Small market formats in nc

[XTalker]

I have been trying to reduce to writing how I would operate a dandy little home town station and have the idea of a "process" that will create sound tid-bits to feed into the mix all day and all night long to achieve that "sitting around the kitchen table" sound. I needed a name for that process so I went to my wordsmith daughter. She came up with one but it doesn't have much ring with the rank and file listener. The word would have to be explained and "sold" to the audience.

Her answer: What you are trying to do is salon.

Our grandparents might have understood the word parlor without so much explaining.

Water cooler, coffee shop, fireside chats (an oldie but goodie), of course it would be important to embrace some of today's technology like TXT and IM. I think a combination of music and talk (some times politics, sometimes lifestyles) could work.

Local news and sports - local name dropping! High school football, basketball and baseball play by play, add a college network and some racing (maybe even from a local track).

I am going to start saving my money for the firesale! Would love to have a small station in eastern NC! My home is in Winston-Salem, but my heart is in Wilmington.

 

[w00t]

Local news and sports - local name dropping! High school football, basketball and baseball play by play, add a college network and some racing (maybe even from a local track).

Much of this is already being done by two different stations in Greenville. 1250/930 and 94.3. Both are talkers. That was my point earlier... I don't know how "small" you all are talking, but some places already have this and it works well.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Much of this is already being done by two different stations in Greenville. 1250/930 and 94.3. Both are talkers. That was my point earlier... I don't know how "small" you all are talking, but some places already have this and it works well.

Oh, I think each of us has a different view of what makes up a "small market". Pitt County has a population of what.... maybe 135,000? And the town, the CITY of Greenville is what? Half of that? If you count all the stations within 20 miles (that would include Farmville and Winterville) you have 5 FMs and 5 AMs maybe plus about that many NCEs and translators and LPFM. I'm not there to see for myself, but I have to believe the operators there operate under the 'ground rules' of CITY broadcasting. Maybe one good operator could adopt some of what we are talking about here in 'local service' being the core of your programming mold but the cut-throat competition of 10 or so stations may not allow that to thrive. I'm AM NOT saying these stations don't provide any community service. I AM assuming it is not the core of their programming.

quote from Xtalker:

Water cooler, coffee shop, fireside chats (an oldie but goodie), of course it would be important to embrace some of today's technology like TXT and IM. I think a combination of music and talk (some times politics, sometimes lifestyles) could work.

My home town in Arkansas is truly a small market. It was so thin for business that they let the AM go dark and then the next owner took the FM to be a rimshot to the nearest 'city'... a market the size of Greenville. So, hometown does not have a station any more. My wife's family has a genealogy discussion board set up. Some of the family members got the bright idea of obtaining another family web site from the vendor and made THE TOWN into a FAMILY. It's the darndest thing I've ever seen. News. Gossip. Pictures. Recipes. History documents. I look at the site and realize if I had a '2-cup tea-pot' station there, I could go to that site daily and have somethings to talk about: "Happy Birthday, Jimmy Bartsch." and half a dozen ideas on people to call on the phone and get quick sound-bytes about events in town to dump into the automation machine. By participating in such a site and using it as a 'bully pulpit' I think I could talk people into sending 20 or 30 e-mails and Instant Messages to the station each day with material we could air.

If I took over a small market station today, WE WOULD have a 'family website' for the community.

 

[quadraphonic]

Is it WBAG 1150 in Burlington that does local track races from Ace Speedway?
WBAG would be a good small-market station, in Burlington, concentrates on Alamance County, doesn't try to cram into Greensboro or Durham, except with some traffic reports, because so many people commute. A local-originated talk show in the mornings, some satellite standards/oldies all day, a local oldies show in the afternoon, and lots of local sports, Elon Universitystuff, even kid ballgames.
Ted Gray knows what he's doing, from what I've heard. And on 24 hours, too.

And 920 WPCM in Burlington does great local stuff. It's Curtis Media, but it's run like a mom-and-pop should be, except it should go back to being WBBB.

 

[allenv]

Woot,
I enjoy both 94.3 and 1250.They both do what they do well but they are hardly
serving the community.Both stations actually serve a rather small faction of the community.Alot of what goes on in their respective coverage areas is never mentioned on either station.Both are not close to being Full Service stations
for the community.Both stations narrowcast to a somewhat small but very vocal
audience and there is alot of overlap in what the stations do.The big difference is
94.3 is 85% politics and 1250 and 930 is 80% sports.94.3 needs a live afternoon show badly in my opinion.Why they don't do one is beyond me.Again I enjoy both
stations but there is no way they can be full service with such small staffs.To do it right it takes people and to get people you have to spend the money...There is a hole for a genuine full service station in Pitt Co in my opinion...

Allen

 

[virgilstreetnc]

Excellent conversation regarding small market, but one area neglected is price or value of small stations in eastern nc.

Xtalker says he's saving for the firesale. About how much do you think you'll need. And how much do you expect the lower or stabilized price to be compared to what it is now. Is a $500,000 station going to be worth half? What about a smaller $250,000 station today? Some of you feel the prices will go down, but how far?

While I don't expect anyone to give up what they paid for a station, I'd be interested to hear what some of you owners, and non-owners think small radio value is.

 

[w00t]

Woot,
I enjoy both 94.3 and 1250.They both do what they do well but they are hardly
serving the community.Both stations actually serve a rather small faction of the community.Alot of what goes on in their respective coverage areas is never mentioned on either station.Both are not close to being Full Service stations
for the community.Both stations narrowcast to a somewhat small but very vocal
audience and there is alot of overlap in what the stations do.The big difference is
94.3 is 85% politics and 1250 and 930 is 80% sports.94.3 needs a live afternoon show badly in my opinion.Why they don't do one is beyond me.Again I enjoy both
stations but there is no way they can be full service with such small staffs.To do it right it takes people and to get people you have to spend the money...There is a hole for a genuine full service station in Pitt Co in my opinion...

Allen

There isn't much more they can do however. The market supports them, and supports them well, but there is definitely a limit on advertising dollars in this city. We accept Henry and Troy as talkers because they own the stations and have a long history here. Any decent talker they hire for an afternoon show would cost SO much money it just wouldn't be possible.

That and I like listening to Hannity and Packman, especially the latter. Leave the shows be

 

[w00t]

Oh, I think each of us has a different view of what makes up a "small market". Pitt County has a population of what.... maybe 135,000? And the town, the CITY of Greenville is what? Half of that? If you count all the stations within 20 miles (that would include Farmville and Winterville) you have 5 FMs and 5 AMs maybe plus about that many NCEs and translators and LPFM. I'm not there to see for myself, but I have to believe the operators there operate under the 'ground rules' of CITY broadcasting. Maybe one good operator could adopt some of what we are talking about here in 'local service' being the core of your programming mold but the cut-throat competition of 10 or so stations may not allow that to thrive. I'm AM NOT saying these stations don't provide any community service. I AM assuming it is not the core of their programming.

I actually don't really consider Greenville a small market. When I think small I think more like "station in a town of 5,000 people." Farmville getting a station would be small market. But I just don't know that it's a business model that works anymore unless you have some big history to keep building on. Opening a station in a place like that, advertising it enough, getting the residents to accept it and listen to the point that you make decent money would be damn near impossible and require a commitment that few want to do. If anything, it would have to be a local businessperson that everyone already knows.

 

[firecop947]

As far as a stations price? I know that back in 1995 Jim Kelso and myself looked at buying an am in Kinston. It was 1230 WISP which became WLNR. The owner really didn't want to spend money on it and said we could have it for $75,000 and lease his tower and studio space. We considered it for a time, but just could not see how it could make any money. I wanted to do classic country/sports. Kelso, God love him, wanted Big Bands.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

I actually don't really consider Greenville a small market. When I think small I think more like "station in a town of 5,000 people." Farmville getting a station would be small market. But I just don't know that it's a business model that works anymore unless you have some big history to keep building on. Opening a station in a place like that, advertising it enough, getting the residents to accept it and listen to the point that you make decent money would be damn near impossible and require a commitment that few want to do. If anything, it would have to be a local businessperson that everyone already knows.

Ahhhh.. but Farmville HAS a station. WGHB - 1250. For purposes of radio Farmville is simply a part of the Greenville radio scene. Did WGHB ever operate as a Farmville station? I don't know. If it were for sale today would I buy it and try to operate it as though Farmville were a separate market? Probably not. The seller would want a sale price based on it's perceived value as a Greenville station. You have to have a business plan that projects advertising sales adequate to support your proposed operating expenses AND returning enough earnings to justify what you invested in the purchase.

If you are 24 years old and you can come up with cash and credit to pay $150,000 or less to get a station, you may have to go to a town of 4,000 to 6,000 people and operate a station that may have a total advertising sales of $90,000 to $160,000 per year. You bust yourself for a few years, sell your station for a profit, build your borrowing power on your winning track record and then you qualify for admission to a market like Greenville or better.

If your town of 6,000 people is in a county of only 15,000 people, you may have a rough time finding that $90,000 or more a year in advertising. On the other hand if you find a town of 4,000 people that is the trading center for the county population of 40,000 people you might be able to sell advertising to the point other broadcasters come over and visit in hopes of learning your secrets.

Yes, it would be nice for your first station to be in a market of 90,000 people and have gross advertising sales of $900,000 per year. But that's only a fantasy if you can't come up with a million and a half to five million to buy the station.

 

[ZAX Double J]

Excellent conversation regarding small market, but one area neglected is price or value of small stations in eastern nc.

Xtalker says he's saving for the firesale. About how much do you think you'll need. And how much do you expect the lower or stabilized price to be compared to what it is now. Is a $500,000 station going to be worth half? What about a smaller $250,000 station today? Some of you feel the prices will go down, but how far?

While I don't expect anyone to give up what they paid for a station, I'd be interested to hear what some of you owners, and non-owners think small radio value is.

Lets see given that the tower and transmitter are the largest costs in terms of equipment, the buildings and land would be the largest cost of the whole deal $125,000 or even $75,000 sounds reasonable. Houses go for more than that! Yes "selling" it to the community would be difficult but not impossible if done right.

 

[w00t]

As far as a stations price? I know that back in 1995 Jim Kelso and myself looked at buying an am in Kinston. It was 1230 WISP which became WLNR. The owner really didn't want to spend money on it and said we could have it for $75,000 and lease his tower and studio space. We considered it for a time, but just could not see how it could make any money. I wanted to do classic country/sports. Kelso, God love him, wanted Big Bands.

I used to listen to his show on 89.3 on Saturday nights. That was the only way I'd ever heard him or his work, but he was really knowledgeable about the music. Me even being only 16-17 or so I enjoyed listening to it.

 

[w00t]

Ahhhh.. but Farmville HAS a station. WGHB - 1250.

Well actually in that case Farmville has two stations, and they've already both been mentioned
1250 and 94.3 used to be co-owned. It's funny to me that they now have a cutthroat competition.

For purposes of radio Farmville is simply a part of the Greenville radio scene. Did WGHB ever operate as a Farmville station? I don't know.

Yes it did years ago. It was WFAG and played country I think.

If it were for sale today would I buy it and try to operate it as though Farmville were a separate market? Probably not. The seller would want a sale price based on it's perceived value as a Greenville station. You have to have a business plan that projects advertising sales adequate to support your proposed operating expenses AND returning enough earnings to justify what you invested in the purchase.

Okay and this was my point exactly. You just put it more detailed than me

Plymouth supports a local station. 95.9 WPNC. THAT is a small market. I haven't heard WPNC in years (Greenville has a WRTP translator on 95.9 now) so I'm not really sure what they're doing these days but I don't really recall it being a bastion of community events back when I did get to hear it. IIRC it was pretty much a jukebox. A wide variety jukebox yes, but nonetheless just a jukebox. They sell enough ads to make it work though.

If you are 24 years old and you can come up with cash and credit to pay $150,000 or less to get a station, you may have to go to a town of 4,000 to 6,000 people and operate a station that may have a total advertising sales of $90,000 to $160,000 per year. You bust yourself for a few years, sell your station for a profit, build your borrowing power on your winning track record and then you qualify for admission to a market like Greenville or better.

Or get capital backing to buy a cluster the size of Inner Banks/Archway. Those stations could have worked if they weren't run by idiots.

We see this differently. I don't see why you would go to a hole in the wall town and bust your butt working for peanuts when you could probably swoon some venture capitalist into investing in a large market. As Clear Channel sells off piecemeal I have a feeling we're going to see that happen more and more.

If your town of 6,000 people is in a county of only 15,000 people, you may have a rough time finding that $90,000 or more a year in advertising. On the other hand if you find a town of 4,000 people that is the trading center for the county population of 40,000 people you might be able to sell advertising to the point other broadcasters come over and visit in hopes of learning your secrets.

That is rare. Most stations in a town like that are struggling to make ends meet.

This is the best way I know to describe radio as a whole. Radio is like Ford and GM. They pissed off the customers over the past 20 years to the point nobody wants to come back. I drive GM and get derided by my Honda and Toyota driving coworkers about it. I can see past the fact that the cars aren't crap anymore, but they can't. Because of it I'm paying less money for my full size car than any of them are paying for 4 cylinder midsizers.

That's what radio is now. It's cheap (well, free) and those who love it, love it well. Those who don't just don't understand. And until some big event happens to make them change their minds it's likely to remain this way. That mentality applies in most ALL markets, small or large. The difference is that Clear Channel has a million plus people to sell WRVA and it's two DJ's to. WPNC has one county, barely, with maybe 10,000 people (?) to sell the same thing. Apples to apples, which situation would you like to be in?

 

[ZAX Double J]

They pissed off the customers over the past 20 years to the point nobody wants to come back

This is exactly what radio has done with it's super tight playlists and no on-air talent.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

If you are 24 years old and you can come up with cash and credit to pay $150,000 or less to get a station, you may have to go to a town of 4,000 to 6,000 people and operate a station that may have a total advertising sales of $90,000 to $160,000 per year. You bust yourself for a few years, sell your station for a profit, build your borrowing power on your winning track record and then you qualify for admission to a market like Greenville or better.

Or get capital backing to buy a cluster the size of Inner Banks/Archway. Those stations could have worked if they weren't run by idiots.

We see this differently. I don't see why you would go to a hole in the wall town and bust your butt working for peanuts when you could probably swoon some venture capitalist into investing in a large market. As Clear Channel sells off piecemeal I have a feeling we're going to see that happen more and more.

If you can arrange for that kind of capital backing, my congratulations and best wishes on your venture.

The reason anyone, whatever their age, would go acquire a "frog of a station" and then run around kissing everyone in town is to build your track record. Your resume. Then you go looking to see if the frog has turned into a princess for you.

The people who get venture capitalist investment of the amount needed to buy a cluster have proven they can sell advertising first of all, and that they can manage a high intensity operation. Beginners and un-proven dreamers need not apply.


At my place in life, I don't want a cluster. I want a frog. But it has to be a property and market place that I could nurse it into a very healthy and happy frog.

 

[w00t]

This is exactly what radio has done with it's super tight playlists and no on-air talent.

I never hear anyone complain about that, but I do hear people complain about too many commercials and bad on air talent. The one thing radio of old had that radio of new doesn't is good talent. I'd rather hear good talent voicetrack than suffer through someone who shouldn't even be doing the PA in a grocery store. I hear airchecks of small hole in the wall Top 40 AM's who had more compelling talent than some big market stations do today.

CC's "Less Is More" was a step in the right direction to remedy the complaints about long stopsets and too many commercials. Shorter stopsets are a win-win for both the listener and the advertiser. Advertisers who get stuck in the middle of a 8 minute stopset aren't even beginning to get what they paid for. If you can prove more people are listening through your stopsets you can charge more for the ads, and if not just break even, make even more money.

 

[w00t]

If you are 24 years old and you can come up with cash and credit to pay $150,000 or less to get a station, you may have to go to a town of 4,000 to 6,000 people and operate a station that may have a total advertising sales of $90,000 to $160,000 per year. You bust yourself for a few years, sell your station for a profit, build your borrowing power on your winning track record and then you qualify for admission to a market like Greenville or better.

Or get capital backing to buy a cluster the size of Inner Banks/Archway. Those stations could have worked if they weren't run by idiots.

We see this differently. I don't see why you would go to a hole in the wall town and bust your butt working for peanuts when you could probably swoon some venture capitalist into investing in a large market. As Clear Channel sells off piecemeal I have a feeling we're going to see that happen more and more.

If you can arrange for that kind of capital backing, my congratulations and best wishes on your venture.

The reason anyone, whatever their age, would go acquire a "frog of a station" and then run around kissing everyone in town is to build your track record. Your resume. Then you go looking to see if the frog has turned into a princess for you.

The people who get venture capitalist investment of the amount needed to buy a cluster have proven they can sell advertising first of all, and that they can manage a high intensity operation. Beginners and un-proven dreamers need not apply.


At my place in life, I don't want a cluster. I want a frog. But it has to be a property and market place that I could nurse it into a very healthy and happy frog.

These days you don't need experience if you have a good enough business plan. If they do want experience, you hire a manager who has it.

The one benefit I can see to owning one small station is that you become synonymous with it and you truly could have something to be proud of. Other than that, I'd rather own 20 stations than 1

 

[ZAX Double J]

This is exactly what radio has done with it's super tight playlists and no on-air talent.

I never hear anyone complain about that, but I do hear people complain about too many commercials and bad on air talent. The one thing radio of old had that radio of new doesn't is good talent. I'd rather hear good talent voicetrack than suffer through someone who shouldn't even be doing the PA in a grocery store. I hear airchecks of small hole in the wall Top 40 AM's who had more compelling talent than some big market stations do today.

I'll agree there. I'm not the best air talent in the world, but I try. I guess those guys had something that I don't plenty of talent and experience.

CC's "Less Is More" was a step in the right direction to remedy the complaints about long stopsets and too many commercials. Shorter stopsets are a win-win for both the listener and the advertiser. Advertisers who get stuck in the middle of a 8 minute stopset aren't even beginning to get what they paid for. If you can prove more people are listening through your stopsets you can charge more for the ads, and if not just break even, make even more money.

Again I agree an 8 minute stopset is rediculus. No one in thier right mind would want to listen to that many commercials. And is counter productive for both.

 

[w00t]

I wasn't directing the bad talent part at you, I hope you didn't think I was. I've actually never even heard you on air since I can't get the Rocky Mount stations in Greenville.

I wasn't really directing it at anyone in particular actually. I hear rough sounding talent everywhere I go; just the nature of the beast I guess. I didn't think I was all that good when I was still in radio.

 

[ZAX Double J]

I wasn't directing the bad talent part at you, I hope you didn't think I was. I've actually never even heard you on air since I can't get the Rocky Mount stations in Greenville.

I wasn't really directing it at anyone in particular actually. I hear rough sounding talent everywhere I go; just the nature of the beast I guess. I didn't think I was all that good when I was still in radio.

Oh I know you were't directing the comment at me and I didn't take it as such I was just saying that I know I don't know everything about this business and yes these are only my opinions. Even I have heard bad air talent. It is apart of the beast. Humm.. you should get at least 98.5 and 95.5 and depending on where you are at in Greenville (NC) 99.3 which I am on on Sunday mornings albeit voice tracked.