While listening to an internet talk show about radio, the host [george brustar] stated that, "internet radio is the wave of the future and terestrial radio is on the way out". mybe in the land of oz. half the homes in the u.s.a have computers.but everybody has a radio, even the homeless. brustar said that "it's possible to make an internet station a local station". here is the problem with that opinion. first,i don't know how many people in philly own a pc, but the only potential listener is a person that has a computer. not every person has one. what about low income people who can't afford to plunk down hundreds to buy one, they have been checked off as potential listeners. but they have radios. what about people in their cars, people at work, yeah i know, people in offices have pc's, but what about the various positions where the workers don't have access to pc's? checked off as potential listeners. the point is this, not everyone can afford to buy a pc and not everyone at their job has access to a pc. and lets not forget that there are people who can buy one but are not interested in owning one. all the above are checked off as poential listeners. BUT they all own radios. which makes them ALL potential listeners. and lets not forget the people that do own pc's, how many are interested in listening to internet radio? those that are not are checked off as potential listeners. the hard fact is, EVERYONE owns a radio. everyone does not own a pc. this does not bode well for internet radio. and what will happen to internet radio when terestrial radio cleans up it's act, ie, stop giving people homogeneous programing and go back to radio personalities? well, i don't think mr brustar will have to worry about losing his 15 or 20 internet listeners.
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terrestrial radio versus internet radio
- Thread starter doowopvault
- Start date
Why is this on the Philadelphia board and not the Webcasting/Streaming or Radio and the Internet board? I'm sure you'd get more of a response there... mostly refuting all your points. I'm sure if you actually listened to what Brusstar had said, you'd probably understand why these points are so easy to refute.
First off Dennis (doowop), if you'd clean the wax out of your ears and listen to the show, you'd know that George doesn't use the term "internet radio".
As sad as it is, many folks in the industry think the same way that you do. I, for one, find that to be very scary, but I digress. Your argument is so flawed and your thinking so warped that it's not even worth discussing with you. This entire topic is well above your head.
Thanks for being a part of our "15-20 listeners"!!!
[EDIT] All I can say is, WOW!
[EDIT-inflammatory]
As sad as it is, many folks in the industry think the same way that you do. I, for one, find that to be very scary, but I digress. Your argument is so flawed and your thinking so warped that it's not even worth discussing with you. This entire topic is well above your head.
Thanks for being a part of our "15-20 listeners"!!!
[EDIT] All I can say is, WOW!
[EDIT-inflammatory]
doowopvault said:
Let me put this as delicately as possible. If you do not have a computer, then you will be relegated to the left side of the digital divide, as in left out, of access, education, and growth, intellectually, astatically, and more importantly, culturally. And rapidly approaching it will be deemed, if you don’t own a portable protocol internet device, you will clearly, be connectivity deficient, on the far side of the digital divide, listening to terrestrial radio's, 38 Minutes of music every hour, and hourly contests that will hype you out of existence.
Sing it OAK!!! …Those were the day’s my friend…We thought they’d never end…….
R
radiofan2007
Guest
You know what [EDIT] the old school radio peeps I am part of the new school approach meaning we enjoy having our own personality onair and paying for the shows we host so noone can say play the commericals now thank god for 1360am where you are really free radio.
Doing what we want on our show with our best friends and having decent guests like
Scott Graham a friend of mine from working the Phillies games, Tommy Mccarthy another friend from the Phillies games,Kim Douglass all around good woman,Casey another decent woman,Dan Gross i used him for publicity smart move on my part he was stupid enough to write the story,Brian Michael a baseball man,and Jerry Horgan a diehard Phillies fan.
[EDIT-inflammatory]
Doing what we want on our show with our best friends and having decent guests like
Scott Graham a friend of mine from working the Phillies games, Tommy Mccarthy another friend from the Phillies games,Kim Douglass all around good woman,Casey another decent woman,Dan Gross i used him for publicity smart move on my part he was stupid enough to write the story,Brian Michael a baseball man,and Jerry Horgan a diehard Phillies fan.
[EDIT-inflammatory]
L
LocalRadio
Guest
radiofan2007 said:
Real class act, radiofan2007. I just emailed the quote and URL to Mr. Gross so he could see how grateful you were for his kindness.
As for terrestrial in Philadelphia radio versus "Internet Radio," there are good and bad shows on both mediums. I have never heard a good show on WNJC, which has made itself a punch line in a very bad radio joke. Blavat rules and he buys his air time. There are some fine brokered radio hosts in the Philadelphia area. It appears none of them are on WNJC.
The fact that I understood your post through all the misspellings and improper grammar means that I'm ready for that U.N. interpreter’s job.
I for one am amazed at how some posters butcher the English language on these sites, and don't add ANY factual information to the mix. Sam Lit is RIGHT on the mark with his observation. It will be the people with VISION who are experimenting with the next wave of platforms to send out mass messages. While terrestrial radio will be around for quite a long time, and still has amazing penetration, the days of it being the ONLY medium for music and talk and DATA for that matter are SO over. If there should be ANYONE sour on radio, it's me. I can't totally say it's over, but during the next 10 years, expect to see a quantum shift in the way it's delivered. Thanks Sam for bringing intelligence to this forum. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but come to the table with facts and some experience before saying rediculous statements. It seems that there are SO many petty little $^#*-fights going on with this board. This one doesn't like that one, who knows someone who thinks they know better, etc... If we all thought alike, Wibbage would still be on the air on 990. And THAT would make about 1000 people in the Del Val very happy. But it can't be, unless someone reinvents it...for another platform...so be content with the memories. I just wish SOMEone would produce COMPELLING CONTENT on the local radio (terrestrial), whether in talk OR music. Otherwise ALL of local radio as we know it WILL slide down a very long rocky road to extinction. I can help.
E
eyg2181
Guest
no one really listens to internet radio...if someone wants to listen to music on the computer, most people will use their playlist.
eyg2181 said:
bzzt wrong sorry try again
this next generation is so needy for attention and acceptance that they will do whatever they can to stay on top of what's cool so they can be part of the group. hence the recent surge in interest of internet stations, and hence the trend towards "user content-driven" services like Pandora, Last.fm, and the Hype Machine.
www.pandora.com
www.last.fm
www.woxy.com
www.yrockonxpn.org
www.hypem.com
well sam, that all sounds very impressive, but the fact remains unanswered. a huge segment of society can not afford this technology. and the segment that can, well, not all listen to internet radio!!! but everyone listens to terrestrial radio. so sam, tell me how this can change. and as far as "those we're the days" you are right, those we're the days. thats why stations are changing their formats and playing the music from those days. because they know that people love it and there's money in playing it.
Excuse me, DooWopVault -
How many stations have "flipped" (as they call it) to DOO WOP OLDIES? How about NONE!
The reason for these flips is because the current ones airing in a competitive marketplace (which excludes BROKERED RADIO) are not working ... ie: NOT MAKING MONEY for radio stations and their business interests as corporations.
It has nothing to do with "what people want."
Secondly, if you'd pay close attention to the posts here regarding your inane thoughts, you would have already had it handed to you on a silver platter that YOU do an "internet radio" program and must BUY TIME to hold any kind of function in a radio station, let alone a job, which you've not held in this industry whatsoever.
You need to not merely read, but study the industry and its dilemmas before you speak, for you are on the wrong track running in the wrong direction.
To knock anyone when doing the very thing you criticize others for is irresponsibe and reprehensible.
"Buying" play time on poor radio stations just to be on air and to do so on the internet with no revenue whatsoever is, definitely the pot calling the kettle black.
If you and your sidekick only imagined the expense ($$$$) that George Brusstar, Sam Lit, DtotheJ, your's truly and hundreds, if not thousands of others have made in this industry through the years for what return they get, you'd fast reconsider your snarky, ill-informed comments and opinion.
For those who have spoken very clearly and abundantly, be they broadcasters or fans ... you two need to listen to the message and go find a real radio job and quit passing yourself off as what you do. Doing "...what I want" isn't about YOU or any talent. It's merely about what YOU choose to pay to be on the radio. It's about listeners and it's about those willing to PAY YOU for selling their products and merchandise, something neither of you do.
P.S. - It's NOT about "who CAN'T afford" computers ... it's about providing a SERVICE to THOSE WHO DO OWN COMPUTERS. And so far, 75,000,000 a MONTH in this country alone who listen to Internet Radio (source: Arbitron, Edison Research, Bridge Ratings, Paragon Research, various media consultants) can't be all wrong.
It's just "pay for play" for you. That's not broadcastin'.
How many stations have "flipped" (as they call it) to DOO WOP OLDIES? How about NONE!
The reason for these flips is because the current ones airing in a competitive marketplace (which excludes BROKERED RADIO) are not working ... ie: NOT MAKING MONEY for radio stations and their business interests as corporations.
It has nothing to do with "what people want."
Secondly, if you'd pay close attention to the posts here regarding your inane thoughts, you would have already had it handed to you on a silver platter that YOU do an "internet radio" program and must BUY TIME to hold any kind of function in a radio station, let alone a job, which you've not held in this industry whatsoever.
You need to not merely read, but study the industry and its dilemmas before you speak, for you are on the wrong track running in the wrong direction.
To knock anyone when doing the very thing you criticize others for is irresponsibe and reprehensible.
"Buying" play time on poor radio stations just to be on air and to do so on the internet with no revenue whatsoever is, definitely the pot calling the kettle black.
If you and your sidekick only imagined the expense ($$$$) that George Brusstar, Sam Lit, DtotheJ, your's truly and hundreds, if not thousands of others have made in this industry through the years for what return they get, you'd fast reconsider your snarky, ill-informed comments and opinion.
For those who have spoken very clearly and abundantly, be they broadcasters or fans ... you two need to listen to the message and go find a real radio job and quit passing yourself off as what you do. Doing "...what I want" isn't about YOU or any talent. It's merely about what YOU choose to pay to be on the radio. It's about listeners and it's about those willing to PAY YOU for selling their products and merchandise, something neither of you do.
P.S. - It's NOT about "who CAN'T afford" computers ... it's about providing a SERVICE to THOSE WHO DO OWN COMPUTERS. And so far, 75,000,000 a MONTH in this country alone who listen to Internet Radio (source: Arbitron, Edison Research, Bridge Ratings, Paragon Research, various media consultants) can't be all wrong.
It's just "pay for play" for you. That's not broadcastin'.
Here...dispute this:
Fact: Internet advertising dollars (not just for Internet Radio, but the net overall) will surpass that of Radio in 2008. We're talking billions of dollars (in less than 5 years. "Radio just isn't sexy anymore."
Fact: While 98% of the people have radios (even the homeless, we're told in the above post,) Many of those 98% OWN radios, but don't LISTEN anymore at all.
Fact: The number of people listening is declining more and more. Not increasing. Of the 98% of "radio owners" ... a fearful statistic is how many of those people also own or use 1) iPods 2) satellite radio (14-million subscribers who PAY for the chance to hear it every month whether they do or not, 3) Cellphones 4) Text messaging via PDAs 5) computers, 6) television 7) CDs 8) music downloads (legal and illegal) 9) internet radio 10) smart phones with streaming audio (radio.) And this is just "personally owned" -- not "piped-in" listener "environments" in stores, businesses, restaurants, etc.
Fact: Many low income people DO have computers and, certainly, access to them, just like they do for iPods, $200 pairs of Nike's, satellite television, cable tv and ... the Internet. It's now a "must have" appliance, like a cellphone. Radio is not.
Fact: Internet growth today is at over 85 percent of American homes and over 60 percent of broadband connections. People would rather have and "need" the Internet more than radio. Computers can be bought at $400 and less today. Check the latest HP sale at Wal-Mart for instance. Or your favorite Target, Radio Shack, Fry's, Best Buy or Circuit City...or online.
Fact: Radio cannot afford to go back to "radio personalities" like "back in the day." It's all about "the Benjamins" ... not about entertainment. Don't look for Radio to reinvent itself. It can't and it won't. Blame "barter" syndication and conglomeration for that. Oh, and silly "brokerism" radio too.
Fact: As long as "Delilah," is on for five to eight hours a day, Limbaugh and Hannity for four hours each on 600 stations each, Coast-to-Coast with George Noorey for up to 8 hours a day, Imus-in-the-Morning returning, Opie & Anthony falling quicker than flies, stations flipping more today than pancakes, new/talk formats failing on FM and AM, and, of course HYBRID DIGITAL RADIO (you know, that HD thing you thought meant "high definition" but doesn't mean that at all,) Radio is in deep trouble.
Fact: Ever look at the stock market page? Look at the major "conglomerates." Would YOU invest in radio or would you use that money to build the next social networking platform that costs a mere fraction of the cost of outdated and still expensive technology?
Fact: The AM band is already dead and still dying. Ask an 18 year old what "AM" is ... and he/she will likely say, "Uh, another name for morning?"
There. That ought to kill this thread once and for all.
Fact: Internet advertising dollars (not just for Internet Radio, but the net overall) will surpass that of Radio in 2008. We're talking billions of dollars (in less than 5 years. "Radio just isn't sexy anymore."
Fact: While 98% of the people have radios (even the homeless, we're told in the above post,) Many of those 98% OWN radios, but don't LISTEN anymore at all.
Fact: The number of people listening is declining more and more. Not increasing. Of the 98% of "radio owners" ... a fearful statistic is how many of those people also own or use 1) iPods 2) satellite radio (14-million subscribers who PAY for the chance to hear it every month whether they do or not, 3) Cellphones 4) Text messaging via PDAs 5) computers, 6) television 7) CDs 8) music downloads (legal and illegal) 9) internet radio 10) smart phones with streaming audio (radio.) And this is just "personally owned" -- not "piped-in" listener "environments" in stores, businesses, restaurants, etc.
Fact: Many low income people DO have computers and, certainly, access to them, just like they do for iPods, $200 pairs of Nike's, satellite television, cable tv and ... the Internet. It's now a "must have" appliance, like a cellphone. Radio is not.
Fact: Internet growth today is at over 85 percent of American homes and over 60 percent of broadband connections. People would rather have and "need" the Internet more than radio. Computers can be bought at $400 and less today. Check the latest HP sale at Wal-Mart for instance. Or your favorite Target, Radio Shack, Fry's, Best Buy or Circuit City...or online.
Fact: Radio cannot afford to go back to "radio personalities" like "back in the day." It's all about "the Benjamins" ... not about entertainment. Don't look for Radio to reinvent itself. It can't and it won't. Blame "barter" syndication and conglomeration for that. Oh, and silly "brokerism" radio too.
Fact: As long as "Delilah," is on for five to eight hours a day, Limbaugh and Hannity for four hours each on 600 stations each, Coast-to-Coast with George Noorey for up to 8 hours a day, Imus-in-the-Morning returning, Opie & Anthony falling quicker than flies, stations flipping more today than pancakes, new/talk formats failing on FM and AM, and, of course HYBRID DIGITAL RADIO (you know, that HD thing you thought meant "high definition" but doesn't mean that at all,) Radio is in deep trouble.
Fact: Ever look at the stock market page? Look at the major "conglomerates." Would YOU invest in radio or would you use that money to build the next social networking platform that costs a mere fraction of the cost of outdated and still expensive technology?
Fact: The AM band is already dead and still dying. Ask an 18 year old what "AM" is ... and he/she will likely say, "Uh, another name for morning?"
There. That ought to kill this thread once and for all.
8
8638
Guest
bigjay said:
The poorly executed English is a direct result of the dumbing down in public education. I see it daily in written documentation (I work in a hospital) and it is a dangerous trend.
That said, I agree with Sam. Today's webcasters remind me of the FM pioneers of the sixties. For the young'uns reading this, that was back when FM was 'hobby' radio, never going to make a profit, etc. I'm sure some of us remember the underpowered WIBG-FM....RIP. And WTOP in Washington once owned 96.3 FM, which they gave to Howard University for a tax writeoff, with the rationale that "FM will never make money." That station is now known as WHUR-FM, making its namesake plenty of money! For a while there, I bet they wish they'd never given it away! I like internet radio, and listen often, even rigging an FM modulator to 'broadcast' it throughout my home. I love radio, always have, since my first 6 transistor radio as a kid. But radio doesn't love me anymore. I'm a 47 year old man, and "I don't spend money" on rap CD's and 75 buck hoodies.
Terrestrial radio, while available to the masses, isn't terribly interesting to the demographic it caters to. Seems to me the vast majority who even show a remote interest in radio are at least 35, and remember personality based radio, which doesn't exist with regard to music programming today. Talk, another story. Love or hate him, Limbaugh is the ultimate personality, and the savior of AM radio. I am happy for my broadband connection, and the multitude of listening opportunities it affords.
Homerun.
But Limbaugh is not the "savior of AM radio," despite the press releases that say so. The fact that the Clear Channel "Premier" machine and the critical need "then" of AM broadcasters to save economically, be part of a high-powered proven personality that cost less than a local personality and the then "uniqueness" of a Limbaugh led to the saving grace and salvation of AM.
For a time.
Now, Limbaugh has been recycled with the Hannity, Levin, Coast-to-Coast, Dr. Laura, Bortz, Fox, machine that still isn't attractive to half the nation that doesn't believe in the politics or the ideaology of "the right" ... and the failure of "the left" to even become much of a blip on the ratings scope.
Now, the problem is that it seems "everyone" has the "Rush" factor. Stations 25 miles away from each other (as in my market) with a powerful influence from flamethrower signals into this market from 110 miles away in all directions are filled with ... Limbaugh, Hannity, Levin, Coast-to-Coast, Dr. Laura, Ingraham, etc...at the same time, each and every day.
Is it "p-envy?" Everybody has to do it at the same time?
It's lost it's luster and it's not playing well on FM, for sure. Certainly not on HD2 or HD3.
Plus, Rush is only 3 hours. In my market, I hear him daily on a dozen signals, including 3 times from my own market. On top of that, another 6 times from strong out-of-market stations. It's become overkill ... and a bland sameness day in, day out.
A shame when I hear former Clear Channel stations running PSAs and not paying spots in what was "the franchise" a few short years ago. And the cycle is repeated over and over again day and night. In fact, Limbaugh is heard all nights in replays in no fewer than 3 stations clearly heard here in California.
And terrestrial radio keeps chasing the same demo rabbit as you said. Most of what you say is a home run. Good post.
But Limbaugh is not the "savior of AM radio," despite the press releases that say so. The fact that the Clear Channel "Premier" machine and the critical need "then" of AM broadcasters to save economically, be part of a high-powered proven personality that cost less than a local personality and the then "uniqueness" of a Limbaugh led to the saving grace and salvation of AM.
For a time.
Now, Limbaugh has been recycled with the Hannity, Levin, Coast-to-Coast, Dr. Laura, Bortz, Fox, machine that still isn't attractive to half the nation that doesn't believe in the politics or the ideaology of "the right" ... and the failure of "the left" to even become much of a blip on the ratings scope.
Now, the problem is that it seems "everyone" has the "Rush" factor. Stations 25 miles away from each other (as in my market) with a powerful influence from flamethrower signals into this market from 110 miles away in all directions are filled with ... Limbaugh, Hannity, Levin, Coast-to-Coast, Dr. Laura, Ingraham, etc...at the same time, each and every day.
Is it "p-envy?" Everybody has to do it at the same time?
It's lost it's luster and it's not playing well on FM, for sure. Certainly not on HD2 or HD3.
Plus, Rush is only 3 hours. In my market, I hear him daily on a dozen signals, including 3 times from my own market. On top of that, another 6 times from strong out-of-market stations. It's become overkill ... and a bland sameness day in, day out.
A shame when I hear former Clear Channel stations running PSAs and not paying spots in what was "the franchise" a few short years ago. And the cycle is repeated over and over again day and night. In fact, Limbaugh is heard all nights in replays in no fewer than 3 stations clearly heard here in California.
And terrestrial radio keeps chasing the same demo rabbit as you said. Most of what you say is a home run. Good post.
You are all missing an important point.
All of the major media outlets that.....
Have broadcast stations
Have high profile internet streams
Have some other means of streaming content
Are all owned, in most cases, by publicly held companies.
Whether their content is homogenized, good, or bad, is insignificant
They have the means to promote it, if they wish to budget the dollars to do so.
Anyone else can start their own webstream, from their basement. Good Luck
So then they can begin to use "Word of Mouth".."Word of Blog" , "Myspace" whatever, to get the word out their "content" is there. Call it "Pajamas broadcasters".
Problem is, it is still hard to make something stick.
Someone in their pajamas, will eventually get bored.
And if the for-profit company can't make a profit on something in a reasonable amount of quarters , they'll do something else.
Meanwhile, Radio remains cheap, easily available, easy to use.
The broadcaster hopes they will be found, otherwise they (Gulp) might have to spend money and market their product. maybe that is what they will do. Maybe they wont.
Radio has an advantage, Almost everyone has a radio. It would seem a small effort to a potential listener to coax them into turning it on.
The wave is returning to "localism". This is what will make radio relevent again. It won't happen overnight, but it will. Once Wall St really gets bored of radio, the market force will either insist that broadcast owners do something different, or sell their stations to someone that will.
The scary part, is that it'll probably be a religious outfit that buys it.
AM all but dead? I think not. What radio station was left standing after Katrina? An "AM" station.
In a civil emergency, earthquake, hurricane, etc, forget your cellphone, maybe even your landline. They'll be useless. Ah, and your cable will be out. Forget your favorite Internet station. Maybe your satellite radio will continue to work, with it's dozens of channels playing some music format you like, but that's about it for that. Meanwhile the world around you is crumbling. Chances are your local AM or FM station, is your only lifeline.
The news of the demise of terrestrial radio, is exaggerated. If the free market allows it to die, now that would be a shame.
All of the major media outlets that.....
Have broadcast stations
Have high profile internet streams
Have some other means of streaming content
Are all owned, in most cases, by publicly held companies.
Whether their content is homogenized, good, or bad, is insignificant
They have the means to promote it, if they wish to budget the dollars to do so.
Anyone else can start their own webstream, from their basement. Good Luck
So then they can begin to use "Word of Mouth".."Word of Blog" , "Myspace" whatever, to get the word out their "content" is there. Call it "Pajamas broadcasters".
Problem is, it is still hard to make something stick.
Someone in their pajamas, will eventually get bored.
And if the for-profit company can't make a profit on something in a reasonable amount of quarters , they'll do something else.
Meanwhile, Radio remains cheap, easily available, easy to use.
The broadcaster hopes they will be found, otherwise they (Gulp) might have to spend money and market their product. maybe that is what they will do. Maybe they wont.
Radio has an advantage, Almost everyone has a radio. It would seem a small effort to a potential listener to coax them into turning it on.
The wave is returning to "localism". This is what will make radio relevent again. It won't happen overnight, but it will. Once Wall St really gets bored of radio, the market force will either insist that broadcast owners do something different, or sell their stations to someone that will.
The scary part, is that it'll probably be a religious outfit that buys it.
AM all but dead? I think not. What radio station was left standing after Katrina? An "AM" station.
In a civil emergency, earthquake, hurricane, etc, forget your cellphone, maybe even your landline. They'll be useless. Ah, and your cable will be out. Forget your favorite Internet station. Maybe your satellite radio will continue to work, with it's dozens of channels playing some music format you like, but that's about it for that. Meanwhile the world around you is crumbling. Chances are your local AM or FM station, is your only lifeline.
The news of the demise of terrestrial radio, is exaggerated. If the free market allows it to die, now that would be a shame.
Thank you tcp, well said.
- Status