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Spoiled by FM HD

With respect Chuck, I submit that you and I are members of the "general public". I also submit that NPR is one of the largest of all radio networks, with audience figures in the twenty million range. That ain't exactly small time.

Public stations say on the air because enough people care about quality to SEND THEM MONEY! Just because our tasts may be a little more refined than most people (hell, I'll bet you actually read...FOR FUN! Something public radio listeners do that most people don't!), don't sell US short. We are as large as any audience for any radio network, and our numbers would be quite satisfactory to many bigtime tv shows!
 
Mike Walker said:
The "niche" for HD radio is sure as hell bigger than, say, SACD or DVD Audio already (I don't know ANYBODY who's heard of these formats other than audiophiles...after SEVEN YEARS!)

Acura has sold about a quarter-million vehicles with DVD-Audio players over the past three years. Want to try that again?
 
Mike said:
Supercaster I actually don't worry too much about format duplication or the lack of creativity on HD2 streams, and don't really give a flip about the typical consumer. I'm no longer a programmer, so I don't have to worry about what listeners want. Only about what I want.
If you are so happy, are getting what you want, and do not care about anyone else, then why are you constantly arguing with the rest of us?
You keep posting about your radio. I do not think anyone here cares about your radio. As you have said, you don't care about anyone else.
No one ever said anything about your HD Radio. Do anything you want with it.
Your radio has little or nothing to do with the discussions of HD radio, consumers, broadcasters, and other listeners we have been posting on this board.
 
Mike Walker said:
With respect Chuck, I submit that you and I are members of the "general public". I also submit that NPR is one of the largest of all radio networks, with audience figures in the twenty million range. That ain't exactly small time.

Public stations say on the air because enough people care about quality to SEND THEM MONEY! Just because our tasts may be a little more refined than most people (hell, I'll bet you actually read...FOR FUN! Something public radio listeners do that most people don't!), don't sell US short. We are as large as any audience for any radio network, and our numbers would be quite satisfactory to many bigtime tv shows!

Since I do read for fun, I agree with your basic premise.... But most people don't read period. 20 million sounds like a lot, but out of 300 million Americans some would consider it to be fairly insignificant.

I have several friends who are or were involved in Public Radio, so I have some sympathy for the cause. I've even been known to send money to public stations and my little radio station has actually loaned our spare transmitter to a local Public station when they were having problems with their big rig. It kept them on the air. I do have a lot of sympathy and interest in Public Radio.

As it works out, FMExtra would have better served their need for additional channels. It is cheaper to implement, and does not cause any new interference. Most public stations have very slim budgets. If it were not for grants from NPR/CPB, most could not have afforded the upgrade. Even with the grants, transmitting in HD is still a minority position in Public Radio-land and it may remain that way.

For $8500 they could be on the air with alternate streams in FMextra. The minimum ticket for HD was nearly $100,000, but usually it ended up costing a lot more. I think that money could have been better spent on programming and talent. Most pub-casters are understaffed and overworked. They’re having enough trouble getting their new Content Depot stuff to work, without adding the financial burden of HD.

In some areas, HD has caused problems for Pubcasters by splattering onto their next-door neighbors. As you know, the left side of the dial has closer channel spacing and adjacent channel interference can be an issue, especially in heavily populated areas. Further, a lot of Public stations are relatively low power. I know of one North of San Francisco that is only 100 watts. Still, it has respectable audiences. Do you think HD will help them? Maybe it will in their parking lot.

I have no argument about the concept of digital radio and multiple programming streams. It sounds good on paper, and greater minds than mine can think of creative things to do with it. My problem is with the method chosen to deliver this new promise. It can be done a lot better, in a manner that everyone benefits. Solutions that help only large broadcasters and ignore the needs and rights of small broadcasters (and the public in general) are not something I think we should be enthusiastic about.

Digital radio, in its basic form is a good thing. The way it is currently being implemented is the problem. We know we can do better.
 
I'm actually agnostic on FM digital. If FMExtra becomes standardized, or even widely available, I'll buy that too. The hell of it is, FM HD and FMExtra are not mutually exclusive. The best scenario might well be BOTH! Let all flowers bloom (especially if your station isn't broadcasting analog SCA). I'll gladly buy a new double-duty radio. If it can receive DRM on AM rather than, or in addition to AM HD (which is probably doomed), then KEWL!

As for DVD Audio and SACD...I don't give a flying flip how many players there may be. It's to the point where it costs practically nothing to include the player capability. Dude...HOW MANY RECORDINGS HAVE BEEN SOLD TOTAL, in both SACD and DVD AUDIO OVER THE LAST SEVEN YEARS? Even a couple of hundred thousand? Talk about technology that nobody cares about! I guarantee that after less than a year of real products being on the market, many more people are aware of HD Radio than DVD Audio and SACD after SEVEN YEARS! Sony, the company that invented the SACD format, has quit releasing new recordings! They've all but abandoned it. And SACD is the "successful" format...the one with the greatest number of recordings sold.

Both formats are novelty items for audiophiles. Nothing like that. I love my Mobile Fidelity recordings. In fact I've got audiophile lps from 30 years ago (direct to disc, half-speed mastered, all the super-fun formats) that are like new. And even in those days when EVERY HOME IN THE WORLD had a phonograph, these were novelty items with very small production runs.

As for endlessly talking about MY RADIO, well duh. I am relating MY EXPERIENCES, and MY OPINIONS. As is everyone else. Only I am honest about it. If my needs are being satisfied by a technology, and that technology is sufficiently available and reliable, then no...unless I own stock in the company, I don't give a flip whether you like it or not. That doesn't mean I don't "care about anyone else". I give to my favorite charities, support causes and candidates I believe in, and call my mom every day. I care deeply about other people. But I don't care, and never will about WHAT YOU LISTEN TO. Do you really care what I listen to? I'd be shocked if you do! Now have a nice weekend, dammit! Have two, they're small! ;)
 
Mike Walker said:
I'm actually agnostic on FM digital. If FMExtra becomes standardized, or even widely available, I'll buy that too. The hell of it is, FM HD and FMExtra are not mutually exclusive. The best scenario might well be BOTH! Let all flowers bloom (especially if your station isn't broadcasting analog SCA).

I've been saying that for a long time. It seems that nobody is listening at Ibiquity.
 
Mike Walker said:
I'm actually agnostic on FM digital. If FMExtra becomes standardized, or even widely available, I'll buy that too. The hell of it is, FM HD and FMExtra are not mutually exclusive. The best scenario might well be BOTH! Let all flowers bloom (especially if your station isn't broadcasting analog SCA). I'll gladly buy a new double-duty radio. If it can receive DRM on AM rather than, or in addition to AM HD (which is probably doomed), then KEWL!

Mike,
I'm also for any digital system that would work. However, I heard that FMextra does not allow for the conversion to an all-digital mode. Is that true? Perhaps a chip could be manufactured that would use FMextra for the hybrid mode and the Ibiquity system for the all-digital mode.
 
dbdigital said:
Like buying a television. You just about can't buy a CRT television now.

And yet CRT televisions are cheaper to make and in some if not many cases can well do better pictures than LCD and plasma screens. Hmm.

Why do I keep reading these threads? Guess I'm a sucker for punishment? And yet I keep reading and occasionaly replaying. :p

We who want higher quality, more robust audio from our speakers are in the minority. Period.

You know what HD, FMeXtra and DRM are? They are the SACD and DVD-A of the broadcast world.

Not technically, unfortunetly, but in spirit. It's a whole new system devised to bring improved performance, hindered by cost, availablity and desire. HD on AM has additional issues, which are moot.

Even if every commercial station took the care to present such wonderful audio as Mike's not-local public station, it still wouldn't amount to a hill o' beans -- most people are, dare I presume, too dumb to care?

What matters is that many of us here are fans of unpopular (now, or for-now!) technology: Mike likes his HD FM, I love my minidisc recorders, WLW seems to love his Google Trends (!) and I'm sure there's a few who are passionate about AM stereo... Wait, where am I going with this?

That train of thought got derailed. Sorry. I'll shut my hole now.
 
Mike Walker said:
HOW MANY RECORDINGS HAVE BEEN SOLD TOTAL, in both SACD and DVD AUDIO OVER THE LAST SEVEN YEARS? Even a couple of hundred thousand? Talk about technology that nobody cares about!

I guess the nearly one million copies of the Beatles' "Love" DVD-A don't count...dude.
 
From len14043:

Mike,
I'm also for any digital system that would work. However, I heard that FMextra does not allow for the conversion to an all-digital mode. Is that true? Perhaps a chip could be manufactured that would use FMextra for the hybrid mode and the Ibiquity system for the all-digital mode.

Not true.
Of course FMeXtra offers a transition to full digital FM. As easy as 1, 2, 3!
1-First add FMeXtra digital subcarriers to the stereo FM, signal.
2-Eventually drop the stereo subcarriers when more streams or higher quality digital is advantageous.
3-Completely drop the analog main mono channel audio and add more digital bandwidth or streams when 100% digital is desired.
As you see, all digital on FM, with FMeXtra is no problem at all, and the coverage is much better then HD (full power coverage, at least equal to current analog FM) without trespassing all over your neighbor's stations.
No problematic, complex, expensive, HD adjacent channel iBuzz is needed, at all.

Since iBiquity HD radio uses your neighbor's adjacent channels for digital it will never be able to be full power, all digital, at 100 or 50KW on FM. It would jam your neighbors stations and scramble their digital bits.

In fact, the truth is just the opposite of what you claim. It is the iBiquty/HD radio system that will never be capable of full power digital broadcasting, unless they eliminate or jam other neighboring stations.

As for Mike's SACD, DVD audio argument, all he has proven is that consumers are satisfied with analog FM, audio CD's, and iPod/MP3 players. Slight improvements in audio quality, don't sell. Right Mike?
So much for the myth of iBiquity/HD radio sweeping the nation, even after billions more spent on their 19th (nervous breakdown) "HD roll out".
 
I submit that SACD and DVD Audio ARE NOT IMPROVEMENTS in double-blind testing, because their greatest areas of "improvement" are at levels below the noise threshold of almost any room, and at frequencies beyond the limit of human hearing. Adult men are mostly deaf above 15khz, and almost nobody (other than your dog) hears beyond 20khz. So increasing the sample rate to 96khz, or 192khz, or whatever had the effect ONLY of extending frequency response to a range that only bats can hear.

I am convinced that the real reason for these formats is the difficulty of "ripping" them to mp3 or other formats. Record companies sold us "greater resolution", when what they really wanted to get into our homes and systems was better copy protection...taking away fair-use rights.

I'm all for BETTER SOUND. But 16 bit linear PCM digital audio is far better than ANY speaker system, or headphone. THIS IS WHERE REAL IMPROVEMENT WILL COME FROM! Once frequency response spans the audio band with nearly perfect flatness, and distortion is at the level of a good amplifier, THE TRANSDUCERS ARE THE "WEAK LINK". An argument can be made for the improvement from surround sound, but I'm way past the gimmicks of instruments BEHIND ME. STOOPID! I went through that with quadraphonics more than three decads ago. I'm a grownup now!

I DO BELIEVE that the realistic reproduction of spatial cues is an area open to REAL improvement. But as a headphone listener primarily, I'd far rather see recordings released binaurally. We have exactly TWO ears. To ACCURATELY (as opposed to "impressively") capture the world around us, the correct method is to record with two microphones spaced at the same distance as our ears (with a binaural "head"), and reproduce through headphones. THAT CAPTURES WHAT WE HEAR! Yeah surround through speakers can place things in front, or behind you. But what about above? Below? And surround through speakers uses almost exclusively AMPLITUDE cues. In the real world our ears are sensitive to both amplitude (volume) and phase (timing) cues. A guy sitting to your left isn't just louder in your left ear when he talks. His voice reaches your left ear before it reaches your right. Traditional surround sound (or stereo) would capture his voice with one microphone, and "pan" it to the left (so it only came from the left speaker).

Binaural would pick up his voice with TWO microphones...louder in the left than the right, but also EARLIER in the left than the right. Through headphones, you'd hear a much more realistic representation of his voice.

Heard the story about the guy who was looking for his car keys in the kitchen. His wife asked him "is this where you saw them last?" "Well no", he answered. "I think I lost them in the garage, but the light's better in here". I'm very much FOR improvements in reproduced sound. I'm merely suggesting that we're looking in the wrong place ;)
 
It's funny. I was about to say in all seriousness that practically no one listens with headphones anymore, but then I realized that as long as some of us do, it's a valid debate point.

Some of us can hear beyond 15 kHz and certainly many of us aren't of the age yet where our hearing falls off. What matters with the "higher definition" audio formats like SACD and DVD-A are that they primary add surround which people these days seem to enjoy already with their movies. And all that extra sampling room allows more nuances to go untouched by the encoding. 44.1 kHz 16-bit PCM audio is limited; many non-audiophiles will even acknowledge this.

Having said that, so far my experiences with SACD have been underwhelming. You clearly have a problem with engineers and the marketing department working together when their displays have all used substandard speakers at the few retailers who actually showcased the product.

And how many working HD displays are there again? ;)

FWIW - I like binaural recordings too, I just wish they were easy to find. All I've ever heard are demo files downloaded off the internet.
 
SUPERCASTER said:
Not true.
Of course FMeXtra offers a transition to full digital FM. As easy as 1, 2, 3!
1-First add FMeXtra digital subcarriers to the stereo FM, signal.
2-Eventually drop the stereo subcarriers when more streams or higher quality digital is advantageous.
3-Completely drop the analog main mono channel audio and add more digital bandwidth or streams when 100% digital is desired.
As you see, all digital on FM, with FMeXtra is no problem at all, and the coverage is much better then HD (full power coverage, at least equal to current analog FM) without trespassing all over your neighbor's stations.
No problematic, complex, expensive, HD adjacent channel iBuzz is needed, at all.

I am curious as to how FMeXtra works. If you are aware of a link that describes the technical aspects, please post it.
 
Zach points out that "16 bit 44.1khz audio is limited". Of course it is, and the limits are easy to demonstrate. Nothing can be recorded above half the sample rate (actually a little less than half the sample rate...a little beyond 20khz). And in theory nothing can be recorded below the 16 bit limit of 96db (6db of dynamic range per bits 16(bits)x6(db)=96).

Actually there's a way around that last one. "Dither" random noise at just above the -96db level, which keeps the dac from ever "switching off" (as it would with audio below -96db otherwise) allows audio to be recorded below the "theoretical limit" of -96db. Another technique called "noise shaping" takes sampling noise (generated in any digital format) and moves it from the midrange where the ear is most sensitive, above the audio range (above 20khz). Taken together, these techniques allow what is ostensibly a 16 bit format to record resolution behond the "16th bit".

I know...another long winded lecture from Walker. My point is that yes, 16 bit 44.1khz is "limited". But so is human hearing. 16 bit 44.1khz was chosen because it's a very close match to the limitations of our hearing. -96db is not only quieter than the quietest of our listening rooms, it's quieter than any real recording studio. 20khz response is beyond the hearing range of almost everyone. And even if you can hear a discreet tone at 20khz, the absence of frequencies above this point means little, because music isn't a "discreet tone". It's a complex waveform composed of many, harmonically related frequencies. Real musical "notes" (the fundamental tones) occur almost entirely below 2khz. What's above 2khz is harmonically related "overtones". Well the ear is most sensitive in the 500-2khz range, because that's where voices "live". Surprise...God tuned our hearing to be most sensitive to the sound of our own voices. Makes sense!

Well our ears aren't laboratory instruments. Unlike test gear, they are quite incapable of hearing all components of a complex waveform simultaneously. Play a tone at 1khz. Now play a tone at 800khz that's 15db quieter. Now play the 1khz tone at full volume again. Then play both tones together. IT WILL SOUND THE SAME WHETHER THE 800hz tone is present or not, because your ear can't hear a soft tone of lower volume in the presence of a loud one of similar frequency. This is why analog noise reduction systems like dolby seem to provide constant noise reduction, when in fact no noise reduction takes place during loud passages. It isn't necessary...the music itself masks the noise, so noise reduction isn't necessary. That's one of the two ways that lossy compression techniques such as aac+ in HD Radio, mp3, dolby digital, wma, etc. work. They do two things. One...they allow noise to rise and fall when loud sounds are there to mask them. If that's not sufficient (to allow efficient coding of the audio with the available bits), they allow soft tones to be ignored in the presence of similarly pitched loud ones. This explains the weird "comb filter" effect on low bitrate digital audio, such as 20kbps web streams.

Well ALL loud audio masks ALL quiet audio to some degree. A spectrum analyzer shows that the vast majority of musical energy is below 2khz. Loud sound in the midrange (and bass) makes it impossible for even those of us blessed with the most golden of ears to tell whether anything is present above 20khz or not. This can be demonstrated with a/b/x comparison, and has been repeatedly.

There's another really bad thing about extending high frequency response too high. While there may not be any musical benefit, there could be real problems...such as high frequency noise from computer monitors (what studio doesn't have a bunch of those?), lighting, and all kinds of electrical and electronic doo-dads. There IS audio "up there". Just ask your dog. These "sounds" may be beyond the range of typical human hearing, but they can EASILY "beat with" sound IN the audio band (such as musical instruments and voices) to produce distortion components that are below 20khz...IN THE AUDIO BAND. Not only that, but recording such "sounds" may make a recording more "accurate" (after all they were present in the studio), but it also robs the recording of the very resolution that was gained by adding the extra bits and or increased sample rate. Bits are being wasted recording things YOU CAN'T HEAR, and that aren't even a parf of the recording. All good arguments that the "purist" approach is to NOT extend frequency response much beyond 20khz! Something to think about ;)
 
Len14043 said:
SUPERCASTER said:
Not true.
Of course FMeXtra offers a transition to full digital FM. As easy as 1, 2, 3!
1-First add FMeXtra digital subcarriers to the stereo FM, signal.
2-Eventually drop the stereo subcarriers when more streams or higher quality digital is advantageous.
3-Completely drop the analog main mono channel audio and add more digital bandwidth or streams when 100% digital is desired.
As you see, all digital on FM, with FMeXtra is no problem at all, and the coverage is much better then HD (full power coverage, at least equal to current analog FM) without trespassing all over your neighbor's stations.
No problematic, complex, expensive, HD adjacent channel iBuzz is needed, at all.

I am curious as to how FMeXtra works. If you are aware of a link that describes the technical aspects, please post it.

Contrary to several assertions (and some long, involved, convoluted, fantasy stories) concocted by HD promoters, I am a neutral observer, and have no affiliation, ownership, or bias toward FMeXtra, HD Radio, Cam-D or any particular system. The listeners and consumers will decide in the end. In the meantime the broadcasting interests and the HD cartel, and promoters insist on promoting incompatible, problematic, proprietary HD systems that many of them have a financial interest in hypeing beyond the max. The adoption of a seriously flawed HD broadcasting standard might give a quick, short term boost, but in the long run, do more harm then good for everyone.

A lot has happened since the HD debate started, and I do not maintain a database of FMeXtra articles.
But here is a link to a partial answer to your question:
http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,62340.msg439862.html#msg439862
 
Mike Walker said:
Actually there's a way around that last one. "Dither" random noise at just above the -96db level, which keeps the dac from ever "switching off" (as it would with audio below -96db otherwise) allows audio to be recorded below the "theoretical limit" of -96db. Another technique called "noise shaping" takes sampling noise (generated in any digital format) and moves it from the midrange where the ear is most sensitive, above the audio range (above 20khz). Taken together, these techniques allow what is ostensibly a 16 bit format to record resolution behond the "16th bit".

Long winded or not, it was informative and interesting. At least to me. :)

The above technique -- isn't this what is employed on so-called "HDCD" recordings?
 
Yes...only in HDCD the 16th bit is taken up by the "extra information" below the 16th bit, which can only be recovered properly by an HDCD player. There's a surprising number of them, however. Both of my portable dvd players decode HDCD, and they're both cheapies, too. Strangely there have been two types of players that seem to decode HDCD...expensive audiophile models, and cheap dvd players. Weird!
 
Windows Media Player, starting with version 8 or 9, decodes HDCD as well. I believe Microsoft bought the rights to the technology or something like that. My top end minidisc home deck does true 20 and 24 bit recording from analog or optical inputs in addition to 16... I thought I could tell a difference when copying an LP to MD between 16 & 24 bit, but it wasn't enough to be really worthwhile. Kinda like the upgrade between FM and HD FM? ::)
 
Yes Microsoft does now own HDCD (and I'm sure they're making millions on that...KIDDING)

Now I'm going to say something that'll get me yelled at. Like I care. OF COURSE YOU DON'T HEAR A DIFFERENCE when copying lps at 16 bit vs 24 bit. You're copying a FAR LOWER RESOLUTION MEDIUM (lp...with at best about 60db dynamic range) to a medium with 96db dynamic range (16 bit), or 144db (24 bit) (6db per bit). Yes lps go beyond 20khz. At low modulation levels, and preferably closer to the edge than the label. Big whoop!
 
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