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Still no Oldies in NYC?

Re: IT'S ABOUT OLDIES IN NY

It's posted somewhere in this board: Go back and look at WCBS's playlist from the 80's. You'll see the same trend, a few currents, with alot of music from the past 20 years. David's 100% right about that!


> Yes, but the oldies stations that we've listened to in the
> late 80s right through the early 2000s, played songs that
> were at least 20 years old. Now 'Jack' plays stuff from
> 2003, only 2 years old. I guess it is what it is. I am not
> arguing with you, but I just don't agree with the concept.
> ID="signature">______________Kevin
>
 
Re: IT'S ABOUT OLDIES IN NY

> It's posted somewhere in this board: Go back and look at
> WCBS's playlist from the 80's. You'll see the same trend, a
> few currents, with alot of music from the past 20 years.
> David's 100% right about that!

I know he was right about that, but the thing is, I was too young then. The oldies radio landscape I grew up with was basically anything at least 15 or 20 years old to the day. I guess it is what it is.

> > Yes, but the oldies stations that we've listened to in the
>
> > late 80s right through the early 2000s, played songs that
> > were at least 20 years old. Now 'Jack' plays stuff from
> > 2003, only 2 years old. I guess it is what it is. I am not
>
> > arguing with you, but I just don't agree with the concept.
>
> > ID="signature">______________Kevin
> >
>
<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin

</P>
 
Re: OLDIES IN NY

They would have to find a bunch of new jocks. I don't think any of the WCBS-FM jocks are available.

> I still say the biggest home run anybody in the Big Apple
> could hit would be the Infinity boys bringing oldies back to
> the totally-mutt station at 102.7 FM.
>
> <P ID="signature">______________
[email protected]</P>
 
Additionally, they would not have had the intense amount of free publicity if they just repackaged CBS-FM, instead they made it Jack and people all over the country know it.


> Infinity probably figured that keeping the station as "CBS
> FM" even with a "Jack" playlist would probably still give
> the impression to many casual radio listeners that it's an
> "oldies" station, whereas Jack FM gives them a completely
> fresh start, of sorts.
>
> <P ID="signature">______________
[email protected]</P>
 
Oldies jocks

> They would have to find a bunch of new jocks. I don't think
> any of the WCBS-FM jocks are available.


Actually, I think that would be OK. Let's face it, as beloved and legendary as some of the CBS-FM jocks were, they were getting "up there" (in age).

These days, ANYTHING Oldies stations can do so they don't sound "old" would be a good thing. That's not a knock on them personally- Oldies stations just need to do everything they can to sound fresh and (please forgive the expression) "not old".
 
Re: Still no Oldies in NYC...NO BUT...

Plenty of Oldies outlets for Northern and Central Jersey. WNNJ-AM 1360 in Sussex County. WRNJ-AM 1510 in Western Morris & most of Warren County. Also WMTR-AM 1250 in MOST of North Jersey and WWTR-AM 1170 in Central Jersey. My feeling is that it will NOT be long before OLDIES MAKES A RETURN TO the Greater NYC AREA! I'm not really thinking AM either ...................


We Shall See ;-)
 
Re: Still no Oldies in NYC...NO BUT...

> Plenty of Oldies outlets for Northern and Central Jersey.
> WNNJ-AM 1360 in Sussex County. WRNJ-AM 1510 in Western
> Morris & most of Warren County. Also WMTR-AM 1250 in MOST of
> North Jersey and WWTR-AM 1170 in Central Jersey. My feeling
> is that it will NOT be long before OLDIES MAKES A RETURN TO
> the Greater NYC AREA! I'm not really thinking AM either

As another poster suggested, the only way oldies is going to return is by way of small suburban stations. It is truly unlikely that any one who has studied the ratings and revenue decline of CBS-fm would try it on a NYC station again.
 
Re: Still no Oldies in NYC...NO BUT...

> But CERTAINLY POSSIBLE my friend!!!

I can not see any public company that has a responsibilty to investors doing the format on a New York City licensed FM. The numbers are so clearly and easily seen as totally invalidating any assumptions that it would be a much criticized move: "why did you pick up a format that cost WCBS-FM a loss of revenue vs. the market of over 40% over the last 7 years?"
 
Re: Still no Oldies in NYC...NO BUT...

> > But CERTAINLY POSSIBLE my friend!!!
>
> I can not see any public company that has a responsibilty to
> investors doing the format on a New York City licensed FM.
> The numbers are so clearly and easily seen as totally
> invalidating any assumptions that it would be a much
> criticized move: "why did you pick up a format that cost
> WCBS-FM a loss of revenue vs. the market of over 40% over
> the last 7 years?"
>

Don't we all hate reality? I know I do.
 
Because, David...

Radio is every bit as much of an art as it is a business. You can type until you are blue in the face about how Oldies did not make money, blah blah blah... CBS FM could not do it, blah blah blah... the numbers say it will not work, blah blah blah...

The problem is, we are not talking about a Polka format, or a some kind of abstract dance format. We are talking about Oldies in the traditional Top 40 delivery. And, again, we are not talking about East Podunk (with apologies to those who live in East Podunk), we are taking about the biggest radio and television market in the United States of America

Let me ask you something, what if Z100 were to drop Top 40 today, and there was no more top 40 in New York City. The numbers all said that Top 40 was dead (and please, do not go quoting me numbers and research about CHR). Does that mean that there would be no more Top 40 stations in New York City forever? I don't think so.

David, honestly, I do not care what all your research says. Just because CBS FM could not survive does not mean that (a non-Jack delieverty) Oldies will not come back. I see no reason why Clear-channel wouldn't try it.

I remember, once a upon a time there were no Coutry stations in New York City either, and that didn't last. There were no disco station in New York, now there are two.

The Jack FM format is too abstract and too experimental to pre-empt any other stations from comming on.

Yes, I agree, it IS possible for Oldies to come back, not just to the suburbs, but to New York City.
Just MHO.


> > But CERTAINLY POSSIBLE my friend!!!
>
> I can not see any public company that has a responsibilty to
> investors doing the format on a New York City licensed FM.
> The numbers are so clearly and easily seen as totally
> invalidating any assumptions that it would be a much
> criticized move: "why did you pick up a format that cost
> WCBS-FM a loss of revenue vs. the market of over 40% over
> the last 7 years?"
>
 
Re: Because, David...

> Radio is every bit as much of an art as it is a business.
> You can type until you are blue in the face about how Oldies
> did not make money, blah blah blah... CBS FM could not do
> it, blah blah blah... the numbers say it will not work, blah
> blah blah...

Radio is a business. If a company or one individual owner has a $400 million dollar asset, they are not going to be happy to se it in decline. CBS FM declined over 20% in 25-54 numbers since this Millenium started, and billing is down against a market increase by a spread of nearly 40%. Horrible. Time to change. Leaky roof.
>
> The problem is, we are not talking about a Polka format, or
> a some kind of abstract dance format. We are talking about
> Oldies in the traditional Top 40 delivery. And, again, we
> are not talking about East Podunk (with apologies to those
> who live in East Podunk), we are taking about the biggest
> radio and television market in the United States of America

I don't care if the station is in Durban, SA. If it is not delivering any more, and the advertisers don't want it, it is time to change.
>
> Let me ask you something, what if Z100 were to drop Top 40
> today, and there was no more top 40 in New York City. The
> numbers all said that Top 40 was dead (and please, do not go
> quoting me numbers and research about CHR). Does that mean
> that there would be no more Top 40 stations in New York City
> forever? I don't think so.

In my opinion, hip hop and rhythmic is the CHR of today. There is very little interest in the kind of CHR that created the Backstreets any more. And alternative is becomeing a CHR niche, not a mainstream play.

So, if Z 100 were to change formats (not likely based on ratings and billing) I would say they simply read the cards for the future and decided to beat the odds by getting out of a future of decline.

There is too much insistence on putting names on formats. A listener does not listen to a station because it is format A, B or C. They listen because they like the station and its music. Who cares what it is called. I could call a station "American hodge-podge" and name it "Asparagus 107" and if the music was right, a group of listeners would come, despite what I called the fomrat or the station. Names are irrelevant.
>
> David, honestly, I do not care what all your research says.
> Just because CBS FM could not survive does not mean that (a
> non-Jack delieverty) Oldies will not come back. I see no
> reason why Clear-channel wouldn't try it.

The market conditions are the same for CCU as for Infinity. The 25-54 appeal of the format is rapidly declining, and the rating sreflect it. Every year, there will be less potential for attracting advertisers and listeners that advertisers care about. If that is reasearch, so be it. I believe it is reality. You can't sail in the doldurms.
>
> I remember, once a upon a time there were no Coutry stations
> in New York City either, and that didn't last. There were no
> disco station in New York, now there are two.

Formats come and go or evolve depending on listener interest.
>
> The Jack FM format is too abstract and too experimental to
> pre-empt any other stations from comming on.

Too experimental? It's #1 English 25-54 in LA, and popped to the top in June in Seattle, for example. The songs are all hits. It has logic. It may not wear as well as the long run of 60's oldies, but who cares?
>
> Yes, I agree, it IS possible for Oldies to come back, not
> just to the suburbs, but to New York City.
> Just MHO.

Research is just another term for "talking to the listeners." Not listening to research is the same as ignoring the wishes and needs of the listeners.

Anyone who consults with listeners and knows where the money is will know oldies is an unlikely return.
 
Re: Because, David...

> > Radio is every bit as much of an art as it is a business.
> > You can type until you are blue in the face about how
> Oldies
> > did not make money, blah blah blah... CBS FM could not do
>
> > it, blah blah blah... the numbers say it will not work,
> blah
> > blah blah...
>
> Radio is a business. If a company or one individual owner
> has a $400 million dollar asset, they are not going to be
> happy to se it in decline. CBS FM declined over 20% in 25-54
> numbers since this Millenium started, and billing is down
> against a market increase by a spread of nearly 40%.
> Horrible. Time to change. Leaky roof.
> >
> > The problem is, we are not talking about a Polka format,
> or
> > a some kind of abstract dance format. We are talking about
>
> > Oldies in the traditional Top 40 delivery. And, again, we
>
> > are not talking about East Podunk (with apologies to those
>
> > who live in East Podunk), we are taking about the biggest
> > radio and television market in the United States of
> America
>
> I don't care if the station is in Durban, SA. If it is not
> delivering any more, and the advertisers don't want it, it
> is time to change.
> >
> > Let me ask you something, what if Z100 were to drop Top 40
>
> > today, and there was no more top 40 in New York City. The
> > numbers all said that Top 40 was dead (and please, do not
> go
> > quoting me numbers and research about CHR). Does that mean
>
> > that there would be no more Top 40 stations in New York
> City
> > forever? I don't think so.
>
> In my opinion, hip hop and rhythmic is the CHR of today.
> There is very little interest in the kind of CHR that
> created the Backstreets any more. And alternative is
> becomeing a CHR niche, not a mainstream play.
>
> So, if Z 100 were to change formats (not likely based on
> ratings and billing) I would say they simply read the cards
> for the future and decided to beat the odds by getting out
> of a future of decline.
>
> There is too much insistence on putting names on formats. A
> listener does not listen to a station because it is format
> A, B or C. They listen because they like the station and its
> music. Who cares what it is called. I could call a station
> "American hodge-podge" and name it "Asparagus 107" and if
> the music was right, a group of listeners would come,
> despite what I called the fomrat or the station. Names are
> irrelevant.
> >
> > David, honestly, I do not care what all your research
> says.
> > Just because CBS FM could not survive does not mean that
> (a
> > non-Jack delieverty) Oldies will not come back. I see no
> > reason why Clear-channel wouldn't try it.
>
> The market conditions are the same for CCU as for Infinity.
> The 25-54 appeal of the format is rapidly declining, and the
> rating sreflect it. Every year, there will be less potential
> for attracting advertisers and listeners that advertisers
> care about. If that is reasearch, so be it. I believe it is
> reality. You can't sail in the doldurms.
> >
> > I remember, once a upon a time there were no Coutry
> stations
> > in New York City either, and that didn't last. There were
> no
> > disco station in New York, now there are two.
>
> Formats come and go or evolve depending on listener
> interest.
> >
> > The Jack FM format is too abstract and too experimental to
>
> > pre-empt any other stations from comming on.
>
> Too experimental? It's #1 English 25-54 in LA, and popped to
> the top in June in Seattle, for example. The songs are all
> hits. It has logic. It may not wear as well as the long run
> of 60's oldies, but who cares?
> >
> > Yes, I agree, it IS possible for Oldies to come back, not
> > just to the suburbs, but to New York City.
> > Just MHO.
>
> Research is just another term for "talking to the
> listeners." Not listening to research is the same as
> ignoring the wishes and needs of the listeners.
>
> Anyone who consults with listeners and knows where the money
> is will know oldies is an unlikely return.
>

Unfortunatley David is right with pretty much everything he says Garrett. Radio is an art, but the business part over powers it. As David said, if the station is losing a lot of money, it is time for a change. In this issue, advertisers have a lot of power. Like Michael B. said below, "reality sucks" or something like that. That is what he meant.
<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
Re: Because, David...

> Unfortunatley David is right with pretty much everything he
> says Garrett. Radio is an art, but the business part over
> powers it. As David said, if the station is losing a lot of
> money, it is time for a change. In this issue, advertisers
> have a lot of power. Like Michael B. said below, "reality
> sucks" or something like that. That is what he meant.
>

Yeah, I know.

Still, I'd like to see somebody take some risks.
But I guess the risk is too great to take in a market this size.
 
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