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Summer book out! KJLH, KSSE and KKGO beat KRBV! Bottom drops out of MoVin!

Deregulation has not given us more choices of formats in Los Angeles. We're missing just from the fm commercial dial soft rock (knx-fm), jazz, classical, current (non-alternative) rock (Kmet/Klos/Knac - to name a few), beautiful music, aaa, dance (kute) just to name some.

Specifically for Spanish language stations there is only ONE reason why Los Angeles has more Spanish language stations now vs. 25 years ago and that is the vast amount of illegal aliens, mostly from Mexico, who have come to Los Angeles. Legal immigration over the last 25 years of non-Hispanics has amounted to ZER0 new fm formats. In fact there is still only one non-spanish or english language fm in Los Angeles period - with a poor signal - despite a large increase in legal non-Hispanic immigation in this market. That's diversity under deregulation? NOT.

As I count them there are more than 10 share points 12+ for CHR in Los Angeles. Kiis and Power share more than 80 percent of the same songs. There isn't an english language song on Latino 96.3 that isn't heard on Kiis. The formatics of Latino 96.3 are exactly the same as any CHR.
 
laitpapi said:
Deregulation has not given us more choices of formats in Los Angeles. We're missing just from the fm commercial dial soft rock (knx-fm), jazz, classical, current (non-alternative) rock (Kmet/Klos/Knac - to name a few), beautiful music, aaa, dance (kute) just to name some.

Most of those formats are not viable anywhere, and have moved on to other options.

Beautiful music died in most of the US in the mid to late 80's at the latest. Real jazz died nearly everywhere decades ago, and dance is not viable and has not been for 15 years or so... anywhere. AAA could not make it in LA, and, in fact, only makes it in a small number of markets nationally that have the right demos, ethnicity and psychographics. Classical is on a non-com, and those count. Jack is pretty much soft rock (another format that only worked in some fragmented markets). Where is the, othder than alternative / active rock, a current based rocker? KNAC lost mony for Sands for years, which is why he sold KNAC... he could no longer afford to keep it up.

So all the formats you suggest are not viable, or exist in a contemporized form in LA today.

Specifically for Spanish language stations there is only ONE reason why Los Angeles has more Spanish language stations now vs. 25 years ago and that is the vast amount of illegal aliens, mostly from Mexico, who have come to Los Angeles.

Hi, again Glenn. Nice to see you with yet another name, and we can start an on-line pool to see how long you last without being banned for this one.

Most Hispanics in the US, over 80%, are not illegal. And ratings seldom get participation from illegals of any kind, as participation requires revealing a lot of personal data. Not happening, happening even less in PPM.

Legal immigration over the last 25 years of non-Hispanics has amounted to ZER0 new fm formats. In fact there is still only one non-spanish or english language fm in Los Angeles period - with a poor signal - despite a large increase in legal non-Hispanic immigation in this market. That's diversity under deregulation? NOT.

There are FM Asian formats, many new Hispanic formats, a new Bloack format, Jack (which may really be soft rock), as well as the metamorphosis of many existing stations. There is even the Wave, which in a manner replaced Beautiful.

As I count them there are more than 10 share points 12+ for CHR in Los Angeles. Kiis and Power share more than 80 percent of the same songs. There isn't an english language song on Latino 96.3 that isn't heard on Kiis. The formatics of Latino 96.3 are exactly the same as any CHR.

Latino is a reggaetón station with some hip hop accents. Power is a hip hop station with some R&b accents. KIIS is CHR. Everyone has their own idea of what a format is or isn't, but the fact is that the common music on each is less than a third of the music on any other, so to me they are separtate formats... Power is at least Churban, KIIS is CHR, Latino is reggaetí n (and reggaetón is not hip hop in Spanish... it comes from totally different origins... in Panama, in fact.)
 
There is no way of knowing if illegal aliens participate in Arbitron. Just like the U.S. Census, the question is not asked by Arbitron. But because Arbitron uses U.S. Census figures, illegal aliens are counted and weighted just like anyone here legally. There would be no other reason for the massive growth of Hispanics in Los Angeles county in the last 30 years. Some of the biggest zip codes for Spanish language stations in Los Angeles have fewer registered voters than some congressional districts in Wyoming or Idaho. Another big clue as to who is driving the ratings of Spanish language stations.

Los Angeles Spanish language radio stations will never be able to bring in the revenue that English language stations can. Hispanics continue to lose income and have less buying power than Whites, Asians, Blacks. Hispanics are driven down as a group by illegal aliens. Simply, buying Spanish language radio is a bad buy for most advertisers.

Jack is nothing like Mellow Rock Knx-fm. Get real.

Under the PPM, it appears this market can support a KNAC like format. Emmis should try it on their dying 93.9.

Latino itself does not bill itself on-air as just a reggaeton and hip hop station and they are correct.

Kiis has more in common with rhythmic Chr's than pop Chr's musically. Power is no Churban as it has moved its music to nearly mirror Kiis which is the clear reason for its rebound.
 
What Fm commercial Asian formatS are there in Los Angeles? Only 106.3 broadcasts specifically to Asians. There are fewer formats today not more.

There is no growth in formats targeting blacks and for good reason. Los Angeles had Kjlh and Kace for years before Kkbt came along (as well as 2 am's). Now we have sort of 3 with Kday trying to become more mainstream and V100 in what appears to be its final days or months.

There are at least 2 million illegal alien Hispanics in Los Angeles (low estimate). What stations are they listening to and being counted by Arbitron?
 
laitpapi said:
What Fm commercial Asian formatS are there in Los Angeles? Only 106.3 broadcasts specifically to Asians. There are fewer formats today not more.

There was no Asian FM pre-deregulation.

There is no growth in formats targeting blacks and for good reason.

We now have an overlapping format, Churban, on KPWR. We have Urban on KJLH, and Hip Hop on 93.5 and smooth jazz on KTWV plust Urban AC on KRBV. That is 5 different formats thast appeal priincipally or substantially to Blacks. What did we have pre-deregulation? KGFJ?

Los Angeles had Kjlh and Kace for years before Kkbt came along (as well as 2 am's). Now we have sort of 3 with Kday trying to become more mainstream and V100 in what appears to be its final days or months.

And we have Power with a huge black overindexing as well as The Wave... none of these existed pre-deregulation.

There are at least 2 million illegal alien Hispanics in Los Angeles (low estimate). What stations are they listening to and being counted by Arbitron?

None. Illegals don't fill in diaries as the recruit process requires revealing name, address, names of familiy members, income level, etc., etc. So illegals probably have zero influence on ratings.
 
laitpapi said:
There is no way of knowing if illegal aliens participate in Arbitron. Just like the U.S. Census, the question is not asked by Arbitron.

You are full of it on this subject... just totally ill-informed and oblivious to reality.

The Census does not ask names... they do not record any personal data that can be traced to a specific person. Arbitron requires,m for the diary, the giving of a name and information on the family size, employment status, income, etc. It also requires having a phone; the Census does not.

An illegal, by the simplest logic, is not going to be recruited. And in the upcoming PPM, where they have to have frequent contact with Arbitron, have equipment or a phone line installed inthe home, etc., aboiut 0% of illegals would cooperate. Illegas try to be anonymous, not give their name, and not answer questions. They don't participate in surveys.


But because Arbitron uses U.S. Census figures, illegal aliens are counted and weighted just like anyone here legally.

First, we are 7 years after the Census. Second, Arbitron does not use Census figures, it uses Census data processed by Claritas, and Claritas uses a whole lot of additional sources besides the Census. And the "Census" argument fails when you consider that the undercounts in the Southwest are almost all from non-legal residents... about 3% of the SoCal population or about a half-million in 2000.

There would be no other reason for the massive growth of Hispanics in Los Angeles county in the last 30 years. Some of the biggest zip codes for Spanish language stations in Los Angeles have fewer registered voters than some congressional districts in Wyoming or Idaho. Another big clue as to who is driving the ratings of Spanish language stations.

A huge percentage of Hispanics are legal residents, but not citizens. That does not mean they are illegal.

Los Angeles Spanish language radio stations will never be able to bring in the revenue that English language stations can. Hispanics continue to lose income and have less buying power than Whites, Asians, Blacks. Hispanics are driven down as a group by illegal aliens. Simply, buying Spanish language radio is a bad buy for most advertisers.

Huh? Hispanics in the US have $1 trillion in buying power. In many markets, Spanish langauge stations have over 1:1 power ratios, and LA is approaching that this year, when the market will be off 4% or more, but Hispanic stations up 10% to 12%.

Jack is nothing like Mellow Rock Knx-fm. Get real.

It's the same concept... 25 or 30 years later.

Under the PPM, it appears this market can support a KNAC like format. Emmis should try it on their dying 93.9.

No, it can't. The market is so ethnic that such a format that has mostly zero appeal among ethnic groups would do worse than it did in 1994... which was when it was mercifully sold and put to death.

Latino itself does not bill itself on-air as just a reggaeton and hip hop station and they are correct.

Yeah, but that is all they play. I just looked at MediaBase for the last 7 days, and there is nothing that is not reggatón in Spanish (bachata is played by all reggaetón stations, even in Puerto Rico), and the English stuff is hip hop or its first cousins.

Kiis has more in common with rhythmic Chr's than pop Chr's musically. Power is no Churban as it has moved its music to nearly mirror Kiis which is the clear reason for its rebound.

Run a custom Mediabase on KIIS and KPWR and you can see they are not at all alike, despite what you claim. 10 of the top 20 spins on each are different
 
The only one posting in this thread that is full of it is you David Eduardo, Old Gringo or whatever handle you are using today. The nonsense you've posted in this thead is laughable.

How easy is it to lie to participate in Arbitron? They verify nothing beyond your phone number. Your information is useless.

Spanish langage radio and Arbitron ratio ratings are totally influenced by illegal alien listenership. To say anything else would be a lie. It exposes you as being unbelieveable. The growth of Spanish language radio both in Los Angeles and nationwide is tied to the invasion of illegal aliens. Most Spanish language stations would not exist without them nor would their Arbitron ratings. Your ststements would be quite a revelation to Univision advertisers who target the illegal alien community.

I don't see any illegal aliens hinding in any shadows. They're constantly trying to work for me but their false documents don't match who they are. They all give me phone numbers so that blows your Arbitron phone number phony theory.

Illegal aliens are counted by census workers. Can you please link us all to a webpage that says they do not?

I am correct in that Arbitron uses U.S. Census figures. Thank you. Any idiot knows they are constantly estimated and updated.

Your figure is way off on the illegal alien population in California. It is closer to 6 million (low estimate).

Power is not a black format station. It is also not Churban. The Wave is not a black format station. If you'd like to return to the early 80's, I'd be happy to provide the formats blacks listened to besides Kgfj, Kday, Kjlh and Kace which were all black targeted stations and in most cases black owned. We'll start with Kute 102.

Los Angeles has seen two Asian format fm's at once. It is now down to one. Thst one station is also being placed in a trust so MultiCultural can buy Channel 64.

I certainly am well informed on everything related to illegal aliens and their influence on radio ratings. It's just you, David, who wants to spin and lie.
 
Latino 96.3 plays two hours non-stop of English language music weekdays. It's also playing all of Kiis's top hits.

Since you admit Arbitron uses U.S. Cenus data which includes illegal alien participation, that is a start for you to admit the truth that illegal aliens make up a large percentage of Spanish language radio listening and ratings, David.

Los Angeles can support a Mt. Wilson rock fm. An up-to-date Knac like fm would bring in the hard to find and highly desirable- among advertisers - young male under the PPM.

Jack and Knxfm are nothing alike except their dial position. They have absolutely nothing in common including the targeted listener.

Income among Hispanics continues to decrease. I will post a link proving this if asked. Their buying power and disposable income is considersbly less than any ethnic group.

Enjoy your last year of increases. Hispanics are already being layed off faster in California than any other ethnic group. I guess you didn't read the L.A. Times on Friday. Rough years ahead for all. Even rougher for those illegal aliens that drive Spanish language radio growth, ratings and revenue.

There are far fewer Hispanic green card holders than illegal alien Hispanics in Los Angeles and nationwide. They make up a tiny portion of Hispanics in the United States.

If you'd just admit that illegal aliens make up a huge part of Spanish language radio listening and Arbitron ratings, David, rather than try to hide it in the shadows, we might consider you a useful poster here. Now you're only making yourself look stupid. We're not ignorant. Stop trying to treat us as such.
 
laitpapi said:
Latino 96.3 plays two hours non-stop of English language music weekdays. It's also playing all of Kiis's top hits.

You don't know how to pull a MediaBase; about 15 of the most played 20 songs on KXOL are reggaetón, and not played elsewehere.

Since you admit Arbitron uses U.S. Cenus data which includes illegal alien participation, that is a start for you to admit the truth that illegal aliens make up a large percentage of Spanish language radio listening and ratings, David.

Arbitron does not use Census data directly, it uses Claritas data that conts the Census as one of its sources.

Los Angeles can support a Mt. Wilson rock fm. An up-to-date Knac like fm would bring in the hard to find and highly desirable- among advertisers - young male under the PPM.

The market does not have neough young white males. The ethnic influence ha smade this a very rhythmic market, too.

There are far fewer Hispanic green card holders than illegal alien Hispanics in Los Angeles and nationwide. They make up a tiny portion of Hispanics in the United States.

There are now around 42 million Hispanics in the 50 states, and maybe 7 (the remaining 4 million illegals in the US are non-Hispanic) million are illegal. That is 20% tops. Your math does not work.

If you'd just admit that illegal aliens make up a huge part of Spanish language radio listening and Arbitron ratings, David, rather than try to hide it in the shadows, we might consider you a useful poster here. Now you're only making yourself look stupid. We're not ignorant. Stop trying to treat us as such.

Illegals do not get surveyed, so their listening habits do not get measured. Even if, to some extent, the population data includes some illegals, their listening habits are not sampled so the ratings represent the legal portion projected onto the illegal one... the illegals have no effect on audience measurement.

The fact is that illegals are going nowhere... we are at near-lows in unemployment, to what economists call funcional full employment, and yet we seem to need the illegals. Were they to leave, the economies of many growing cities would collapese,a nd LA would be like Rochester or Utica.
 
laitpapi said:
How easy is it to lie to participate in Arbitron? They verify nothing beyond your phone number. Your information is useless.

They ask for your address and name. Illegals don't do that.

Illegal aliens are counted by census workers. Can you please link us all to a webpage that says they do not?

Logic says they do not. A decade of working with research samples of my own says they do not. When name and address have to be given, illegals bail from any project.

I am correct in that Arbitron uses U.S. Census figures. Thank you. Any idiot knows they are constantly estimated and updated.

Yeah, but Aribtron gets its data from Claritas, not the Census. And they have a whole demographic department to anyalze the data.

Power is not a black format station. It is also not Churban.

Look at audience composition, It vastly overindexes on Black, meaning that is the biggest point of appeal.

The Wave is not a black format station.

It vastly overindexes against Blacks, so it is most successful among Black listeners.

f you'd like to return to the early 80's, I'd be happy to provide the formats blacks listened to besides Kgfj, Kday, Kjlh and Kace which were all black targeted stations and in most cases black owned. We'll start with Kute 102.

Ah, and how did it index against Blacks? And how long did it last.
 
David:

I agree with you on almost everything - except the potential for another rock station. I've had rock stations in heavy Hispanic markets that skew almost 50% Hispanic in their cume. English-primary Hispanic males will listen to rock music - especially hard rock music.

You know as well as anyone else that KROQ has a relatively decent size Hispanic audience.

KDLD/KDLE have a low Hispanic comp because of the music they play - not necessarily because they are a rock station.

Power 106 gained more Black listeners once KKBT shifted to Urban AC and does overindex - you are correct.

The problem is - we have five stations with Black appeal for 7.5% of the population. That is where we have too many stations, in my opinion.
 
Radioresearcher said:
David:

I agree with you on almost everything - except the potential for another rock station. I've had rock stations in heavy Hispanic markets that skew almost 50% Hispanic in their cume. English-primary Hispanic males will listen to rock music - especially hard rock music.

But with LA 61% Spanish dominant, there is an indication that the community is not substantially assimilated; remember too that bilingulas, who usually acquired English as a second language, are not likely hard rock listeners. For that, it takes a community like San Antonio, with many 3rd generation and beyond Hispanics... does the name Jerry Garcia suggest an anecdotal situation? ;)

I don't doubt that the PPM bias towards male listening will help rock as a broad genre. And Hispanics in assimilation do listen to rock, as evidenced by KROQ which indexes very positively with Hispanics. But the referece was to a current based format and even included the KNAC calls as an example. Hard rcock, as opposed ot alternative / active rock, would not fare as well in LA. The opening might be there, but it would not translate into a big performer (over a 3 share and top 15 12+) in my estimation.

You know as well as anyone else that KROQ has a relatively decent size Hispanic audience.

Yeah, it actually overindexes against English dominant Hispanics. But it is not that hard, and is fairly familiar, too.

KDLD/KDLE have a low Hispanic comp because of the music they play - not necessarily because they are a rock station.

Too current, too broad for an audience group that may not have grown up on rock.

The problem is - we have five stations with Black appeal for 7.5% of the population. That is where we have too many stations, in my opinion.

And the ones that do well, The Wave and Power, have significant listening in non-Black sectors. That proves your point... there are two that are superfluous, KDAY and the latest Radio One episode, so what we may end up with is KJLH being the community and r&b station (they should buy 100.3!) and KDAY finding a better mix or better format. Shouldda' stayed in Korean programming, given the signal.
 
This thread is going too much in the direction of immigration and it's effect.

Almost all the allocations in the LA area were given before FM had achieved any kind of economic viability. There have only been a couple of new channels, class A's all, in the last 40 years. Whatever was promised back then is irrelevant as the LA area is so different in ethnic composition and lifestyle.

And... really important... the FCC does and did not approve music formats. The only made sure that the station complied technically and would do some kind of service to the community it covered.

I can remember far enough back to when FM licenses went to anyone who wanted one, a lot in the area I grew up in went to the Class D daytimers who wanted an after sunset presence. Then when the AM license freeze came about they assumed more value and the rise of interest in Hi Fidelity and Stereo listening further drove AM to a lessor status. The the FCC started pressuring AM-FM combos to cease simulcasting and applicants in smaller suburban communities applied for Class A FM's that were intended to serve as a local radio voice (as also were the old "local" AM 250 watt stations).

Now those fringe area signals surrounding a larger metro are being made into big market stations even though the cover only a fraction of the larger city. Here they are being formed into a network of simulcasts because no high power signals are available. So even though the FCC has no power over formats, what is happening is that there is no place for any variety.

When everybody is trying to reach the same listeners, ethnic, demographic or whatever though at some point they will lower the overall ratings for everybody. In the meantime other groups like the country listeners get left out like the KZLA-KMVN flip. My contention is that the owners need to accept that not every signal will garner the top ratings and they need to make some decisions about who will listen and to what and then put that on the air.

In the old days it was hard for an individual owner, especially in a market like LA to justify keeping a low rated format on but the economies of group ownership allows certain basic overhead costs to be spread out and the sales people can place ads over the cluster which should help. So if there are formats like AAA then they could find a home.

By the way, when was beautiful music ever truly viable? I remember it from the days when AM-FM combos had to split and it was an easy format to automate in the technology of those times. The stations had to separate the stations and where I was at the time, the space in the building made it impossible to do live on AM and FM at the same time. If they didn't separate the FCC was going to make them surrender one license.
 
nmoore6676 said:
I can remember far enough back to when FM licenses went to anyone who wanted one, a lot in the area I grew up in went to the Class D daytimers who wanted an after sunset presence. Then when the AM license freeze came about they assumed more value and the rise of interest in Hi Fidelity and Stereo listening further drove AM to a lessor status. The the FCC started pressuring AM-FM combos to cease simulcasting and applicants in smaller suburban communities applied for Class A FM's that were intended to serve as a local radio voice (as also were the old "local" AM 250 watt stations).

The FCC mandated that by 1967, simulcasting could no longer be employed in co-owned AM / FM combos. In other words, they forced separate FM programming in an attempt to jumpstart FM about 47 years after the first FMs went on the air. Almost all the available allocations in markets of 100,000 or more were taken by that time.

AM stations could never apply for an FM in "their community" unless the table of allocations had a channel in that community. Often, additions were petitioned for but that invited competing applications.

Now those fringe area signals surrounding a larger metro are being made into big market stations even though the cover only a fraction of the larger city.

That was the direct effect of Docket 80-90 and the preceeding actions of the Commission based on Bonita Springs. There, in the late 70's, Richard Friedman's Class A in Bonita Springs applied to become a C; at that time such a move was a change that allowed competing applications, and Friedman, who just wanted to improve his signal, lost to a consortium of the 8 to 10 parties that filed on him.

After that, the FCC decided such changes, including a change in class and a change in city of license, would not automatically be subject to a filing window for competing applications. This opened up, by the late 80's to early 90's, the opportunity for over a thousand new FMs and hundreds and hundreds of major changes in facilities such as upgraded class and change in city of license. But that is nearly 20 years ago.

Here they are being formed into a network of simulcasts because no high power signals are available.

There are very few simulcasts of FMs to cover a single market area... you can count the ones nationally in the tens, not the hundreds or thousands. In most cases, they are stations that were never viable alone, which, together, render decent service to metros that, in most cases, were much smaller when the original FM tables were created.

When everybody is trying to reach the same listeners, ethnic, demographic or whatever though at some point they will lower the overall ratings for everybody.

There are only 100 shares of listening... ever. How stations compete to get their share depends on the format, the size of the listener base and the signal as well as the skill in executing the format. Since competing head to head is so expensive, what we see today is a lot of flanking, where formats that might have had three identical stations 30 years ago now have three slightly different ones... such as AC in LA, where we have an alternative leaning one, a brighter newer one that is akin to Hot AC, and a gold based one. In the 70's, we had three or four beautiful music stations playing the same music for all practical purposes. Which is better?

In the meantime other groups like the country listeners get left out like the KZLA-KMVN flip. My contention is that the owners need to accept that not every signal will garner the top ratings and they need to make some decisions about who will listen and to what and then put that on the air.

KZLA changed format because country, with the passing of every year, got a smaller and smaller share due to the makup of the LA market. Formats that do not make much money, or ones that look like they will make no money are changed. Sol Levine was very candid in saying that classical was no longer viable in LA, and that as a single owner he could not hold on any longer and thus rationalized going country... maybe he can make it with a 1.2 share, but I suspect he may spin the format wheel again... not many years from now.

In the old days it was hard for an individual owner, especially in a market like LA to justify keeping a low rated format on but the economies of group ownership allows certain basic overhead costs to be spread out and the sales people can place ads over the cluster which should help. So if there are formats like AAA then they could find a home.

AAA went out in '97 with just over a 1 share. It may not even be able to do that today. There are many formats, like KBIG, KYSR, etc. that do not get huge shares, but do stay viable due to the economics of group or cluster operation. But at some point, a bad format is a bad format and gets changed.

By the way, when was beautiful music ever truly viable? I remember it from the days when AM-FM combos had to split and it was an easy format to automate in the technology of those times. The stations had to separate the stations and where I was at the time, the space in the building made it impossible to do live on AM and FM at the same time. If they didn't separate the FCC was going to make them surrender one license.

Those stations were the top billers in many markets through the early 80's. If you look at a median year, 1975, Beautifuls were the top FM billers in nearly every market, and in some markets, we had two of them in the top 5 FM billers (Duncan's American Radio 1975-2004). This is why companies like SRP and Bonneville and FM 100 had several hundred subscribers each. Eventually, demographics and the total cessation of instrumental recording (except custom music) killed this one, but it was the big money maker for the better part of 20 years, from the late 60's to the mid-80's.
 
Saul Levine was very candid in saying that classical was no longer viable in LA, and that as a single owner he could not hold on any longer and thus rationalized going country... maybe he can make it with a 1.2 share, but I suspect he may spin the format wheel again... not many years from now.

KKGO was jazz for about 30 years until they picked up classical from KFAC and then stayed on that format for around 18 years, not a lot of spinning of the format wheel. His AM station is another matter as you know.

There are only 100 shares of listening... ever. How stations compete to get their share depends on the format, the size of the listener base and the signal as well as the skill in executing the format. Since competing head to head is so expensive, what we see today is a lot of flanking, where formats that might have had three identical stations 30 years ago now have three slightly different ones... such as AC in LA, where we have an alternative leaning one, a brighter newer one that is akin to Hot AC, and a gold based one. In the 70's, we had three or four beautiful music stations playing the same music for all practical purposes. Which is better?

My question to you is how will all of this fallout with PPM. You seem pretty well educated on these matters and although I don't agree with the concept I have to accept the practice. You can get practically any music you want on satellite or the digital audio that comes with your cable service. The question I have then is what happens to terrestrial when everyone is listening to these other technologies? If you look at the listener base as a whole pie, and everyone takes a proportional slice based on percentage of listeners, then what happens if fewer actual pieces are taken as the listeners go to alternative delivery?
 
Jumping in here as a listener, not an insider.

Deregulation may or may not have created more formats. (I say no way.)

However, one thing for certain: the playlists are so much narrower. Compare, for instance, the old KLOS or KMET with the current KLOS. Or even the old KLSX with the current KLOS. Or how about the 80s KRTH against what it is now?

Just looking at rock alone, in the late 80s you had:

KLOS - Album rock, fairly deep playlist
KLSX - Classic rock, very deep playlist
KNAC - Heavy metal specialist
KROQ - Modern Rock, still a trendsetter and spinning some variety, even after 86 sale
KRTH - Oldies stretching from 50s to 70s, far deeper playlist than today
KCBS - Another oldies station at the time
KMPC-FM - Eclectic rock, new and old

Today:

KLOS - Very limited, small playlist of classic rock
KRTH - Very limited, small playlist of late 60s/70s oldies
KCBS - Combination of well-known songs from the old KROQ, KLOS, KIIS formats, among others
KROQ - Very limited, small playlist of current, corporate rock
Indie 103 - Bucking the trend, but a shoestring operation with no real impact.

So you've got to go beyond just examining what kinds of formats exist.
 
KRTH's tight playlist began in 1991 with the hiring of Mike Phillips as PD. This was done to reverse declining ratings. It was way before deregulation during RKO's ownership.
 
KRTH's library has increased quite a bit since Jhani Kaye took over, the amount of repetition is down, and they've gone much deeper into the eighties than they ever have, adding songs such as 'Freeway Of Love' (1985), 'Kokomo' (1988) and even Santana's 'Smooth' (1999) to their library.
 
The move to some 90's music on KRTH is a mistake. The station, as WCBS has proved, will live in the 60's, 70's era of hits with spike 80's songs that fit (Phil Collins "Can't Hurry Love" Bob S. "Old Time Rock N Roll). Greatest Hit's stations that try to extend beyond that to grab listeners or add variety will drop. KRTH is not the station it was, but much of that is their own doing. Phillips had it dialed in in the early 90's with a tight rotation and hit based playlist. No matter what the format, the key is to play the hits not the misses. Outside of Kelly, talent on KTRH is weak. Am I the only one that feels C. Tuna is the perfect fit for mornings on this station. Heritage name, good following. Bryan is a placeholder, in and out of the job. Tuna would be a nice addition in my humble opinion. PPM will make this station even more of a factor, if they execute and stay true to the format.
 
Scooty430 has hit on a major programming fault:
However, one thing for certain: the playlists are so much narrower. Compare, for instance, the old KLOS or KMET with the current KLOS. Or even the old KLSX with the current KLOS. Or how about the 80s KRTH against what it is now?

I think the thinking was that listeners would tune out if they didn't hear something they recognized within 5 minutes. That could be true if there were just choices of stations with essentially the same play lists which might drive listeners to scan the dial for "their song". If you have a variety of different choices of distinct formats then the listener might be more inclined to "not touch that dial", to borrow from an old DJ admonition.

I think it was the "Insane Darrell Wayne" who used to tell his listeners to send in their knobs and one DJ I listen to on line says "Turn it up big and loud, then pull the knob off". So does anyone ever actually listen to only one station and could you ever get it to be that way?
 
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