No matter what kind of spin you want to put to it, the fact remains Wilmington is its own metro area and its own radio market.
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
"Talkradio 1210" -- No More "Big Talker" Come January?
- Thread starter BRUSSTAR
- Start date
MikefromDelaware said:No matter what kind of spin you want to put to it, the fact remains Wilmington is its own metro area and its own radio market.
Sorry, Dude, but I believe the spin comes from you. The overwhelming majority of people in Wilmington are listening to Philadelphia radio. Most national advertisers don't buy Wilmington radio because they know they can reach Wilmington through Philadelphia buys. That's reality. If anything, Wilmington should be an embedded market. Like Nassau-Suffolk, Middlesex-Somerset-Union, or San Jose (among others). Reported as part of a market and reported separately. Heck, Wilmington is even "embedded" in the Philadelphia radio board.
I agree with Matt. Wilmington should have its own ratings because it has its own stations. But it should be embedded in the larger market because the larger market's stations also reach there. In that sense it's just like the Nassau-Suffolk market (though that market has many more of its own stations).
I don't have a problem with Wilmington being rated within Philly's ratings as long as Wilmington retains its own market and is rated separately. My point was, as it is NOW, Wilmington IS it's own market, whether you think it should be that way or not is not pertinent. The census bureau DOES consider Wilmington to be it's own metro, but it also does include it in the Philly metro. That is how it is, so that's not spin. It doesn't matter if no one in Wilmington listens to Wilmington radio, Arbitron has Wilmington as a separate market, that's NOT spin, but fact. You may not like that, but it is what it is.
I've heard national ads on WJBR, WSTW, and WXCY so I'd have to disagree with you that no national ads get sold in Wilmington. Those three Wilmington market stations get the lion's share of Wilmington metro listeners so it makes sense that national advertisers would buy time on those three Wilmington market stations as well as Philly stations that get good ratings here.
I've heard national ads on WJBR, WSTW, and WXCY so I'd have to disagree with you that no national ads get sold in Wilmington. Those three Wilmington market stations get the lion's share of Wilmington metro listeners so it makes sense that national advertisers would buy time on those three Wilmington market stations as well as Philly stations that get good ratings here.
MikefromDelaware said:I don't have a problem with Wilmington being rated within Philly's ratings as long as Wilmington retains its own market and is rated separately. My point was, as it is NOW, Wilmington IS it's own market, whether you think it should be that way or not is not pertinent. The census bureau DOES consider Wilmington to be it's own metro, but it also does include it in the Philly metro. That is how it is, so that's not spin. It doesn't matter if no one in Wilmington listens to Wilmington radio, Arbitron has Wilmington as a separate market, that's NOT spin, but fact. You may not like that, but it is what it is.
I've heard national ads on WJBR, WSTW, and WXCY so I'd have to disagree with you that no national ads get sold in Wilmington. Those three Wilmington market stations get the lion's share of Wilmington metro listeners so it makes sense that national advertisers would buy time on those three Wilmington market stations as well as Philly stations that get good ratings here.
Since WJBR has become part of Beasley's Philadelphia market group, it does not really function as a Wilmington station and it's not sold to advertisers as a Wilmington station. They've got their transmitter within 300 yards of the Pennsylvania state line.
Lion's share of Wilmington listener's? With 'JBR, the three stations you mention get a 19.5 per cent audience share. Without 'JBR is 10.9 per cent. The other argument presented for Wilmington being treated as a distinct metro is Delaware has no commercial TV news. I'll set aside the question of whether TV news contributes to a well-informed populace. Delaware does have two daily newspapers. But as far radio news goes, it seems the public isn't interested. The two Wilmington stations doing local news together consistently get an audience share of about five per cent. A much of that is for right-wing talk, not news.
You say it doesn't matter if no one in Wilmington listens to Wilmington radio. It matters to advertisers. BIA figures show Wilmington radio drastically under performing compared to markets of comparable size (but not adjacent to a larger metro). I didn't say no national ads. I did say advertisers realize they can get Wilmington by buying Philly and many do so. When ad budgets are tight, markets like Wilmington get hit hardest.
I looked at both sets of 12+ numbers, Philly's and Wilmington's. WJBR ranks #24 in Philly, with a 1.3 share vs WJBR ranking #1 with a 8.6 in spring and 10.0 share last fall. Beasley may want WJBR to be a Philly station, but I've listened and they don't talk Philly, they talk Wilmington with Wilmington spots, psa, promotions, etc, etc, and their ratings show it. My guess is, that 1.3 share from Philly are those who work in Wilmington and hear JBR at the office as they may not be able to get a Philly station at work and as most offices in the Wilmington area, I've been to, seem to choose as the "safe don't offend anyone station" for the workplace, WJBR rules the FM dial in Wilmington.
Why would someone in Philly choose WJBR over B-101 as they both could be cousins musicwise. B-101 of course talks Philly as they are a Philly station, and WJBR talks Wilmington, because they are.
As WJBR is a "chick station" and gets the largest Wilmington chick audience in Delaware, I'm sure WJBR sells just fine as their audience is exactly what many national advertisers want. Granted, if money is tight and a market has to be cut from a national company's ad budget, sure, they'd cut Wilmington Market #77 way before cutting #8 Philly.
But in spite of what you've argued here and what you believe it should be or desire it to be, the facts are: Wilmington is a recognized metropolitan area by the Federal government; Wilmington is its own radio market, the Wilmington TV market disappeared in the late 1950's and never will return as it is a part of the Philly TV market, and WJBR is a Wilmington COL station that's does sell national accounts and is a Wilmington oriented station even though it can be recieved as a rim shot station in Philly and is owned by a Philly radio group. If their plans were to make WJBR a Philly cash cow, they failed, but I believe they want WJBR to remain as a Wilmington cash cow as they too feeds their bottomline. They are king of the hill in Wilmington and a Philly wannabe in the city of brotherly love.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Why would someone in Philly choose WJBR over B-101 as they both could be cousins musicwise. B-101 of course talks Philly as they are a Philly station, and WJBR talks Wilmington, because they are.
As WJBR is a "chick station" and gets the largest Wilmington chick audience in Delaware, I'm sure WJBR sells just fine as their audience is exactly what many national advertisers want. Granted, if money is tight and a market has to be cut from a national company's ad budget, sure, they'd cut Wilmington Market #77 way before cutting #8 Philly.
But in spite of what you've argued here and what you believe it should be or desire it to be, the facts are: Wilmington is a recognized metropolitan area by the Federal government; Wilmington is its own radio market, the Wilmington TV market disappeared in the late 1950's and never will return as it is a part of the Philly TV market, and WJBR is a Wilmington COL station that's does sell national accounts and is a Wilmington oriented station even though it can be recieved as a rim shot station in Philly and is owned by a Philly radio group. If their plans were to make WJBR a Philly cash cow, they failed, but I believe they want WJBR to remain as a Wilmington cash cow as they too feeds their bottomline. They are king of the hill in Wilmington and a Philly wannabe in the city of brotherly love.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
@MFD: You seem to be saying: Wilmington is a separate market because it is a separate market. Well, sure.
I am saying defining Wilmington as a distinct trading area is not accurate, maybe at one time it was. Maybe it's a result of political pressure on the Census Bureau which defines metro areas. But based on patterns of how and where people live, work, shop, and - more importantly for our purposes - use mass media, Wilmington functions more as an "urban satellite" of Philadelphia and part of a larger Metro area. I'd go further and say the definition of the Wilmington "metro area" is ridiculous in that "Wilmington" also includes Cecil County, Maryland and Salem County, NJ. Cecil County is almost completely oriented to Baltimore; it was once rural and is now part of the Baltimore commuting area. Salem County remains mostly rural but oriented to Philadelphia.
"That's the way it is" may have worked for Uncle Walter, but it's hardly persuasive here. Besides if Wilmington were embedded in the Philadelphia market, Philly would be come the number six market and you could put on your resume that you did a talk show in a top 10 market.
I am saying defining Wilmington as a distinct trading area is not accurate, maybe at one time it was. Maybe it's a result of political pressure on the Census Bureau which defines metro areas. But based on patterns of how and where people live, work, shop, and - more importantly for our purposes - use mass media, Wilmington functions more as an "urban satellite" of Philadelphia and part of a larger Metro area. I'd go further and say the definition of the Wilmington "metro area" is ridiculous in that "Wilmington" also includes Cecil County, Maryland and Salem County, NJ. Cecil County is almost completely oriented to Baltimore; it was once rural and is now part of the Baltimore commuting area. Salem County remains mostly rural but oriented to Philadelphia.
"That's the way it is" may have worked for Uncle Walter, but it's hardly persuasive here. Besides if Wilmington were embedded in the Philadelphia market, Philly would be come the number six market and you could put on your resume that you did a talk show in a top 10 market.
That would be cool to be able to say my talk show was on a top 10 market, rather than market #76 at the time, today #77. Of course WILM can't be heard in most of the Philly radio market area, but hey why get picky, haha !
Cecil County is kind of split as folks there commute in both directions, north towards Wilmington and south towards Baltimore. Many of those folks actually do a lot of their shopping in the Newark/Glasgow area due to the tax free shopping, so they do relate to New Castle County, probably more than they relate to the city of Wilmington. I'd agree with you that yes, Cecil County is Orioles and Raven country far more than it is Wilmington Blue Rocks or Phillies or Eagles country. So in today's world probably the eastern side of Cecil would link with the Wilmington Metro, but not to the degree of the past, but more than Balt, but the western side would certainly identify more with Balt and probably very little with Wilmington or NCC as there are other places closer today to go to shop for that part of their county.
Salem county NJ, which still is a very rural place (actually a very nice place if you can afford the high taxes and horrible property taxes, probably was linked to Wilmington as the ferry connected them directly to Old New Castle, which linked them to the downtown shopping of Wilmington back in the day when downtown Wilmington was an actual destination worth traveling to. Philly was a much further journey so they probably did relate more to Wilmington then than Philly. Today, it is less so, but there are a pile of NJ cars driving in and around the New Castle/ South of Wilmington area for shopping, and employment as it is still a shorter journey to come to NCC than Philly from Salem County NJ. So the link is still there, but I'd agree that people today aren't as locally oriented as in the past. Obviously for TV, Philly is the only game in town, radio probably some listen to Wilmington radio and others, depending on what their ear likes, Philly radio, just as folks on my side of the river do.
I'd also agree that in today's world, especially as most people living in the Wilmington area are NOT locals, but transplants due to DuPont, ICI, Hercules, the gazillion credit card banks here, etc. So they don't have that local loyalty that someone like me, a native born Wilmingtonian would have, so yes, I'd agree that today, probably most see this area as being a part of the greater Philly Metro Area or as a bedroom community to Philly (as our TV, much of our radio, our major sports, and even much of our cultural stuff, plus a more exciting nightlife scene for the young, all comes from Philly) and these folks see as the sub set their home being Wilmington and vicinity, and actually more likely not wanting to claim Wilmington at all, due to the city's failure to be a place anyone would want to be, so most people probably see their home being as the New Castle County area as a subset of the Philly Metro.
Note how the former Wilmington Symphony became the Delaware Symphony, even the Wilmington News Journal dropped the Wilmington from their mast head and is simply the News Journal also they are located in the county outside of the city. None of the radio stations are actually located in Wilmington, other than some of their towers, but their studios are in the county. I'm sure if the FCC didn't have a requirement to say Wilmington in the legal ID, most local stations here would probably opt to not say Wilmington as most of their listeners are suburbanites who don't really identify with the city. So most folks today do relate to New Castle County far more than Wilmington. Wilmington has become basically the postal zone for most folks mail, but not much more. As the largest city in Delaware and the only one with any sort of city skyline, etc, Wilmington by default is the name used to describe our local metro area. Other than suburbanites who work in the city, most suburbanites avoid the city like the plague.
But the powers to be still give this area it's own metro status and own radio market. Now part of that might also be so that each state has its own metro area and have a radio market. As it is, Delaware is the only state that doesn't have it's own real commercial TV station, or any passenger airline service (yet we have the 11th busiest train station in the nation and the shuttle companies serving the Wilmington area via the Philly airport are doing great business. If Wilmington was located where Dover is, we'd probably not be having this discussion as that Wilmington would have it's own TV, and probably more radio, it's own commercial air service, maybe not just a minor league baseball, but minor league football, basketball, hockey; its own metro area that wouldn't be a part of Philly's, etc. Unfortunately, the real Wilmington is so close to Philly that hurt those things.
Matt, my prediction: is that eventually those Dover radio stations will be added to the Wilmington radio market as the actual "Wilmington Metro Area" extends more south to Dover than east-west between Cecil and Salem counties today. There's a far more solid connection between Wilmington and Dover than was in the past.
Delaware is a small place with a small population as compared to all other areas in the Northeast between Boston and Washington. So what little local identity we in New Castle County have can easily get over shadowed by the much larger Philly and Baltimore markets near by. It is what it is.
Cecil County is kind of split as folks there commute in both directions, north towards Wilmington and south towards Baltimore. Many of those folks actually do a lot of their shopping in the Newark/Glasgow area due to the tax free shopping, so they do relate to New Castle County, probably more than they relate to the city of Wilmington. I'd agree with you that yes, Cecil County is Orioles and Raven country far more than it is Wilmington Blue Rocks or Phillies or Eagles country. So in today's world probably the eastern side of Cecil would link with the Wilmington Metro, but not to the degree of the past, but more than Balt, but the western side would certainly identify more with Balt and probably very little with Wilmington or NCC as there are other places closer today to go to shop for that part of their county.
Salem county NJ, which still is a very rural place (actually a very nice place if you can afford the high taxes and horrible property taxes, probably was linked to Wilmington as the ferry connected them directly to Old New Castle, which linked them to the downtown shopping of Wilmington back in the day when downtown Wilmington was an actual destination worth traveling to. Philly was a much further journey so they probably did relate more to Wilmington then than Philly. Today, it is less so, but there are a pile of NJ cars driving in and around the New Castle/ South of Wilmington area for shopping, and employment as it is still a shorter journey to come to NCC than Philly from Salem County NJ. So the link is still there, but I'd agree that people today aren't as locally oriented as in the past. Obviously for TV, Philly is the only game in town, radio probably some listen to Wilmington radio and others, depending on what their ear likes, Philly radio, just as folks on my side of the river do.
I'd also agree that in today's world, especially as most people living in the Wilmington area are NOT locals, but transplants due to DuPont, ICI, Hercules, the gazillion credit card banks here, etc. So they don't have that local loyalty that someone like me, a native born Wilmingtonian would have, so yes, I'd agree that today, probably most see this area as being a part of the greater Philly Metro Area or as a bedroom community to Philly (as our TV, much of our radio, our major sports, and even much of our cultural stuff, plus a more exciting nightlife scene for the young, all comes from Philly) and these folks see as the sub set their home being Wilmington and vicinity, and actually more likely not wanting to claim Wilmington at all, due to the city's failure to be a place anyone would want to be, so most people probably see their home being as the New Castle County area as a subset of the Philly Metro.
Note how the former Wilmington Symphony became the Delaware Symphony, even the Wilmington News Journal dropped the Wilmington from their mast head and is simply the News Journal also they are located in the county outside of the city. None of the radio stations are actually located in Wilmington, other than some of their towers, but their studios are in the county. I'm sure if the FCC didn't have a requirement to say Wilmington in the legal ID, most local stations here would probably opt to not say Wilmington as most of their listeners are suburbanites who don't really identify with the city. So most folks today do relate to New Castle County far more than Wilmington. Wilmington has become basically the postal zone for most folks mail, but not much more. As the largest city in Delaware and the only one with any sort of city skyline, etc, Wilmington by default is the name used to describe our local metro area. Other than suburbanites who work in the city, most suburbanites avoid the city like the plague.
But the powers to be still give this area it's own metro status and own radio market. Now part of that might also be so that each state has its own metro area and have a radio market. As it is, Delaware is the only state that doesn't have it's own real commercial TV station, or any passenger airline service (yet we have the 11th busiest train station in the nation and the shuttle companies serving the Wilmington area via the Philly airport are doing great business. If Wilmington was located where Dover is, we'd probably not be having this discussion as that Wilmington would have it's own TV, and probably more radio, it's own commercial air service, maybe not just a minor league baseball, but minor league football, basketball, hockey; its own metro area that wouldn't be a part of Philly's, etc. Unfortunately, the real Wilmington is so close to Philly that hurt those things.
Matt, my prediction: is that eventually those Dover radio stations will be added to the Wilmington radio market as the actual "Wilmington Metro Area" extends more south to Dover than east-west between Cecil and Salem counties today. There's a far more solid connection between Wilmington and Dover than was in the past.
Delaware is a small place with a small population as compared to all other areas in the Northeast between Boston and Washington. So what little local identity we in New Castle County have can easily get over shadowed by the much larger Philly and Baltimore markets near by. It is what it is.
One correction to my previous post, WJKS 101.7 Urban format and WFAI 1510 Urban Gospel, have their studios on King Street in Downtown Wilmington as the demo they are targeting live predominately there. Their towers are in Salem/Canton NJ as that is their respective COL.
- Status
- This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.