Should IBOC Rollout Be Stopped?

[dumber than a box of hair]

If this forum did not exist, there would be no place to address the "less than honest" methods and disinformation of ibiquity.
They continue to encourage broadcasters to create willful, intentional, malicious repeated interference to their neighbors.
That is a fact.

This is a perfect example. I've been involved in several HD Radio deployments and I'll swear on a stack of bibles that I've never heard anything that even resembled malice being discussed. No broadcaster signs on an HD signal to do anything but provide better service to their listeners and eventually improve their bottom line.

If you want to continue to bury your head in the sand, be my guest. HD on AM creates interference where there was none previously. It's real. It's on the record. (Some examples of interference have even been posted on this board.) HD Radio was marketed exclusively to owners and general managers (i.e., people who are easily sold a bill of goods because that's what they do to advertisers...people who fall in love with buzzwords like "digital"), because they knew perfectly well that engineers who were worth anything would oppose it. Those owners and GMs are going to be more than just a little upset when they find that their investment in this waste of time and resources isn't going to earn them a damn thing. The receivers are deaf without outdoor or attic antennas, the programming on the FM secondaries is a joke (without even discussing how they're doomed to economic failure), the promotional and marketing efforts are a joke, and there's no demand for the product. Other than that, it's wonderful. ;D

 

[Chuck]

I'm not against people stating they don't like it and stating why. This board tends not to do that. Instead, the same people tend to post the exact same thing OVER AND OVER again in numerous topics, and it has become nothing more than a bitch session of preaching to the choir. There has been very little civil debate, and as someone still on the fence (I am concerned about interference but like the sound when the signal is processed right), I have been very turned off by the posts here against HD. Very few posts are actually thoughtful, most appear to be at the level of a junior high school debate.

Well then, why don't YOU contribute something positive? If you can post something that is well thought out and honest, I'd be more than happy to listen. I'm sure that others who frequent this area would too. You can still be friendly and have opposing positions. This is not a life or death matter. It's only radio.

And by the way, I operate a radio station on a daily basis. I attend SBE meetings, go to NAB and other large gatherings for broadcasters. I am not always right, but at least, my opinions are based on doing some research, my own first hand experience and balanced with what is good or bad for my particular situation.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

This is a perfect example. I've been involved in several HD Radio deployments and I'll swear on a stack of bibles that I've never heard anything that even resembled malice being discussed. No broadcaster signs on an HD signal to do anything but provide better service to their listeners and eventually improve their bottom line.

I have read, more than once, that one of the objectives - or results - of this roll out is that some smaller operators who are not profitable will be forced to go dark. I've read this from several proponents of IBOC, and they state it proudly like it is a GOOD thing for radio. If that isn't malice - if that doesn't hurt localism and diversity, I don't know what would be. Don't say it isn't so, I've read it here on this forum. So if jamming "the little guy" is an objective, just come right out and say it.

As far as altruistically serving the public with better sound - given the expense of the installation I doubt seriously if altruism is on anybody's mind. It is more like "convert or all your listeners will defect to stations that have converted". FEAR. Or "convert and your FM can start charging for its HD-2 stream" GREED. Altruism? Give me a break - radio isn't a charity or benevolance group, it is a business and if you are going to spend $100,000 - you expect to make that money back - somehow. Whether it is because you get listeners who used to listen to rimshots you jammed off the dial, listeners you take from poor old analog stations that don't convert, or charging for an HD- stream: Its about the money and don't say it isn't. We are more intelligent than that!

 

[Radioman100]

Thanks guys for reinforcing the negative impressions I had of this forum, and adding a brand new one, paranoia.

I can see now that the guys that gave up on you clearly had the right idea. Have fun entertaining yourselves. All the best.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

In case you missed it here is an interesting article on HD radio from 2006.
"It's Time to Call a Halt to the AM IBOC 'Experiment' and Start Talking Alternatives
-by Barry McLarnon"
"Another fact about AM IBOC that seems to be uncommon knowledge is that the hybrid system has two audio streams, a 20 kilobits-per-second "core" stream and a 16 kbps "enhanced" stream. Stereo audio is only available when the less-robust enhanced stream kicks in. When talking about the digital coverage they're obtaining, AM IBOC enthusiasts invariably neglect to mention whether they're achieving stereo audio."

"Though most of the daytime problems result from groundwave signals on second adjacents, dramatic levels of interference from first-adjacent skywave signals during critical hours have also given many of us a taste of what nighttime hybrid AM IBOC would bring: a quagmire of digital noise."

Here is the link to the "rest of the story":
http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/commentary/2006.07.19-03_rw_hd_guest_barry_2.shtml

 

[Chuck]

In case you missed it here is an interesting article on HD radio from 2006.
"It's Time to Call a Halt to the AM IBOC 'Experiment' and Start Talking Alternatives
-by Barry McLarnon"
"Another fact about AM IBOC that seems to be uncommon knowledge is that the hybrid system has two audio streams, a 20 kilobits-per-second "core" stream and a 16 kbps "enhanced" stream. Stereo audio is only available when the less-robust enhanced stream kicks in. When talking about the digital coverage they're obtaining, AM IBOC enthusiasts invariably neglect to mention whether they're achieving stereo audio."

"Though most of the daytime problems result from groundwave signals on second adjacents, dramatic levels of interference from first-adjacent skywave signals during critical hours have also given many of us a taste of what nighttime hybrid AM IBOC would bring: a quagmire of digital noise."

Here is the link to the "rest of the story":
http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/commentary/2006.07.19-03_rw_hd_guest_barry_2.shtml

I remember seeing that article, and intended to bring it to everyones attention. I thought it was VERY interesting that the AM IBOC signal is not 20 db down as we'd all been lead to believe. It is really much stronger than that. It certainly explains why it is so easy to hear the digital sidebands of an AM station at great distances. Where I am, about 135 miles from Dallas, I can clearly hear the digital hiss on each side of the DFW HD AM stations, even though it may not be easy to get acceptable reception of their analog signal. This revelation explains reasonably well why that is so.

Come to think of it, the misconception about the -20 db sidebands is not so much a result of Ibiquity's publishing incorrect information, as it is their omission of publishing correct data. I sure the correct figures are to be found somewhere in their information, but they haven't done much to make them well known to the general public. Is that sinister or not? I'll let you draw your own conclusions. To me, it's a little like Bill Gates announcing that "We have this GREAT new operating system that only needs to be rebooted once a day."

I think the most interesting part of the article was the author's statement, "This strategy may make sense to the bean counters in the large markets, but the price paid in lost or degraded analog service in outlying and rural areas is far too great. Why should these players be allowed to hijack the band and turn it to their purposes, at the expense of other legitimate users of the band."

One message board visitor has accused some of us of being paranoid. With revelations like this, Guy Wire's articles about "thinning the herd," and several other posters saying things like "tough luck that you will lose a lot of your coverage area, but there is nothing you can do about it - it's legal," why wouldn't a small station owner be a bit less than enthusiastic about HD? The last I looked "paranoid" involves an irrational fear. I don't believe there is anything irrational about not wanting to be eliminated. Self preservation is one of he strongest of all instincts.

 

[Len14043]

The receivers are deaf without outdoor or attic antennas, the programming on the FM secondaries is a joke (without even discussing how they're doomed to economic failure), the promotional and marketing efforts are a joke, and there's no demand for the product. Other than that, it's wonderful. ;D

Do you own a HD radio? I own the Radiosophy HD-100 and can receive every FM HD station in my area (Cincinnati) with the whip antenna - even when the whip is not extended. If I connect a dipole, I can receive a few out of market (Dayton) stations in HD. I realize you don't like the technology but you must intellectually honest and accept the fact that HD works well on FM. For AM, we probably share the same concerns.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

The receivers are deaf without outdoor or attic antennas, the programming on the FM secondaries is a joke (without even discussing how they're doomed to economic failure), the promotional and marketing efforts are a joke, and there's no demand for the product. Other than that, it's wonderful. ;D

Do you own a HD radio? I own the Radiosophy HD-100 and can receive every FM HD station in my area (Cincinnati) with the whip antenna - even when the whip is not extended. If I connect a dipole, I can receive a few out of market (Dayton) stations in HD. I realize you don't like the technology but you must intellectually honest and accept the fact that HD works well on FM. For AM, we probably share the same concerns.

I don't have to accept a damn thing. I've purchased three different HD receivers...and returned every one of them. I live in a large metro area less than 15 miles from most of the transmitters, and HD signals don't come in without outside antennas...and even then some have trouble. Some even switch back and forth between analog and digital in a fixed location. It does NOT work well...and it matters not one single bit whether the fault is with the transmitting or receiving end. The average consumer who encounters such a problematical tech is going to walk away from it. He or she is not going to bother stringing antennas outside or in the attic just to receive radio. It either works out of the box or it doesn't. People have been conditioned that way over the past 30-40 years, and you're not going to change that now when there are so many alternatives available.

 

[Len14043]

The receivers are deaf without outdoor or attic antennas, the programming on the FM secondaries is a joke (without even discussing how they're doomed to economic failure), the promotional and marketing efforts are a joke, and there's no demand for the product. Other than that, it's wonderful. ;D

Do you own a HD radio? I own the Radiosophy HD-100 and can receive every FM HD station in my area (Cincinnati) with the whip antenna - even when the whip is not extended. If I connect a dipole, I can receive a few out of market (Dayton) stations in HD. I realize you don't like the technology but you must intellectually honest and accept the fact that HD works well on FM. For AM, we probably share the same concerns.

I don't have to accept a damn thing. I've purchased three different HD receivers...and returned every one of them. I live in a large metro area less than 15 miles from most of the transmitters, and HD signals don't come in without outside antennas...and even then some have trouble. Some even switch back and forth between analog and digital in a fixed location. It does NOT work well...and it matters not one single bit whether the fault is with the transmitting or receiving end. The average consumer who encounters such a problematical tech is going to walk away from it. He or she is not going to bother stringing antennas outside or in the attic just to receive radio. It either works out of the box or it doesn't. People have been conditioned that way over the past 30-40 years, and you're not going to change that now when there are so many alternatives available.

What brand(s)/model(s) did you purchase?

 

[SUPERCASTER]

The receivers are deaf without outdoor or attic antennas, the programming on the FM secondaries is a joke (without even discussing how they're doomed to economic failure), the promotional and marketing efforts are a joke, and there's no demand for the product. Other than that, it's wonderful. ;D

Do you own a HD radio? I own the Radiosophy HD-100 and can receive every FM HD station in my area (Cincinnati) with the whip antenna - even when the whip is not extended. If I connect a dipole, I can receive a few out of market (Dayton) stations in HD. I realize you don't like the technology but you must intellectually honest and accept the fact that HD works well on FM. For AM, we probably share the same concerns.

I don't have to accept a damn thing. I've purchased three different HD receivers...and returned every one of them. I live in a large metro area less than 15 miles from most of the transmitters, and HD signals don't come in without outside antennas...and even then some have trouble. Some even switch back and forth between analog and digital in a fixed location. It does NOT work well...and it matters not one single bit whether the fault is with the transmitting or receiving end. The average consumer who encounters such a problematical tech is going to walk away from it. He or she is not going to bother stringing antennas outside or in the attic just to receive radio. It either works out of the box or it doesn't. People have been conditioned that way over the past 30-40 years, and you're not going to change that now when there are so many alternatives available.

What brand(s)/model(s) did you purchase?

Does that matter?
You need iBiquity's approval to make an HD radio and must agree to duplicate their basic HD "reference" design using their approved chipsets. Aside from cosmetics and a few minor peripheral "features" all HD radios are basically the same.

 

[Len14043]

What brand(s)/model(s)
Does that matter?
You need iBiquity's approval to make an HD radio and must agree to duplicate their basic HD "reference" design using their approved chipsets. Aside from cosmetics and a few minor peripheral "features" all HD radios are basically the same.
[/quote]

Duh, yes it matters. The BA is basically deaf for analog and digital. On the other hand, the Radiosophy HD-100 has sensitivity equal to the GE Super Radio with better selectivity. For the car, the JVC is an excellent choice. At a local Radio Shack, the Accurian outperforms the BA in a side-by-side comparison.

 

[calstymes]

Chuck noticed and postulated:

... I thought it was an interesting article, especially for Radio World. It reminded me of some of the things Cal Stymes was talking about some time ago. Speaking of whom, we haven't heard from him recently.

It is both surprising and appreciated you have noticed that I have not posted here recently. And what is even more surprising is that you remembered some of what I have said over the past year. I find that to be truly astounding, since I am a nobody and pale in the shadows of some of our formerly more regular participants!

For those who may care, I am still "around". It just became increasingly difficult to wade through the increasing number of self-serving posts in this topic and since I have become rather fascinated by WCBS-FM's return from JACK to a greatest hits format here in NYC I can not deny that I have been preoccupied.

I suspect that Mike Walker, RF Burns and Clouseau are boycotting the site, but it seems other "regulars" are missing too.

I suspect you are right because I have also noticed their absence! Maybe they finally decided to take my advice to heart and stop replying our resident lunatic here.

But what I am really curious about is, have the new AM nighttime IBOC rules that were approved in March been posted in the Federal Register yet? Hasn't it taken an awfully long time for that to happen? I had been anxiously anticipating the opening of the interference floodgates at night on the AM broadcast band but quite honestly, I have become bored waiting for it to happen.

Or is there something happening behind the scenes that we don't know about that has delayed the publication of the AM nighttime IBOC rules in the Federal Register?

And what of Tom Ray? I had high hopes that he would convince us beyond a shadow of a doubt that AM IBOC was a technological marvel and the way to go, but he hasn't posted since June 15 and that never happened (unless I somehow missed it), and I suspect that he too became tired of the self-serving posts here.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

What brand(s)/model(s) did you purchase?

One BA, one Radiosophy, one Accurian.

 

[Chuck]

But what I am really curious about is, have the new AM nighttime IBOC rules that were approved in March been posted in the Federal Register yet? Hasn't it taken an awfully long time for that to happen? I had been anxiously anticipating the opening of the interference floodgates at night on the AM broadcast band but quite honestly, I have become bored waiting for it to happen.

Or is there something happening behind the scenes that we don't know about that has delayed the publication of the AM nighttime IBOC rules in the Federal Register?

And what of Tom Ray? I had high hopes that he would convince us beyond a shadow of a doubt that AM IBOC was a technological marvel and the way to go, but he hasn't posted since June 15 and that never happened (unless I somehow missed it), and I suspect that he too became tired of the self-serving posts here.

As far as I know, the new AM rules have not been posted in the Federal Register. I'm certainly not as on top of this as much as some people, since I have no horse in that race. I do subscribe to some very good news groups for the radio engineering community, and they seem to be posing the same question. I also have been attending SBE meetings regularly, subscribe to the NAB daily rag and the FCC 's Daily Digest. I attend broadcasting conventions, and every broadcasting oriented publication seems to have my email or physical address. I get tons of this stuff to wade through, but so far no word about the Federal Register. If I hear about it, I'll let everyone know id someone else doesn’t do it first. It does make you wonder what is taking so long.

As for Tom, I guess he decided that posting here is futile. Maybe it is. Certainly, nothing we say is going to actually change things, and I've long ago quit following links to nowhere.

Even though 95% of the things you see here are garbage, there have been some good conversations that allowed us all to learn something. That's not all bad. I must admit I like the slower pace the forum has taken on, now that most of the shouting has died down.

The nature of newsgroups is they thrive on controversy, so I wouldn't count on things remain civil for very long. One can hope.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

What brand(s)/model(s)
Does that matter?
You need iBiquity's approval to make an HD radio and must agree to duplicate their basic HD "reference" design using their approved chipsets. Aside from cosmetics and a few minor peripheral "features" all HD radios are basically the same.

Quote from Len14043
[/quote]
Duh, yes it matters. The BA is basically deaf for analog and digital. On the other hand, the Radiosophy HD-100 has sensitivity equal to the GE Super Radio with better selectivity. For the car, the JVC is an excellent choice. At a local Radio Shack, the Accurian outperforms the BA in a side-by-side comparison.
[/quote]

Yet they are all based on the iBiquity reference design and approved chipset, which is an iBiquity requirement to use the HD Radio logo.
Could there be production run variations, workmanship problems, loose microchip tolerance, manufacturing defects, shipping damage, other reasons?
Your "Duh" just detracts from your ability to project your image as a serious, intelligent, knowledgeable poster. It's much more a reflection on you then on anyone else.

At the Radio Shacks I visited neither the BA Receptor or the Accurian could pick up any AM or FM HD signals. So I would have to say both are stone deaf.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

No HD radio reception even when the Radio Shacks visited were within plain sight of the broadcasting towers!

 

[semoochie]

I opened up a separate thread on this: I located the website of the Federal Register and check it daily. Tomorrow will mark a full 2 months since the report came out which is about 8 weeks more than I thought it would be. I was expecting 3 or 4 days.

 

[Chuck]

I opened up a separate thread on this: I located the website of the Federal Register and check it daily. Tomorrow will mark a full 2 months since the report came out which is about 8 weeks more than I thought it would be. I was expecting 3 or 4 days.

Well, I figured a week or so. Frequently, FCC public reports are posted three days after the actual date a decision was made, so even factoring that in, ten days seemed like a lot. 8 weeks makes me wonder what's going on. Keep us informed. Thanks!

 

[Tom Wells]

Nightime AM IBOC will put us in violation of international treaties.
It is one thing to break rule and law internal to the US, quite another to break ITU agreements and treaties with other nations.
If you read through Mr. Kahn's most recent postings on his site, it looks like there may be some brakes being applied legally.
I am heartened that an increasing number find ibquity's disclosure incomplete, deficient or even misleading.
A letter in a fairly recent issue of Radio World suggested something I mentioned months ago, going wideband on AM.
The writer suggested that if the FCC is permitting AM bandwidths of some 40-50khz, there is no justification for any restrictions
at all on upper end audio for analog signals.
In fact, ALL AM stations not running IBOC should immediately open up their audio passband to make the iBOCs sound even
more dull and lifeless by comparison.
As much as I still try to listen to 3 of the big AMs in Chicago 'GN, 'BBM, and 'LS, I am turning down/off and forgetting to come back
more and more since the audio is so muffled and muddy. I do not enjoy straining to distinguish what is being said above
ambient noise AND self-interference. I can listen for the traffic or some other information,
but cannot "listen" anymore without the "repellent effect" kicking in within 5-10 minutes.

 

[Chuck]

In fact, ALL AM stations not running IBOC should immediately open up their audio passband to make the iBOCs sound even
more dull and lifeless by comparison.

A quick "snip -snip" with some wire cutters and those NRSC filters could be taken out of the signal chain. Things would sound better very easily. If someone wanted to see what happened when they do this, adding an Aphex Aural Exciter (or similar BBE or even Behringer product) to the signal chain might make an AM station really "pop out" on a car radio. That might get some attention, either wanted or unwanted.

I can see how this might make an interesting legal case.