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Snow seems to be good for MW dx

B

BRNout

On a snowy evening in Jacksonville, IL (about 90 mi N of St. Louis), I was able to pick up clear signals from WABC, WCBS, WBZ, KYW, WPHT, WGY, KOA (an easy one) and tougher ones like KSL and WWLS Oklahoma City. Those last 2 are tough ones - KSL is about 1150 miles from here and WWLS should only be at 1000 watts by 8 pm CT. Never picked up either one before from Illinois. Got WWLS by looking for KFI. It was probably too early for that though. I was impressed to pull in strong signals ranging from New England to the Intermountain West.

Even the SW bands are pretty clear tonight with the WWV signals on 5000, 10000 (with WWVH) and 15000 kHz and CHU on 3330 and 7850 all coming in perfectly clear. Fairly unusual for this time of the year.
 
For what it's worth, I've been getting WABC, WFAN, WCBS, KYW, and WPHT much better at down here in Florida the last three nights. Until Sunday night, I hadn't been able to pick up KYW at all and the last time I heard it was years ago when it was pretty much a regular. Also another station I'm getting at night here now is WIOD Miami and WFTL 850 from the same area that dominates the frequency making it hard to hear KOA which usually is a regular.
 
I heard WIND 560 from where else, Chicago, for the first time here in N. Alabama a few nights ago. Clear as a bell for a few, and then it was gone.
 
It may just be the cold - I've had incredible stuff on the top part of the AM band here in Dallas.
 
Half-kidding here ..... I think .... But might the actual land snow cover off the ocean's salt water propogate MW DX better than the snow cover off, say, the Great Lakes?
 
maybe with nearly a million homes without power...interference is slightly reduced.
 
I think I'm also getting better reception on MW, too. At 11:00 I'm getting Cleveland's WTAM and WYSL 1040 up in Syracuse, NY, here in VA
 
I've been wondering about the difference between propagation over land as opposed to water as far as what the difference is, if any, between plain water and salt water. I always used to assume it was just any large body of water that would increase it but it seems that's not the case. Also, there don't seem to be DXing reports regarding the Great Lakes. Compare the signal coverage of two 50kw non-directional stations near water - WFAN and WLS. Notice the difference in land and water coverage for WFAN. http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WFAN&service=AM&status=L&hours=U And now for WLS, where there's no difference at all. http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WLS&service=AM&status=L&hours=U
 
ALRocker said:
I heard WIND 560 from where else, Chicago, for the first time here in N. Alabama a few nights ago. Clear as a bell for a few, and then it was gone.
Click to expand...

That's pretty good, considering that WIND is non-existent in central IL at night! Their nighttime directional signal skews north-northwestward, toward Wisconsin with a slight null in your direction. So, I'd have to say that you had a great catch!

gar fla said:
I've been wondering about the difference between propagation over land as opposed to water as far as what the difference is, if any, between plain water and salt water. I always used to assume it was just any large body of water that would increase it but it seems that's not the case. Also, there don't seem to be DXing reports regarding the Great Lakes. Compare the signal coverage of two 50kw non-directional stations near water - WFAN and WLS. Notice the difference in land and water coverage for WFAN. http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WFAN&service=AM&status=L&hours=U And now for WLS, where there's no difference at all. http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WLS&service=AM&status=L&hours=U
Click to expand...

Salt water provides better ground conductivity than fresh water; however, fresh water's conductivity is not bad by any means. MW signals do carry pretty well across the Great Lakes. An example of this is WHFB Benton Harbor, MI who's 5 kw daytime signal reaches many of Chicago's northern suburbs. A quick look at their expected coverage actually shows quite a difference in land vs. water coverage: http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WHFB&service=AM&status=L&hours=D.

The thing with WLS and the other big Chicago AMs is that none are located on the water, as is the case with WFAN and WCBS - and groundwave propagation across Lake Michigan isn't going to assist them in picking up any additional listeners in-market. Remember that ground conductivity in the midwest is generally much better than it is in the northeast. So, it isn't that there is so much difference in propagation between salt water and fresh water (yes, there is some) - in this case the details matter a lot too. Having your tx site right on Long Island Sound provides a straight shot across most of Long Island, southern CT and into most of NJ (across NYC). There, or in the low-lying Meadowlands, are two very good spots to put an AM transmitter because of the irregular geographical layout of the area. Remember that granite underlies much of the area north of Manhattan - and it has lousy ground conductivity. You'd lose a lot of range by sticking a 50 kw transmitter in Westchester, for example. Which is why none of the big NY signals are based there.

There is no such arrangement necessary in Chicago. Addison works just as well at reaching the market as Evanston would, if not better by being closer to the middle of the market. Not to mention that Lake Michigan is tiny when compared with the Atlantic Ocean. Not as much to be gained by being right on the lake. So, your example is a bit more like comparing apples and oranges than you may have initially thought.
 
Now I see the difference and didn't take into account the exact positions of the transmitters. My initial assumption about all bodies of water in general being the same wasn't too far off the mark, I guess, but the salt is still a factor.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
It may just be the cold - I've had incredible stuff on the top part of the AM band here in Dallas.
Click to expand...

Agree...perhaps also the low sun angle this time of year. AM band here in Northern Illinois has been the same way for the past couple of weeks...extending even to the middle part of the band. Today....KXEL from Waterloo, IA, normally absent daytime, was booming in like a local at around 1:45pm.
 
If there's a continuous snow cover from NYC to Chicago, would stations from one market reach the other in the day?
 
It's pretty rare, but in a couple of instances I've experienced mid day skip from the east coast to the Chicago area. I don't believe it was because of the snow cover, but in both instances that I experienced it the skip occurred in December close to the shortest day of the year and during the inactive part of the sunspot cycle.
Someone else may have more info as to why this happens. I do know it's rare.
 
The farthest east that I have gotten daytime dx from Chicago was near Ottawa, Ontario. And yes, that was during the winter with snow cover pretty much from Chicago to Ottawa (WBBM and WSCR). However, there were some things happening there that would not be the case between Chicago and the east coast:

1) A lot of clear space on the AM band in Canada;
2) Ottawa is still west of the Appalachian range with it's poor ground conductivity; and,
3) The signal path is across 2 great lakes and lower Michigan (most of it relatively level with good GC).

Even with an empty dial, it's really difficult to get groundwave dx from anywhere west of the Appalachian range to the east coast. Even KDKA Pittsburgh is pretty much impossible to catch in the Philadelphia or Harrisburg areas during the day, let alone stations from Cleveland, Detroit or Chicago. The signal just dies in the mountains. Once you're into far western PA and NY (along Erie), the path is more kind and those midwest stations can start showing up during the day.
 
On several occasions, I received WHAM and WBZ during the middle of the day in Cincinnati. This occurs mostly in the winter, but WHAM came in during the day in the summer on a few occasions. I received WLW during the day in Davenport, Iowa, but that may be groundwave and not skip. Perhaps someone can give us a report from the Davenport area on WLW.
 
I lived in the Quad Cities in the mid 70s. WLW daytime was definitely do-able in an open area with a good car radio.

I didn't mean to be rude earlier with my one word ("no") post. Salt water has excellent conductivity...fresh water (including snow) does not. Daytime skywave happens from time to time in the winter with or without snow on the ground.

Ottawa? This past fall, I had WWKB, WBZ, WCBS, and a few others during my 120 drive from Ottawa to Montreal almost like locals. No snow anywhere, but perhaps someone needs to study the conductivity of newly fallen leaves. :)

Chicago Stations? I drive the 401 from Windsor to Toronto a 2-3 times a year. Chicago blowtorches are usually audible to one extent or another for about the first 60 miles (100km) of the drive. I usually lose them somewhere between Chatham and London. I've never heard them in Ottawa myself during the daytime, but I'm not surprised that it happens. I have heard Toronto's CHWO (or whatever it is now) at my location northwest of Chicago during a couple of winter daytimes.
 
cyberdad said:
I didn't mean to be rude earlier with my one word ("no") post. Salt water has excellent conductivity...fresh water (including snow) does not. Daytime skywave happens from time to time in the winter with or without snow on the ground.
Click to expand...

WJR and CKLW seem to benefit from the overwater path across Lake Erie in that they are easily receivable in Buffalo. Likewise, WGR (550 Buffalo) can be heard in Detroit during the day. You are correct about salt water having excellent conductivity. KSL induces receiver overload about 50 miles from the tower across the Great Salt Lake. Even the low powered Utah stations blast in when listened to in the desert across the GSL.
 
Cyberdad, I thought you did hear WBBM in Ottawa a year ago during the daytime in the winter, unless I'm mistaking that for a trip to the Ottawa Valley (west of Ottawa on the 417). WBBM DOES come in during the day in December and parts of January in Ottawa. I've also heard them in Toronto during winter days.
 
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