 times a year.
doowopvault said:
As before, you totally failed to address any of the real points in my post about how stations really select music and formats and how the record industry is demanding money from radio, not giving money to stations.
Instead, you addressed my intentional "cheap shot" while leaving the real issues unattended.
Moving on...
WNTIRadio has convincingly and cogently explained the statistical concept of outliers. It applies here.
There will be a few exceptions to every rule, but the exceptions are often statistically so few and, as a group, so insignificant that the concept of outliers is totally true.
Again, most* of the people who ever liked doo wop are either over 70 or dead.
"Most" . 1) The greatest in number or degree. 2)The majority of, nearly all.
While I am using the first definition here, definition two also applies. Both definitions allow for exceptions to a greater or lesser extent.
WNTIRadio said:
For your edification...the podcast is used as an archive....i'm on a COMMERCIAL station, again, all generalities and NO facts.Plus will soon be on another COMMERCIAL station. I can't imagin a person going into an art gallery and telling the gallery owner "why don't you get rid of all this OLD art and display some new art lol. Music is art, but you and the station owners of your ilk wouldn't know anything about that, or about the stations...COMMERCIAL...that are playing this genre, but you wouldn't know because, as I said, you are not lovers of music, it's all an investment. Reminds me of the Bar/Restaurants I was DJing for, always packed and making a profit. When the owner handed it over to his son, down the tubes it went. Why? like you..the music was called "old". So he cut the staff, cut back on fresh food and ordered cheap frozen food, jacked up the cost of drinks and played 90's on up and Hip Hop. Guess what? he closed AND left his dad in debt and closed. That is what people like you are doing to the radio business.
You're a specialty show. That can exist if there are enough of the target demo alive to listen and some outliers that enjoy your program.
I have no ax to grind with you. But you're interpretation of reality is lacking. Most, 95%, of people in their 20's have NO INTEREST IN DOO WOP. Most in their 30's and 40's have no interest either. Even those in their early 60's have no interest. My mom was 13 when the Beatles were on Ed Sullivan. My dad was a few years older and loved doo wop. She had no use for it at all, and none of her friends did either. That difference of 6 years was enough to create that sharp divide. Is this true for all people? No, but as David said, statistically it is for a majority of them.
I'm not saying eliminate it completely from everywhere, but that it will exist as it does. A specialty program. A podcast. A combination of both. But as for a format, forget it!!
I have no ax to grind with you. But you're interpretation of reality is lacking. Most, 95%, of people in their 20's have NO INTEREST IN DOO WOP. Most in their 30's and 40's have no interest either. Even those in their early 60's have no interest. My mom was 13 when the Beatles were on Ed Sullivan. My dad was a few years older and loved doo wop. She had no use for it at all, and none of her friends did either. That difference of 6 years was enough to create that sharp divide. Is this true for all people? No, but as David said, statistically it is for a majority of them.
I'm not saying eliminate it completely from everywhere, but that it will exist as it does. A specialty program. A podcast. A combination of both. But as for a format, forget it!!
doowopvault said:
That's a specific about your personal show. My comment was addressed to you contention that radio listeners were defecting to podcasts (and other alternatives) and I gave you the facts, right from The Infinite Dial 2013, released Monday of this very week. Podcasts are down in usage, and have been for several years. FACT.
So, at the end of the argument, you are not defending doo wop, but your own show?
There are 11,125 commercial stations in the USA. They come in different sizes, flavors and qualities. Being on the radio, per se, is not impressive. Getting listeners is.
Let's switch the analogy. I like to see a different section of the Smithsonian each time I go to Washington. But after I leave, I never have any desire to buy an airplane made of wood and cloth or a buggy or a pot-belly heater. All those are part of America's history, and seeing the "real thing" up close is marvelous. It's history...
...Just like doo wop. I'm occasionally interested in hearing a song of that genre, particularly if a later artist mentions being influenced by a particular representative of the style. To me, and, indeed to most, doo wop has the same appeal as the Charleston... a relic of history, a curiosity, even an anomaly which occurred during a finite period of time.
Music may be art, but in many cases, it is consumable art. Perhaps not the same kind of consumable as Kleenex, but much of history's music is, as I said, viewed only as a reflection of a period of time and is no longer "popular" in the broad sense of being sought out and enjoyed, today, by significant segments of the population.
In any case, radio stations are a combination of a little bit of art and a lot of business. That's because the success of the art part depends on overall commercial success. That's why there are no "all doo wop all the time" stations and why intelligently run stations like CBS-FM have eliminated doo wop specialty shows and pretty much purged 50's music... and most 60's tunes... from the playlist.
That's about as poor an analogy as I've ever come across. What you give as an example is the same as installing a non-type accepted transmitter, running it at half power, using a dial-up phone line to connect to it and playing 96 kbs audio to its input. In other words, destroying the quality.
Nobody is saying that there are not magnificent doo wop recordings. Ones with enormous artistic and expressive quality.
What is being said is that the people to whom doo wop has a strong appeal are for the most part over 70 or dead. There's no market for the quality material of that era of music, no way to make money save for an occasional specialty show, and no interest on the part of most people.
Don't take the discussion so personally. Look objectively, and don't blame the radio industry for not programming music that has no viable commercial audience.
WNTIRadio said:
Saying it and proving it are two different things.Saying it doesn't make it so. Don't just shoot out percentages...I want proof, sources etc to prove your rediculous claim
doowopvault said:
Start with the obvious fact that WOGL and WCBS-FM quite obviously tested doo wop in the past. The fact that they no longer play any shows that the music has little to no positive appeal with the station's target listeners.
But station research, just like P&G's brand development research, is proprietary. So we judge the results of the research by looking at what stations play. It's easy to tell when a station implements music research, so we know that doo wop does not work with the audience they desire based on its absence.
Station's have nothing to gain by playing fewer songs. They would like to have as many good songs as possible. Listener selection of the music via research defines the size and extent of a playlist both in songs played and those not played and in the eras or years covered and not covered.
There is plenty of proof. It's in the fact that, other than specialty shows, doo wop does not get airplay at significant radio stations.
DavidEduardo said:
Just as I thought, no facts, just opinions and some research clowns. Well here are the facts, plenty of DJ's are on the air at independent radio stations whose genre is 1950's early 60's Doo Wop, R&B vocal groups & Rock with a mixture of soul. There are bands, and i'm not talking about the PBS shows, that sell out by the way, but the 3 day viva las vegas Doo Wop and Rockabilly concert attended by thousands young and old. Plus various shows around the country. There are Doo Wop Diners, clothing shops and record shops. There are the compilations that continue to sell. And get this...all while people like you....are saying it isn't popular. There are internet stations that are dedicated to the 50's and 60's that get tens of thousands of listeners...one received a few million hits. Now here's the question......if these stations can get tens of thousands of listeners, why wouldn't it work on radio? Here is the one important fact....it all comes down to advertisers, profit, and not just profit.....but the biggest amount of profit possible...i.e GREED!!, NOT LISTENERS!!!. If the listeners are there for internet stations playing Doo Wop...then anyone with the brain the size of a pea would know they would be there for radio.Now i've provided FACTS!!! not opinions, and not some lame crap from some research clown.So let me get back responding to requests and comments from listeners for this weeks show.
Interesting discussion regarding music formats especially "Hip Hop" Vs "Do Wop".
Not just in major markets like New York. LA or Chicago, but elsewhere, corporate
radio stations have adopted ownership policies that reflect what "target" audience
they are trying to reach, thus, for the most part, demo ages 25-54 and preferably
female, "the buying" public to focus their attention on their commercial advertisements because, after all, that is "their business". Older music genres
appeal to ages 55 plus so they can "pay" for Sirius XM satellite and get whatever
genre of music they want. I would guess if you could talk to some experts like
Bruce Morrow (Cousin Brucie"-WABC, WNBC, WCBS-FM now Sirius XM "60's on 6"
a disk jockey for 50 plus years, a former radio station owner who knows what it
was like to run a radio station then and how different it is today. It will never be
the same again as it was in the 60's/70's.
"Stonecold"Steve Williams
Not just in major markets like New York. LA or Chicago, but elsewhere, corporate
radio stations have adopted ownership policies that reflect what "target" audience
they are trying to reach, thus, for the most part, demo ages 25-54 and preferably
female, "the buying" public to focus their attention on their commercial advertisements because, after all, that is "their business". Older music genres
appeal to ages 55 plus so they can "pay" for Sirius XM satellite and get whatever
genre of music they want. I would guess if you could talk to some experts like
Bruce Morrow (Cousin Brucie"-WABC, WNBC, WCBS-FM now Sirius XM "60's on 6"
a disk jockey for 50 plus years, a former radio station owner who knows what it
was like to run a radio station then and how different it is today. It will never be
the same again as it was in the 60's/70's.
"Stonecold"Steve Williams
Are you sure you're on the radio? I mean, seriously, this is my last post on this because it's obviously arguing with the wall here:
- Doo wop diners: That's a whole experience that they are selling. But, again, how many diners across the country are doo wop vs. plain vanilla diners?
- Radio is a BUSINESS, and that business is driven by AUDIENCE SIZE. If someone had research that said there was this huge demand for doo wop, there would be doo wop formatted stations all over the place.
- It isn't MORE GREED. Get a grip. Most of the stations I contract for just get by on what they're playing now. You mean to tell me that they would be doing better playing doo wop? Get real, bud. And what's wrong with profit? If a station, especially a mom and pop operation (there are a few left) makes more money than everybody benefits. The owners I work for aren't flying around in their corporate jets, they're paying their employees.
- Your show is like a slice of cake. Great for a few hours a week, but not a format. Nobody eats cake for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
- A non-comm I programmed had a doo-wop show. It was eventually cancelled because of lack of donations/audience. You can't get any closer to direct audience feedback than the non-comm model of listener support.
It's nice that you're able to make your show work, and have stations that carry it and an audience. But you can't think that your show is the meaning of all radio and how it should be run.
David, we tried.
Where's your proof other than some requests from the P1's?
DavidEduardo said:
Here you go again....They may not be museums, but a classic hits station is just that, a station that features and plays classic hits with references to some of those years, why not?? Make it fun and flexible for the listeners. Everything on radio today does not have to be monotonous and boring.
stonecold49 said:
You are somehow attaching the "cause" on radio, radio owners and "corporations". The fact is that in large, rated markets where agency business is critical to paying the expenses and perhaps making a profit, stations have to deliver an audience that agencies and their clients want. Essentially all ad buys are targeted at all or a portion of the 18-49 or 25-54 age group. And, also essentially, there are no buys from agencies against listeners over 50 or 55.
Look at TV. Peruse the websites that present and analyze TV ratings, and you will see that shows that don't deliver significant 18-49 audiences get canceled. Why? Because agency clients don't have an interest in 50 and over.
Radio... commercial radio... simply programs for the audience groups that advertisers will buy.
Or get one of the streams on a smartphone or computer that caters to persons over 50. There are plenty of them.
It's the same today. Advertisers in the 70's looked for 18-49. They look for 18-49 today. But the 18-49's of 1960 are 70 and over today, and there are no ad buys for them at all.
So music that was part of the experience of a person who was 15 in the doo-wop years appeals to people who are at the youngest in their early 70's if they are alive at all. And that's why such music is no longer programmed except in nearly vacant dayparts, like Saturday evening, or on stations that don't have to apply a metric to ad buys, such as unrated small market stations.
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