STATION'S I CAN NO LONGER HEAR THANKS TO HD "TECHNOLOGY".

[KB1OKL]

well here in ma i cant get wfan during the day because of 650 a local station here because of iboc, but wcbs am comes in fine especially on rainy days.

I'm from MA too, ever try listening to WSM 650 at night? Buzzz!!! Whooosh!!!!! WFAN's IBOC kills it unless you've got a highly directional antenna which can tune it down to nothing and skywave's angle changes all the time so it's pretty much a futile gesture, you'll be continually adjusting the antenna. Oh jeez I'm probably banned now that I gave away the fact that I'm a DXer besides being a listener. I wonder if DXers and listeners can coexist peacefully in the same body?

 

[fybush]

Oh jeez I'm probably banned now that I gave away the fact that I'm a DXer besides being a listener. I wonder if DXers and listeners can coexist peacefully in the same body?

Of course they can. I'm a DXer, and a listener, and a broadcaster - at a station that's making productive and successful use of FM HD multicasting, no less. And yet, I'm still on good speaking terms with Bob Savage...he's even bought me lunch a few times

The key here is in Bob's excellent point, which has gone largely ignored since he made it:

Contrary to the beliefs of certain (far from all) DXers, I don't think you'll find many broadcasters out there who actually believe you're "not supposed to be" listening to out-of-market signals like WSM. But the entire history of FCC regulation, going back as far as the establishment of the agency 75 years ago, has favored increased local service at the expense of protection of out-of-market reception.

So what Bob Savage is very wisely saying - and I agree with him wholeheartedly on this - is that the FCC is not going to be swayed, now or ever, by the argument that a listener in central Massachusetts, outside WSM's protected nighttime contour, is getting interference to that signal. (Remember, it's possible under current FCC AM spacing rules to put a station on the air right in Millbury on 650, which would wipe out your reception of WSM far more than WFAN's IBOC does.)

Bob's point is that the real issue with AM IBOC, from a regulatory standpoint, is the damage it does, via skywave from out-of-market, to in-market reception of in-market signals. We know that's a real-world issue from situations like WJR/WABC.

Unfortunately for Bob and for WYSL, he appears to have ended up with about the worst possible such situation in the country: WYSL and its local market sit right in some of the strongest skywave WBZ delivers most nights. Other stations in similar positions have escaped similar damage because their adjacent-channel neighbors aren't running IBOC, so the limited penetration of AM IBOC has actually slightly hurt Bob's cause, ironically, by reducing the number of other stations that could file similar complaints. Unlike some of the other stations affected (WJR/WABC being the best such example), the interference isn't coming from a co-owned station, so the issue can't be resolved at the corporate level. And being a non-corporate-owned standalone, WYSL lacks the deep pockets and connections that help grease the DC wheels for the big broadcasters.

But, again, I agree with Bob that trying to make the "DXer" argument only hurts the very real, very legitimate case he's trying to make. I'm not a DX listener to WYSL. I'm very much in its local market, and I know, from when Bob built the night operation a decade or so ago, that he was delivering a usable signal to me when he signed on nights at 1040 in the pre-IBOC era, a signal that is no longer usable...and that he made a very substantial investment in building a directional array premised on the AM allocations situation as it existed then.

It may be that the public interest, convenience and necessity is better served by today's arrangement than by the situation that existed in the mid-90s...but there was never a proper acknowledgment that the AM allocations and interference rules were being effectively rewritten by the introduction of IBOC, as there was in earlier instances when the AM allocations landscape was changed.

(The proceedings that eventually allowed WYSL to land on 1040 in the first place, breaking down the interference protection WHO once enjoyed here, dragged on for literally decades before being resolved, for instance.)

 

[Savage]

I TRADED you lunch. Not "bought." It's different....

You're right, Scottso, and one of my principal beefs with HD Radio is how apparently NO thought was given to situations such as WYSL-WBZ and other nighttime adjacents. Hence my frequent condemnation of the blank denial HD perpetrators display over AM skywave problems. And, as I have endlessly reminded people, the "DXer" argument is a straw-man. It's the local interference.

The fair and reasonable thing would be for one of two things to occur: (a) seriously affected facilities such as WYSL can, with a reasonable "threshold" showing, be assigned FM simulcast translators at no regulatory cost to compensate existing AM operators for lost night coverage (after all the dimbulbs at the Commission still expect their spectrum-fee payments every September - for coverage which no longer exists); (b) the FCC could actually enforce the interference-mitigation measures set forth in the 2002 First Report and Order. That provided for a complaint procedure and an automatic turn-down or -off of HD by the interfering station. The Commission has never employed this safety-valve in even a single instance - despite, according to reports, having received hundreds of adjacent-channel complaints.

 

[fybush]

I TRADED you lunch. Not "bought." It's different....

Right - same way I traded you a Tower Site Calendar. Got it! ;D

You're right, Scottso, and one of my principal beefs with HD Radio is how apparently NO thought was given to situations such as WYSL-WBZ and other nighttime adjacents. Hence my frequent condemnation of the blank denial HD perpetrators display over AM skywave problems. And, as I have endlessly reminded people, the "DXer" argument is a straw-man. It's the local interference.

The fair and reasonable thing would be for one of two things to occur: (a) seriously affected facilities such as WYSL can, with a reasonable "threshold" showing, be assigned FM simulcast translators at no regulatory cost to compensate existing AM operators for lost night coverage (after all the dimbulbs at the Commission still expect their spectrum-fee payments every September - for coverage which no longer exists); (b) the FCC could actually enforce the interference-mitigation measures set forth in the 2002 First Report and Order. That provided for a complaint procedure and an automatic turn-down or -off of HD by the interfering station. The Commission has never employed this safety-valve in even a single instance - despite, according to reports, having received hundreds of adjacent-channel complaints.

Which brings me back to the rather ironic problem at hand - because so many AM operators chose fairly early on not to buy into IBOC, or have continued to shut it off at sunset, or stopped using the equipment they bought, it seems to me that the damage has been far less than it could have been. With only a hundred or so class A or B AM signals running IBOC at night, interference complaints are inevitably scattered and relatively easy for the Commission to ignore, as we've seen. If a couple of thousand AMs had fired up early on, I don't think Bob would be the lone voice in the wilderness that he's become.

 

[Savage]

According to Barry McLarnon's site, only about 80 AM stations are using IBOC at night - and when you burrow into the list, about half of them are graveyarders on local channels. With only 45 high-power general coverage AMs on at night, of course the interference complaints are going to be few and far between.

This situation is also massaged by co-owned stations (with the notable exception of exceptionally stupid CBS) voluntarily turning off selected stations to protect "the more valuable property," such as the case of WRVA turning off IBOC to protect the three multi-tower monster arrays on 1130 in Detroit, Milwaukee and Minneapolis, or Citadel's killing HD at night on WABC, WJR and WSB.

Two years on it's still forehead-smackingly dumb how operators are willing to tolerate the nighttime interference. If I didn't know better, it's almost like they WANT to kill what's left of their powerful AMs.

And maybe I DON'T know any better about that than "they" do....in any event I appreciate the sentiments. And the gentlemanly discourse which proves that reasonable minds can differ over the merits of HD Radio and maintain a mutually respectful yet still spirited debate.

 

[BRNout]

Bob, you're so right about CBS and their short-sighted attitude about nighttime IBOC! I know that they're supposedly in the tank with Ibiquity, which probably explains the poor engineering principles being used. Look at what they're doing at night.

In the eastern half of the US, they have 50 kw signals with IBOC sidebands on: 660 WFAN, 670 WSCR, 780 WBBM, 830 WCCO (the supposedly "good neighbor"!), 880 WCBS, 950 WWJ, 1010 WINS, 1020 KDKA, 1030 WBZ, 1060 KYW, 1080 WTIC, 1120 KMOX, and 1210 WPHT.

Now, toss in the Clear Channel and other 50 kw stations with nighttime IBOC operation at 820, 840, 1000, 1050, 1040, 1090 and 1110 and you have a band full of interference from just a few big signals. Figure that, for most radios, the sidebands will interfere with the neighboring channels (and two out when the signal is very strong) then do the math. There are a lot of local, lower powered, signals between 650 and 1220 that can be blotted out thanks to skywave from the above.

But at least CC, Citadel and most of the others selectively shut off certain stations' IBOC at night (Citadel doesn't just shut it off on 750, 760 and 770 - but WLS 890 and others as well). CBS basically runs it so that WINS, KDKA and WBZ blot each other out in some areas, as do WFAN and WSCR and KYW and WTIC.

In a word: dumb.

 

[audioguy]

Yes indeedy, CBS radio is without a doubt the major polluter of the AM dial in the midwest. I have totally lost respect for CBS radio engineering and management for what they are doing. Of course, they think they are right, so come hell or high water, they are going to continue broadcasting that crap until the next millennium, or until they get an order from the Commission telling them to turn it off (which is not likely, I'm afraid).

What's amazing to me is that not only do they garbage up the band for their neighbors, but they are ruining the enjoyment of their own station. You just can't get away from that irritating hiss and grunge! And, BTW, the problem is NOT limited to wideband receivers-- I hear the same thing on "walkman" and car radios with narrow IF filters.

When my neighbors ask me why WBBM sounds so bad, I tell them: just give WGN a try for your traffic reports-- and I think many of them have become regular listeners.

 

[Link]

In my opinion (as a hobbyist), the reduced coverage the original poster reported for 1360 is from 680 X 2. I think it is actually 670's iboc adjacent that is doing it. When 670 turns off the hash generator for sporting events it seems like this issue goes away.

 

[stormy01]

In my opinion (as a hobbyist), the reduced coverage the original poster reported for 1360 is from 680 X 2. I think it is actually 670's iboc adjacent that is doing it. When 670 turns off the hash generator for sporting events it seems like this issue goes away.

Someone in Chicago that is, the city proper, that is getting a 2nd harmonic from a sideband at least 15 miles away must really have a terrible radio. I doubt WSCR is generating harmonics of their sidebands that strong to be heard that far from the transmitting site. The original post stated that it was believed the interference to 1360 is coming from 1390 AM.

 

[KB1OKL]

One night, probably over 30 years ago, back in the days when 50-kw WCAU (now WPHT) used to sign off its 50-kw signal on 1210 from Midnight or 1 Sunday night until 6 Monday morning, I got a British station on 1206 at around 3 AM. So I know it’s possible.

Probably Daventry 1214, if I recall. One of the easier transatlantic catches. I logged, and verified most, about 100 Europeans ranging from 1133 Zagreb to a couple of the 1484 kHz Spanish 1 kw locals and the relatively easy Radio Luxembourg 1439, Radio Montecarlo 1466 and Portugal on 655 and 1035. But none of the catches, from about 1960 to 1963, were easy, and required an HQ180 or a Collins to pull in, using a loop antenna.

I should have noticed this earlier but the European AM band must have changed a lot since 1960-63. The only three frequencies that correlate with the band are 1206, 1214 and 1035.

 

[KB1OKL]

Bob's point is that the real issue with AM IBOC, from a regulatory standpoint, is the damage it does, via skywave from out-of-market, to in-market reception of in-market signals.

I understand Bob's point and sympathize wholeheartedly with him but unfortunately also believe IBOC also drives up the noise level of the whole band. The damage is a lot more sweeping than just interfering with stations within their own contours. This noise which goes half way across the country at night is much worse than a million dimmers or fluorescent lighting noise will ever be, it is the most horrendous noise I've ever heard on a radio. It's also insidious as it does sound similar to other types of noise to a lot of people, they don't know why the AM band has gotten noisier than it was a few years ago so people will vacate the AM band if it continues to increase. And if it is bad now what would it be like if everyone ran it at night? You would only be able to receive very strong local stations if you could receive anything at all, the rest of the band would be solid IBOC noise and who would listen to that? Skywave would be pretty much useless which is Eduardo's point. The thing is the IBOC is creating this problem and is not a solution at all. The only solution is to turn off ALL the jammers from coast to coast. And don't anyone try to say that all radios would be digital and all signals would be pure digital which would solve the problem (even if it would which is doubtful), that just ain't going to happen.

 

[stormy01]

One night, probably over 30 years ago, back in the days when 50-kw WCAU (now WPHT) used to sign off its 50-kw signal on 1210 from Midnight or 1 Sunday night until 6 Monday morning, I got a British station on 1206 at around 3 AM. So I know it’s possible.

Probably Daventry 1214, if I recall. One of the easier transatlantic catches. I logged, and verified most, about 100 Europeans ranging from 1133 Zagreb to a couple of the 1484 kHz Spanish 1 kw locals and the relatively easy Radio Luxembourg 1439, Radio Montecarlo 1466 and Portugal on 655 and 1035. But none of the catches, from about 1960 to 1963, were easy, and required an HQ180 or a Collins to pull in, using a loop antenna.

I should have noticed this earlier but the European AM band must have changed a lot since 1960-63. The only three frequencies that correlate with the band are 1206, 1214 and 1035.

The current frequency alignment for AM (MW) for ITU Region 1 (which comprises Europe, Africa, the Middle East west of the Persian Gulf including Iraq, the former Soviet Union and Mongolia) and ITU Region 3 (which contains most of non-former-Soviet-Union Asia, east of and including Iran, and most of Oceania) became effective in 1983. The AM band was spaced 9kHz apart starting from 530kHz up to 1602 kHz...this was changed to starting from 531kHz up to 1611kHz. So what was

 

[stormy01]

One night, probably over 30 years ago, back in the days when 50-kw WCAU (now WPHT) used to sign off its 50-kw signal on 1210 from Midnight or 1 Sunday night until 6 Monday morning, I got a British station on 1206 at around 3 AM. So I know it’s possible.

Probably Daventry 1214, if I recall. One of the easier transatlantic catches. I logged, and verified most, about 100 Europeans ranging from 1133 Zagreb to a couple of the 1484 kHz Spanish 1 kw locals and the relatively easy Radio Luxembourg 1439, Radio Montecarlo 1466 and Portugal on 655 and 1035. But none of the catches, from about 1960 to 1963, were easy, and required an HQ180 or a Collins to pull in, using a loop antenna.

1206 (then 1205) would have to have been France, so it likely was 1214 for the UK.

Now as I was saying before the posting timer cut my editing off:

The current frequency alignment for AM (MW) for ITU Region 1 (which comprises Europe, Africa, the Middle East west of the Persian Gulf including Iraq, the former Soviet Union and Mongolia) and ITU Region 3 (which contains most of non-former-Soviet-Union Asia, east of and including Iran, and most of Oceania) became effective in 1983. The AM band had channels spaced 9kHz apart starting from 530kHz up to 1538kHz and, oddly, 8kHz spacing starting at 1538 to 1602kHz...this was changed to channels spaced 9kHz apart from 531kHz to 1611kHz. So what was 1034 is now 1035, 1205 is 1206 and 1214 is now 1215. Daventry on 1214 was an old BBC frequency that was reallocated to Virgin Radio (now called Absolute Radio) and is still heard occasionally on the east coast of the US and the Canadian maritimes on 1215 due to its "split channel" frequency (being between the North American allocations of 1210 and 1220). North, Central and South America are ITU Region 2, and of course, we have 10kHz channel spacing from 530 to 1700 kHz.

 

[KB1OKL]

One night, probably over 30 years ago, back in the days when 50-kw WCAU (now WPHT) used to sign off its 50-kw signal on 1210 from Midnight or 1 Sunday night until 6 Monday morning, I got a British station on 1206 at around 3 AM. So I know it’s possible.

Probably Daventry 1214, if I recall. One of the easier transatlantic catches. I logged, and verified most, about 100 Europeans ranging from 1133 Zagreb to a couple of the 1484 kHz Spanish 1 kw locals and the relatively easy Radio Luxembourg 1439, Radio Montecarlo 1466 and Portugal on 655 and 1035. But none of the catches, from about 1960 to 1963, were easy, and required an HQ180 or a Collins to pull in, using a loop antenna.

I should have noticed this earlier but the European AM band must have changed a lot since 1960-63. The only three frequencies that correlate with the band are 1206, 1214 and 1035.

The current frequency alignment for AM (MW) for ITU Region 1 (which comprises Europe, Africa, the Middle East west of the Persian Gulf including Iraq, the former Soviet Union and Mongolia) and ITU Region 3 (which contains most of non-former-Soviet-Union Asia, east of and including Iran, and most of Oceania) became effective in 1983. The AM band was spaced 9kHz apart starting from 530kHz up to 1602 kHz...this was changed to starting from 531kHz up to 1611kHz.

Yeah I thought that may be the case, I did notice that a lot of them were 1 Kc off and do vaguely remember reading that somewhere. I seem to remember picking up Germany on 1593 sometime before 1983 though on an HRO-60 with a loop. I just read your second post and now see why Germany was on 1593.