Sleeping Hound Waking Up at KCSN?

[Buckethead]

Nothing wrong with familiar songs, and that is how a station gathers cume. But the question is will they incite passion? Because passion is where the donations will come from.
I don't see anybody getting passionate about Jack-FM to the extent that they'd pay money to keep them on the air, but they do get good ratings.
If KCSN is playing a large amount of tried and true fm classics mixed with a bunch of new AAA music, will that create an audience that is passionate enough to dig into their pockets to keep the station on the air?

Somebody pointed out the passion of the audience that Indie 103.1 had. That passion wasn't created by playing a lot of familiar tried and true fm classics. Indie 103.1 was playing a deep library of songs familiar to a lot of people, but that never got played on the radio before (Radiohead, Joy Division, Bauhaus, Pixies, etc) mixed with breaking new music and local music in heavy rotation that wasn't getting played anywhere else on the radio. They managed to hover between a .5 and 1.0 for five years on a limited signal. People were devastated when they went away.

KCSN has a great opportunity and is off to a good start for sure. Give them time it will evolve.

 

[radioresearcher]

A nine page thread about a station with a 0.1...

 

[davideduardo]

Somebody pointed out the passion of the audience that Indie 103.1 had. That passion wasn't created by playing a lot of familiar tried and true fm classics.They managed to hover between a .5 and 1.0 for five years on a limited signal. People were devastated when they went away.

But Indie debuted at a 0.3 in the first PPM survey when the exaggerated TSL went away and was replaced by reality.

The new occupant of that dial position has occasionally touched the low-2 share range. I guess there is more passion for a fourth or fifth regional Mexican signal in LA than there is for the Indie programming.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Been a while since I responded. We spoke to some Indie personalities, and dialogue continues with some. I would hire Jed The Fish in a heartbeat, he is a personal friend and I think he is the penultimate alternative jock--but these are volunteer positions--and a number of personalities want paid (understandably).

We have a few more announcements coming. One that I am particularly excited about.

I don't know how an outsider (americana) would be privy to our internal business--CPB and the like, so that raises a serious red flag.

Keep offering insight, I am paying attention...

Sky,

I am quite sure americana got that information from the same place I did: The FAQ webpage the KCSN website ( http://www.kcsn.org/FAQ.html ). There are only four questions on the page and number four of four reads as follows:

Q. Why are there no on-air hosts during the week?

A. KCSN no longer receives funding from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. The station must meet a minimum threshold for audience and fundraising to be eligible for these funds. CPB funding paid the salary for our former classical on air hosts. Our inability to meet the minimum audience requirement is one of the reasons we changed the format of the station. Our goal in the next year is to become eligible for this funding so we can hire paid, professional hosts for our weekday KCSN Music Mix. Tell your friends about KCSN and help us grow the audience.

You can put the red flag away.

 

[Buckethead]

sorry- see post below---

 

[Buckethead]

David, you mistake ratings for passion.

Passion is what is required for a station to solicit donations.
Ratings is to get ad buys from agencies.

And for that close to 2.0 (lets be real, it's a 1.5) do you see them billing more than Indie did?
Have they ever had a month better than Indie did? Let's not forget the demographic and the attractiveness of the upper income demo that Indie had as opposed to ,let's face it, a less attractive demo according to advertisers.
No.
No.
Btw-Aren't you the guy who said +6 is meaningless?

While i'm at it Mr. Nay Sayer of anything Indie, we aren't talking about what might get the best ratings on a signal. If that's the case then I encourage KCSN to copy KISS FM's format.

Or, if you want to stay in the Spanish language as you seem to think is the only viable option for a station then they should copy KLVE.

But that's not what we're talking about. We are talking about what might help make KCSN more successful at their chosen approach.

 

[Buckethead]

Let me also add that KCSN, like most public broadcasters, is not shackled and buried under a 100 million dollar debt load.
Therefore they can be successful without having to go for the largest and lowest common denominator. Thank god.
They also don't have to show a 10 percent quarterly growth to their shareholders.

This is the sad reality for most commercial broadcasters. Formats that could be viable in the pre-consolidation days have a hard time surviving
on a stick that once was worth 250,000 and is now leveraged under at 100 million dollars debt.

Thank heavens for KCSN and the like.

 

[davideduardo]

David, you mistake ratings for passion.

Not at all.

Many, if not all, genres of music can generate passion. Stations of many kinds and formats can generate passion. We see that in the ratings by analyzing how many people listen to a station significantly more than all the others they listen to.

"Passion" can be expressed as "engagement" or "commitment" or even just "dominant usage."

Passion is what is required for a station to solicit donations.

It's also required for a station to solicit advertising accounts. High ratings are due either to longer times spent listening or by frequent usage... and either way, we have an indication that the station is not just useful but a part of a person's life.

Ratings is to get ad buys from agencies.

And ratings show, to a large extent, how well a station does in appealing to listeners. In fact, in a study done to determine the engagement with radio stations, it was found that format leaders in any separate format also had the highest engagement. Or, in your term, passion.

And for that close to 2.0 (lets be real, it's a 1.5) do you see them billing more than Indie did?

In sales demos, it's around a 2.0 or above, and has many close-to-2 share weeks... no matter how you look at it, it's got 3 or 4 times, at least, what Indie debuted with in the PPM.

As to billing, we know two things: KDLD depended mostly on the two successive JSAs, and, second, all the numbers for indie were pre-recession. So $3 million now is like $5 million pre-recession and KDLD today compares well with the Indies numbers, adjusted for the new economy. And it is a lot cheaper to run.

Have they ever had a month better than Indie did?

Yes, several during 2010 including May, June and July.

Let's not forget the demographic and the attractiveness of the upper income demo that Indie had as opposed to ,let's face it, a less attractive demo according to advertisers.

Most ad buys are not placed on socioeconomic factors. They are placed based on cost per point in the target age and gender demos.

Indie was introduced into the KCSN conversation; I fail to see the relevance as Indie was a diary era commercial station while KCSN has a whole different environment, including the very different demographics and psychographics of the SFV.

 

[Buckethead]

Ok cool, we'll let you have the last word on that David.

Now, back to the subject.

 

[Doctah]

David, you can't compare commercial to non-com. The whole point of non-coms are to offer up programming outside of the mainstream, fare that wouldn't exist in commercial radio because it's too niche, controversial or highly specialized.

I brought up Indie because, as we know, the Indie format ultimately was too niche for commercial radio. Yet it inspired enough passion that it could be a real draw in non-com radio. KCSN right now reports mostly hash marks. David points out that Indie had slumped to a 0.3 in its last book. If KCSN could even do half of that (and round it up to a 0.2), that would be a tremendous success.

But more importantly, if you're KCSN, you're all about trying to make some noise to get some (any) attention. That's what the Nic Harcourt hire is all about. Ditto the LA Times guy. If KCSN were to take on the Indie format, it would make enough noise to perhaps develop some sort of following. Donations follow.

 

[davideduardo]

David, you can't compare commercial to non-com. The whole point of non-coms are to offer up programming outside of the mainstream, fare that wouldn't exist in commercial radio because it's too niche, controversial or highly specialized.

I think I said that in a different way, adding that any comparison with most of the history of Indie is a very improper diary to PPM comparison. In other words, I agree with your point in that respect.

Still, Indie's two signals, as vile as they are, cover over 5 million with a 60 dbu... while KCSN covers only about 60% of that. The limitations of the signal are also limitations on expectations.

KCSN's big advantage is not having commercials. It can deviate from many of the formulae for commercial success, but there still has to be a realization that the limited signal may mean that being too specialized just won't get the needed number of donors... or anything else. Fortunately, KCSN has a good, respected and experienced programmer and if there was ever a time when something might happen, it would be now.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Been a while since I responded. We spoke to some Indie personalities, and dialogue continues with some. I would hire Jed The Fish in a heartbeat, he is a personal friend and I think he is the penultimate alternative jock--but these are volunteer positions--and a number of personalities want paid (understandably).

We have a few more announcements coming. One that I am particularly excited about.

I don't know how an outsider (americana) would be privy to our internal business--CPB and the like, so that raises a serious red flag.

Keep offering insight, I am paying attention...

Sky, as I posted before, I definitely understand the challenges you must face as you try to increase listenership/ratings/contributions, BUT, the playlist over the last few weeks has relied way too much on very familiar gold tracks.

I usually only hear the station in only in short spurts, but I spent about 40 minutes listening yesterday morning as I was driving up the 101 to visit a client and was deeply disappointed to hear The Cars, The Call, David Gray, Counting Crows, Duran Duran, Cheryl Crowe and Jesus Jones. Am I listening to KCSN or Jill? Each song on its own was fine, but that is simply way too much gold in that short of a period. In that same period I only heard four new AAA cuts including Harcourt's weekly pick at the top of the hour. After my visit, I leave about 4:20 and hear Dire Straits, Marvin Gaye, Amy Winehouse and U2. 3 out of 4 are gold. Again, not quibbling with the specific cuts (Well, maybe the U2 "New Years Day", but that is a personal thing) and I am sure you probably were playing some good stuff both before and after I tuned in, but that is what I heard in my relatively small sample.

I am a borderline listener in that I have never given before, but could be persuaded to support good local commercial-free radio with a few bucks now and then, but if you think I am paying for all the mainstream tracks I listed above - not happening. Why should I pay for cuts I can hear for free elsewhere?

Next Up: Please consider bringing back the Twang show on the weekends. I miss it and I don't know of another show like it anywhere else. It really classed up the weekend set of shows.

I've given some criticism to the new version of KCSN for playing too much gold as a percentage of the total listening day, such as my post above, but I would be remiss if I didn't also note that some of the "gold" has been quite good - more like gold nuggets.

Just within the last day or so they have played some early Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers that are not "American Girl" . Specifically I heard "Hometown Blues", an album cut off the first album, and "Casa Dega", which was originally the flip side of the "Refugee" single and otherwise pretty hard to find. Two great pulls! Also heard the Climax Blues Band with "Couldn't Get it Right" a one-hit Top 40 single from '78, but it totally worked with the mix.


I've heard other less obvious but still somewhat known songs from other artists over the last several weeks as well. The mix of many gold hits and lesser known cuts has kept the station fresh, even as it plays a high percentage of older tracks. Someone is definitely paying attention over there. Thumbs up Sky and the crew!

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Been a while since I responded. We spoke to some Indie personalities, and dialogue continues with some. I would hire Jed The Fish in a heartbeat, he is a personal friend and I think he is the penultimate alternative jock--but these are volunteer positions--and a number of personalities want paid (understandably).

We have a few more announcements coming. One that I am particularly excited about.

I don't know how an outsider (americana) would be privy to our internal business--CPB and the like, so that raises a serious red flag. 

Keep offering insight, I am paying attention...

Sky, as I posted before, I definitely understand the challenges you must face as you try to increase listenership/ratings/contributions, BUT, the playlist over the last few weeks has relied way too much on very familiar gold tracks.

I usually only hear the station in only in short spurts, but I spent about 40 minutes listening yesterday morning as I was driving up the 101 to visit a client and was deeply disappointed to hear The Cars, The Call, David Gray, Counting Crows, Duran Duran, Cheryl Crowe and Jesus Jones. Am I listening to KCSN or Jill? Each song on its own was fine, but that is simply way too much gold in that short of a period.  In that same period I only heard four new AAA cuts including Harcourt's weekly pick at the top of the hour. After my visit, I leave about 4:20 and hear Dire Straits, Marvin Gaye, Amy Winehouse and U2. 3 out of 4 are gold. Again, not quibbling with the specific cuts (Well, maybe the U2 "New Years Day", but that is a personal thing) and I am sure you probably were playing some good stuff both before and after I tuned in, but that is what I heard in my relatively small sample.

I am a borderline listener in that I have never given before, but could be persuaded to support good local commercial-free radio with a few bucks now and then, but if you think I am paying for all the mainstream tracks I listed above - not happening. Why should I pay for cuts I can hear for free elsewhere?

Next Up: Please consider bringing back the Twang show on the weekends. I miss it and I don't know of another show like it anywhere else. It really classed up the weekend set of shows.

I've given some criticism to the new version of KCSN for playing too much gold as a percentage of the total listening day, such as my post above, but I would be remiss if I didn't also note that some of the "gold" has been quite good - more like gold nuggets.

Just within the last day or so they have played some early Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers that are not "American Girl" . Specifically I heard "Hometown Blues", an album cut off the first album, and "Casa Dega", which was originally the flip side of the "Refugee" single and otherwise pretty hard to find. Two great pulls! Also heard the Climax Blues Band with "Couldn't Get it Right" a one-hit Top 40 single from '78, but it totally worked with the mix.


I've heard other less obvious but still somewhat known songs from other artists over the last several weeks as well. The mix of many gold hits and lesser known cuts has kept the station fresh, even as it plays a high percentage of older tracks. Someone is definitely paying attention over there. Thumbs up Sky and the crew!

>>>Moderator, please remove inadvertent double post. Thanks!<<<

 

[Skyboyrox]

Thanks, Channelflipper. It remains a growth concern. Every Sunday I am at the station ripping in more Gold such as the ones you mention. Scouring playlist archives, both locally and nationally for inspiration/reminders.

The local Gold is a real mission--Long Ryders, Great Buildings, Love, etc. We welcome suggestions via Equests @kcsn.org

BIG news coming next week. I still can't believe what is coming next myself!

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Thanks, Channelflipper. It remains a growth concern. Every Sunday I am at the station ripping in more Gold such as the ones you mention. Scouring playlist archives, both locally and nationally for inspiration/reminders.

The local Gold is a real mission--Long Ryders, Great Buildings, Love, etc. We welcome suggestions via Equests @kcsn.org

BIG news coming next week. I still can't believe what is coming next myself!

If you could find some time for New Riders of the Purple Sage, that would be great, although they are more of a SF band in the Grateful Dead circle.

 

[Doctah]

Uh-oh, all this Gold talk is concerning me. Sounds like another case of a AAA morphing into oldies/classic rock. I suppose if you've decided that 35-64 is your demo that's OK. But it's a shame the market can't support a vibrant AAA that focuses on the new, new, new.

 

[raylee]

Thanks, Channelflipper. It remains a growth concern. Every Sunday I am at the station ripping in more Gold such as the ones you mention. Scouring playlist archives, both locally and nationally for inspiration/reminders.

The local Gold is a real mission--Long Ryders, Great Buildings, Love, etc. We welcome suggestions via Equests @kcsn.org

BIG news coming next week. I still can't believe what is coming next myself!

If you could find some time for New Riders of the Purple Sage, that would be great, although they are more of a SF band in the Grateful Dead circle.

I concur - definintely need more NRPS - especially anything off their 1st record - the white one with Jerry on peddle steel - a good set of "old gold + new gold" would include "Henry" off that one, and Railroad Earth's "warhead boogie" and maybe add to that one of Waylon Jennings hits like lonsome, ornery and mean

 

[Skyboyrox]

Doctah. Do not read too much into the deeper Gold. We are 45% Current. Compare that, to say, KROQ's 18% Current. We probably play as much new music as any Triple A in a major market.

 

[david]

BIG news coming next week. I still can't believe what is coming next myself!

Hi Sky....It is now near the end of "next week". Can you share what the BIG news is yet? I went to KCSN.org but the top announement there is still the now older news item about the arrival of Julie Slater for a weekend show.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

BIG news coming next week. I still can't believe what is coming next myself!

Hi Sky....It is now near the end of "next week". Can you share what the BIG news is yet? I went to KCSN.org but the top announcement there is still the now older news item about the arrival of Julie Slater for a weekend show.

OK Sky, the end of the week has come and I don't hear anything other than the same music mix and crickets. Is it taking longer to nail down the details than you thought? (damn details are always getting in the way, delaying for weeks what should be done in days - I know. Happens in my job all the time).

Well, don't let them off the hook, you have a great thing coming, you've let people know and now you need to get them to man up, step up to the plate, and get the deal done.

We'll be watching.