• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Something that actually WORKS on AM

The problem, though, isn't the neighborhood, its the programming. You take a hood rat out of the hood, and place him in the rich neighborhood, he is still a hood rat. Rush in stereo is still Rush. If the ratings are slowly declining, perhaps they are witnessing a slow decline not of the bad, but of the format. People are getting tired of what is on AM, so they migrate to FM. Not necessarily because of technical issues, but because of programming issues.

It's not programming, it is the combination of signal, noise and sound and receiver quality.

To anyone who did not grow up listening to music on AM the band sounds dreadful. Those that do tolerate the sound are in their 60's now.

Talk sounds infinitely better on FM. It sounds like the hosts were right there with you, not down a funnel.

AM noise levels have increased the minimum signal strength needed to achieve clear listening... about 10 mV/m now in major metros.

AM receivers are far worse than they were 50 years ago.

And, the biggie: in most markets, there are very few if any stations that cover the entire metro day and night. Houston comes close to having one... KTRH. Just one. All the rest have areas in the Metro Survey Area that have inadequate or no signal. So those stations can not truly compete with the FMs for any format except talk, sports, religion, ethnic and niche music formats.

We saw back in the 70's that music format AMs that were better programmed than new FMs in the same format still lost due to the quality and signal issues. So if the great AM programming back then "when everyone listened to AM" could not hold off the upstart FMs, how could formats that also exist on FM work on inferior, noisy, inadequate signals today?
 
Talk sounds infinitely better on FM. It sounds like the hosts were right there with you, not down a funnel.

I agree the overall fidelity is better when speech programming is on FM, but there seems to be a tradeoff. Do you do talk in stereo so that commercials stand out, or drop the stereo carrier to improve the noise floor?

I didn't realize how much multipath really existed in Birmingham (home of iron ore rich hills, like Pittsburgh) until I heard talk radio being broadcast in stereo on WYDE. It's very noisy and you really notice it with speech. The other FM talkers, WERC and WJOX, broadcast in mono, although each's HD was in stereo. Even then, it was trading the long lasting bouts of noise and fade out under bridges on AM for the choppy, wavy, signal fluctuations of FM.

Or, if the HD is robust enough, you trade the noise of AM, the wavy FM signal for compression artefacts. To be honest, I prefer talk on HD more than anything because the noise floor is so low. When someone pauses their speech, it's actually quiet.
 


AM receivers are far worse than they were 50 years ago.


Finally something we can agree on: http://earmark.net/gesr/Current_Radio_Design.htm

AM radios have one cheap ceramic filter that is little better at selectivity than a capacitor. But that is OK, because of the cheap inadequate tuning mechanisms. If the bandwidth wasn't wide as a barn door, the user couldn't tune the radio. And they have to be wide for digital display radios because the tuning voltage steps aren't precise - you would have a radio that couldn't center on stations. Cheap Chinese JUNK!!!! The only reason they have limited frequency response are low pass filters in the audio section. Low pass filtered audio is NOT the same thing as narrowband. I wish I could buy inexpensive radios based on the All Japanese six reference design with 3 to 4 kHz IF bandwidth. They don't exist - anywhere. Even C Crane is using ceramic filters. Good ones, but no IF transformers. Or transformers used as impedance matching only. iBiquiity LIED. All modern AM radios are wideband IF. Period.

AM's aren't going to FM translators to get coverage. No translator is going to equal the building penetration of a 5 kW regional signal - the longer wavelenght penetrates better. Add to that the power levels of FM translators - if there is a buidling penetration issue, a piddling 100W FM signal isn't going to penetrate. I know - I've tried with an FM translator less than 5 miles away. Unless you have a window office, there was no signal. As for talk sounding better on FM, that is a joke to me. A good AM signal chain in the studio, plus a decent radio can have as low a noise floor as FM. It isn't hard to find an AM radio so cheap they don't even bother low passing the audio, talk and music sound GREAT on wideband AM! The problem is interference, and that is our do-nothing FCC that allowed it to happen.
 
Bruce, someday I'd like to read your opinion, preferably based on hands-on experience, with some of the DSP radios using the SiLabs chips. :) They have fairly good selectivity in the "IF" section, from what I've heard and personally observed. I have several Tecsuns - a PL-380, two PL-606s, a PL-398mp and a PL-398BT.

I don't like their build quality, though - they seem to have things break quite easily, but maybe I'm a bit rougher on my equipment than some. I've noticed that although they have fairly decent selectivity back in the IF zone - for example, I heard 594 JOAK from Tokyo, Japan, on the PL-380 with a Select-A-Tenna once in, I think, 2010, even though I'm less than 8 miles from San Diego's IBOC-spewing 600 KOGO - their front-end selectivity leaves a lot to be desired, usually in terms of desensing the radio, not splattering stations and images across the band. If I'm at my grandma's house about 1/3 mile from two stations (23 kW and 50 kW), the upper half of the band is un-DX'able, even on some locals. The radio turns its sensitivity way down when faced with very strong signals. Also when I get very close to stations, for example 1170 KCBQ near here, they will overload (meaning the audio on-channel sounds distorted) sooner than other portables I have.

Also, my Tecsuns have a lot of internally-generated heterodynes, birdies, etc across the band in various places. I've heard that a few newer radios like the newest Grundig Traveler III or the CC Skywave don't have that issue, and also my CC Pocket (which I suspect also has an SiLabs chip in it) is also immune to it, but it too still suffers from the strong-signal-area desensing. Also, I've heard that the built-in internal antennas are usually not as well designed as they could be, given the size of the cabinet. No, none of them will fit a 7.5" or 8" loopstick, although the 398 series (and 390 before it) does look like it almost would have room for a 7" stick, but it actually has a 4.5". Of the ones I have opened up, the PL-606 has the longest antenna relative to the size of its cabinet, taking up almost the entire width. Its antenna is longer than the one in the PL-380, even though the PL-380 is a wider radio.
 
Finally something we can agree on: http://earmark.net/gesr/Current_Radio_Design.htm

AM's aren't going to FM translators to get coverage. No translator is going to equal the building penetration of a 5 kW regional signal - the longer wavelenght penetrates better. Add to that the power levels of FM translators - if there is a buidling penetration issue, a piddling 100W FM signal isn't going to penetrate.

You have it backwards Bruce. As with a Faraday Cage, longer wavelength signals are more easily attenuated by structures. Ever driven through a tunnel while listening to an AM station verses an VHF FM station? Long wavelength signals don't penetrate the rebar or steel that make up the tunnel or overpass, let alone a "structure". Beside that part of your statement being completely wrong, your comment about building penetration (yet again) are overly simplistic. There are numerous considerations to take into account. Here is a few:

The calculated and measured field strength of the transmission source to the structure.
The frequency of the transmission source to the structure.
The construction type or materials used in the assumption.
The distance between the transmission source and the structure used in the assumption.
Propagation conditions for the particular frequency being tested.
For Medium Wave (AM stations), antenna pattern and the association to the structure.

I could go on with more, but suffice it to say that your regular comments about building penetration, continue to be completely wrong.
 
I disagree with the idea that AM radios are overall worse than they were 50 years ago. That's not necessarily true.

I'll agree that AM car radios were good back then.

But when it came to your average consumer AM radio used in the 1960's or 1970's -- like the typical tinny sounding clock radio of that time period (some with with just four or five transistors), or little ubiquitous transistor radios used during that era (the ones with the tinny sounding 2.5 inch speaker, no RF amp and maybe one stage of IF amplification), AM radios today are in many ways superior, because they at least have enough performance to where you can actually hear the station if you live anywhere that isn't in the main lobe of the station's pattern. This is probably because a lot of IF chips have a built in RF amp stage.

And none of the older clock, table, or handheld transistor radios I've heard sound as good as my Superadio, or even my boombox.

Modern AM car radios do seem to sound like crap. I don't know why that is.
 
I doubt anything like this would ever happen, but one thing I'm almost thinking - would be do a complete reorganization of the AM (and to a lesser extent FM) band, and on FM expand down into TV 5 and 6's space and move those elsewhere, no more cutting out UHF channels.

Ain't gonna happen. If Commissioner Pai hasn't mentioned it and if Docket # 13-249 doesn't mention it, it ain't gonna happen.

Andy Skotdal (who makes his real money in rental properties, not his AM stations) wrote a lengthy piece in RW on moving AM to the entire VHF band (not just Ch. 5 & 6).

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/newbay/rw_20150201/index.php#/2

But the FCC has already indicated in NPRM docket #12-118 that TV stations will be repacked into the entire VHF band. As it is there are already over 300 stations and CPs on ch. 5 & 6 alone. There's nowhere else for them to go.

This is a fantasy that needs to be dunked into the cold hard water of reality. Time to move on to something more realistic, like digital AM or putting AM stations on DTV sub-channels (which is being done in some markets like San Francisco).

Or my favorite idea; converting FM to all digital and creating more space by repacking the FM band.
 
Time to move on to something more realistic, like digital AM or putting AM stations on DTV sub-channels (which is being done in some markets like San Francisco).

Or my favorite idea; converting FM to all digital and creating more space by repacking the FM band.

How is that any more realistic?

After nearly 12 years on the market there are still only a miniscule number of of IBOC radios in consumer hands. When I bought my first IBOC radio in 2006 I assumed that eventually this tech would find it's way into average, mufti-purpose electronics that most people buy. Today, the consumer radio market is home theater receivers and autos. Even clock radios are passe'. Outside of a few car sets, I don't believe anyone make an IBOC tuner or receiver anymore. I hate to admit it, but the naysayers were right.

How many people are going to run their 55in TV just to hear radio?

Converting FM to all digital would kill the one viable free aural service that remains...let alone the roar from both broadcasters and the public.

The reality I see is that the bulk of AM facilities will wither away over the next 7-9 years (based on age demo's). They'll be a few survivors that serve niches and small communities and even those may find affordable FM sticks as the younger listeners move to IP or away from curated music altogether.

If I owned an AM, even a still profitable one, I have one eye fixed on the exit.

LCG
 
I disagree with the idea that AM radios are overall worse than they were 50 years ago. That's not necessarily true.

I'll agree that AM car radios were good back then.

But when it came to your average consumer AM radio used in the 1960's or 1970's -- like the typical tinny sounding clock radio of that time period (some with with just four or five transistors), or little ubiquitous transistor radios used during that era (the ones with the tinny sounding 2.5 inch speaker, no RF amp and maybe one stage of IF amplification), AM radios today are in many ways superior, because they at least have enough performance to where you can actually hear the station if you live anywhere that isn't in the main lobe of the station's pattern. This is probably because a lot of IF chips have a built in RF amp stage.

And none of the older clock, table, or handheld transistor radios I've heard sound as good as my Superadio, or even my boombox.

Modern AM car radios do seem to sound like crap. I don't know why that is.

Car radios are a different issue. Delco radios in the late 60's were amazing - both sensitivity and selectivity. Sensitivity came from a tuned RF stage, something not standard in portable radios, and of course a 60 inch whip antenna - still electrically short for AM, but Delco increased the electrical length with an internal inductor. Selectivity came from halving the IF frequency to 262.5 kHz. Add to that noise filtering that actually WORKED - and you had some really great radios. But you had to be careful - there was another version that lacked the sensitivity. My dad had one of those cars - I hated when we took the red car out places because reception was limited to local only no matter if the antenna was extended or not.

AM radios into the early 70's were based on a 6 transistor reference design from Japan. For those that aren't familiar with the concept of reference designs - they are created by a savvy person and suggested by the manufacturer of a part, or parts. You have complete freedom to use the design to manufacture your product. I don't know who presented the all Japanese six design, but my money is on the transformer people. You look inside 90% of the transistor radios of the time, you have the same four transformers: red oscillator, yellow, white, and black IF transformers. The part number of the transistors changes, but not the architecture. Ferrite loopstick antenna and tuning capacitor for stage one, no transistor. Red slug Oscillator / Mixer = converter stage (combined oscillator and mixer), second section of tuning capacitor, one transistor. Three IF transformers, two transistors. Pre-audio amp - one transistor. Push / pull class B output audio amp, output audio transformer - two transistors.

There were variations - germanium PNP transistors were replaced with silicon NPN eventually, add a seventh transistor and maybe an interstage audio transformer to make it louder in a bigger radio with bigger speaker. Of course the tuned RF versions with a green slug RF coil and another transistor. Those required a three section tuning capacitor. But the variations required some extra design skills on the part of the manufacturer - something that was not a priority. Companies tended to spend the time on cool looking boxes and the circuitry was copied over and over again. New transistor came out to replace one going obsolete? No problem, tinker around with the bias some and it worked. Probably the biggest change was that changeover from PNP germanium to NPN silicon, which probably had a lot more to do with getting rid of the thermistor that was required so the things would work outside on hot summer days than it did the desire for better performance.

4 transistor radios like the earliest TI Regencies were comparatively low volume and poor performance. You would only want one for the curioscity, display, or investment value - they won't be your primary radio for listening. There were countless "boys radios" with just one or two transistors - a lot of which were headphone only. That was to avoid some legal restriction of some sort. Tuned RF architecture and enough amplification to make them work - little better than a crystal radio.

Then came IC's - and the death of the 6 transistor reference design in the mid to late 70's. The IF cans held on for a while, I have some radios with IC's that still have three or four IF cans - but the other development - the ceramic filter spelled doom for the transformer manufacturers. They fought hard to keep their niche, and they still manage to hold onto the red converter can for AM, but it is a rare radio these days that has IF cans. Hence the one ceramic filter abominations. Take out the low pass filter on audio, you have an instant broadband radio that sounds GREAT with music! But it comes at a cost - selectivity. My daughter had one with +/- 40 kHz bandwidth. Not so bad for a 7 year old, except that a local 660 swamped out her favorite station on 620. She cried and - knowing my skill - demanded that I fix it. A decent ceramic filter and her station came through just fine.

AM performance is what you want from it. I've documented the problems with tuning voltage steps on digitally tuned radios - the AM IF bandwidth has to be wide or you miss stations completely. And cheap mechanical tuning mechanisms on analog radios - half inch diameter direct drive, flexible plastic linear scale with no mechancial lash preventing hysteresis. If those radios don't have wide bandwidth, you can't tune them at all.

As for Silabs - I have yet to see a radio actually using them for AM. Silabs does a decent job with the IC, I have their demo USB radio. But plugging it into a computer and you automatically have such a noisy RF environment I can't characterize it as good for anything but local. Their application note for AM specifies a single trace on a PC board wound around the perimeter, that is so small there is no chance of anything but local. Take the trace out and use a decent loop, who knows? But I don't know what the IF bandwidth would be. These are digitally tuned chips, so they need to get the tuning steps right on frequency to avoid missing stations, or make the IF bandwidth broad. I won't be a believer until CCrane or somebody makes a decent radio using one.
 
Converting FM to all digital would kill the one viable free aural service that remains...let alone the roar from both broadcasters and the public.

I don't follow you? How would converting the FM band to all digital make it any less free to the public beyond them buying a new radio--if need be? As it is, many already have HD Radio in their cars.

But consider this: every FM station takes up three or more channels. What a waste of spectrum. If FM were to follow what occurred in the DTV transition more stations could be packed into that spectrum, thereby opening a way for AM stations to truly migrate to FM and not just through translators with their limited coverage.
 
As for Silabs - I have yet to see a radio actually using them for AM. Silabs does a decent job with the IC, I have their demo USB radio. But plugging it into a computer and you automatically have such a noisy RF environment I can't characterize it as good for anything but local. Their application note for AM specifies a single trace on a PC board wound around the perimeter, that is so small there is no chance of anything but local. Take the trace out and use a decent loop, who knows? But I don't know what the IF bandwidth would be. These are digitally tuned chips, so they need to get the tuning steps right on frequency to avoid missing stations, or make the IF bandwidth broad. I won't be a believer until CCrane or somebody makes a decent radio using one.

Try a Sangean PR-D5 (also their updated version, the PR-D15). The newer PR-D5's have SiLabs chips in them. Most sensitive AM radio I've got. There are no missing stations or channels, and the bandwidth is anything but broad. The radio performs uniformly from the bottom of the band to the top of the band, at least as far as I can tell.

The PR-D5 is a great performer -- but the set 4 khz bandwidth cuts the highs, so on AM it's not as pleasant to listen to as a Superadio. If they had made the bandwidth adjustable like they do on the Tecsun SW radios, it would make it a little more pleasant to listen to.
 
But consider this: every FM station takes up three or more channels. What a waste of spectrum. If FM were to follow what occurred in the DTV transition more stations could be packed into that spectrum, thereby opening a way for AM stations to truly migrate to FM and not just through translators with their limited coverage.

There's two problems with this assessment. The first is that the current analog FM channels are wasteful ("takes up three or more channels"). The wide bandwidth of an FM broadcast is more than just the audio we hear. There's the stereo pilot, the RDS data carrier and two SCAs. As I've learned over the years, some stations make money off those SCAs so I'm sure some broadcasters would balk at narrowing the FM channel spec, which would eliminate some or all of those services.

The second is that converting to digital would free up spectrum. It would not, because as I understand it, the digital only version of the HD broadcast is still designed to fit in the same 100 kHz space of an analog station, which means that unless there's some major change in radio design, the current spacing and separation rules will need to be kept in place.

The truth of the matter is the FCC could have done almost the exact the same spectrum repacking with analog stations as they did with the digital transition, if they wanted. The additional channels gained on the TV side are not real, they're subchannels. So unless your local TV station is going to be willing to lease out an equal amount of bits to a competitor, it's not really adding competition even if digital did add channels. And I should note that, like HD, when you add subchannels, you take away quality from the main channel. Your local ABC or CBS isn't going to be keen on giving up half its data bitrate to a competing network like Fox or NBC unless they also run it themselves, which does not really broaden the competitive market.

HD radio is doing the same thing right now. Sure, I may have an extra three "stations" on my dial that I didn't have before, but they're not really competitors because they're owned by the same company.
 
I don't follow you? How would converting the FM band to all digital make it any less free to the public beyond them buying a new radio--if need be? As it is, many already have HD Radio in their cars.

Start with the fact that there are over 200,000,000 vehicles in the US. Those made in the last decade or so have the radio integrated into the vehicle's electronic system and are not easily changeable. So going to digital on FM would leave most of the population without radio in their car. Most would opt for some form of streaming of web stations to a vacant FM channel on their existing radio, thus killing OTA broadcast radio completely.

Bad solution.

Further, we do not need more stations on the dial. The ones that already exist are already pressed by changes in the advertising market such as new media and changes in the economy due to the recession that have reduced available revenue. Add in the fact that since Docket 80-90 the number of FMs has doubled while ad revenue has been flat or declining and you have a situation where additional stations would kill the existing ones.
 


Further, we do not need more stations on the dial. The ones that already exist are already pressed by changes in the advertising market such as new media and changes in the economy due to the recession that have reduced available revenue. Add in the fact that since Docket 80-90 the number of FMs has doubled while ad revenue has been flat or declining and you have a situation where additional stations would kill the existing ones.

Then by your reasoning, expanding the FM band by taking channels 5 & 6 would likewise be needless. After all, "we do not need more stations on the dial." For that matter, giving AM stations FM translators would also be needless, because "we do not need more stations on the dial."
 
These are just my thoughts as someone who has been in the radio/TV business for almost fifty years.

There isn't enough Ad revenue to support the existing stations unless the stations are grouped together in the Ad buy.
The Big corporate clusters are getting lots of Ad money. If they attempted to sell spots on a per-station basis, the number of successful, profitable stations would dwindle.

This is exactly what is causing the failure of "mom and pop-owned" radio stations.
They might have a great product and lots of listeners but the advertiser can spend only a little more money and reach more listeners if their spots are spread across eight or ten stations in a cluster.

The situation will not improve.
 
Then by your reasoning, expanding the FM band by taking channels 5 & 6 would likewise be needless. After all, "we do not need more stations on the dial." For that matter, giving AM stations FM translators would also be needless, because "we do not need more stations on the dial."

Expanding the FM dial would be a worthless exercise as people would have to buy new radios to get those stations.

There is hardly any sales of stand-alone, discreet radios.

Car radios are changed when a new car is purchased. The average age of US cars is approaching 11 years, so it would take a decade just to get the new band in half of all cars.

Consumers want their "radio" (and, increasingly, their TV, music, email, texting, voice, calendar, alarm clock, etc) on a single device and that is the smartphone or tablet.

It would be better to spend the money on new media content than on a band that no consumer radio today can receive. By the time people started getting receivers, most listening will have moved to new media platforms.

Giving AM stations translators is an immediate solution (new bands or conversion to all-digital is not), requiring no new hardware. The ideal situation would be to emulate what Mexico is doing which is to allow AMs to move to FM and then turn in the AM license; Mexico decreed that the AM band was no longer viable economically.
 



Giving AM stations translators is an immediate solution (new bands or conversion to all-digital is not), requiring no new hardware. The ideal situation would be to emulate what Mexico is doing which is to allow AMs to move to FM and then turn in the AM license; Mexico decreed that the AM band was no longer viable economically.

Yes, but 'we don't need anymore stations on the FM band.' Plus, there is no more room on FM to give AM licensees a channel to migrate to given the current schema of interference protection with analog FM broadcasting. The Mexican solution wouldn't work here. The AM band would have to remain and be improved on through new technology.
 
So, it sounds like the solution for AM is to keep the status quo, and AM stations just need to make sure their audience knows about their webstream, because that sounds like the place where radio is headed... eventually... So long as they can work out the problem with the RIAA that TheBigA refers to on other threads.
 
Yes, but 'we don't need anymore stations on the FM band.' Plus, there is no more room on FM to give AM licensees a channel to migrate to given the current schema of interference protection with analog FM broadcasting. The Mexican solution wouldn't work here. The AM band would have to remain and be improved on through new technology.

From the perspective of sales, am AM adding a translator is not creating any more stations in a market as the translator must simulcast the AM. It does, however, increase the competitiveness of the AM to the point that AMs that can not produce a profit become viable.

GIven AM's problem of having a night skywave, there does not seem to be a viable and affordable solution now. And if one is not found in the next very few years, there is not going to be any benefit in finding one.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom