terrestrial radio versus internet radio

[qtpieislit]

The broadcaster hopes they will be found, otherwise they (Gulp) might have to spend money and market their product. maybe that is what they will do. Maybe they wont.
Radio has an advantage, Almost everyone has a radio. It would seem a small effort to a potential listener to coax them into turning it on.
AM all but dead? I think not. What radio station was left standing after Katrina? An "AM" station.
In a civil emergency, earthquake, hurricane, etc, forget your cellphone, maybe even your landline. They'll be useless. Ah, and your cable will be out. Forget your favorite Internet station. Maybe your satellite radio will continue to work, with it's dozens of channels playing some music format you like, but that's about it for that. Meanwhile the world around you is crumbling. Chances are your local AM or FM station, is your only lifeline.

So, what you are saying is that radio should be praying in waiting for catastrophic events as a business model? That should be an interesting sell to stockholders in the mega debt laden conglomo’s, with strategic planning that is nothing short of glacier. Clear Channel stock anyone? Or does the game of dominos scare you.

 

[amfmsw]

Dear Mr. Oak,

You've made this argument many times, but again, you write "Fact:", but give no source, No concrete research, just opinion.

If you did research, you'd see that conventional, terrestrial radio listening is down a whole 4% over 20 years according to 2006 statistics released by Arbitron and RAB. Newspapers are the mass communication in trouble, down 2.6% in just the past 6 months. Radio is healthy, and internt radio, GOOD internet radio, will make it compete, as it always has. Competition is good! I listen to net radio, and radio on the net. But as much as I enjoy hylit.com, it doesn't play well in my car.

And please, including texting as a diversion to listening? That's really exaggerating.

I don't know your age, but there were alternatives to radio before the net, ipods, satellite/cable radio and tv. There were more 45 rpm record players made and sold than Ipods, but America did not stop listening. It simply shifted it's listening habits form record players and walkmans to another format. Cell phones are for conversation, although many do play a small library of fuzzy, grainy mp3 files with poor amplifiers and dreadful D/A converters. They're toys.

Just as there was a time and place for listening to records, and watching TV, there's still a time for AM/FM radio.

 

[oaktree]

Since the immediate past poster doesn't understand, just look at how Clear Channel botched things up so bad in an "emergency" that, now, the FCC is fixing to load more regulations for "full time operators" of all sizes in all markets. That's a good sign. Also, thank CC and others for doing away with "local news." Even CBS in Philadelphia has dropped morning news, traffic and weather.

Talk about "dumbing down."

You guys need to understand a little bit more about the medium. The last poster needs a library of knowledge. The one before him has the right idea, but we can't sit around waiting for the next "lifeline" incident to happen. It's what's in between that counts.

Incidentally, WWL was NOT the only station remaining on the air in New Orleans after Katrina. Thank Entercom and their still operating facilities for simulcasting, which they did...admirably.

 

[doowopvault]

In reading the various exchanges, I can't help but to recount past comments people have made regarding my threads. when I said how corporate america has screwed up radio, I was told by various people on the boards that I was putting forward a " conspiracy theory" now, those very people are saying the same thing!! as far as the state of radio, I have always said, If you want the B sides, the album cuts, the obscure goups, then you have to listen to INDEPENDENT DJ'S. thats right gang, you know who you are. every friday night you mock people that broker radio time. the host said that It amounts to "an expensive hobby" well folks, If listening to radio is a "hobby" or a past time, then having to spend hundreds to purchase a computer, a monthly bill for an isp amounts to an expensive hobby or past time when all one has to do is plunk down five or ten bucks for a radio, with no monthly bill to boot.the very person that made that comment also brokers time, only from a server for an internet station. there are DJ'S that are on radio and the internet that broker there time or have worked out a sydication deal. some are "cool bobby B who is on ten stations plus internet, and king arthur. both are doing fine in the business brokering their time. or as burstar said once "they are not in the business" if you broker your time. the fact is, radio is cheap and accessible to everyone. internet radio is not if you are poor, low income, homeless or at work. sure, radio today is basically crap. if you love rap, I guess there is no complaints. if you love oldies, I mean REAL oldies, there are independent DJ'S who broker their time that play great cuts on stations such as WRDV, WNJC,WRSU,WVLT, WWZK in wildwood,WRAW in reading. they are accessible to all. radio is not dead, It just smells kind of funny.

 

[qtpieislit]

But as much as I enjoy hylit.com, it doesn't play well in my car.

May I suggest you try a TREO 750, portable internet protocol device, on the Sprint or Verizon network. Then, you’re on the go with the Hy Lit show. In your car, here, there, and everywhere.**


** footnote: Avoid AT&T/Cingular broadband service. Outside of Philly, AT&T broadband internet connectivity is intermittent, at best, and as such causes excessive rebuffering when mobile.

 

[oaktree]

Mr. AMFMSW -

To not get into a flame, here, and I respect your opinion, but your two sources are, at best, flawed (Arbitron & RAB) and second, more propaganda than fact.

Rather than go through an extensive and well-researched list of corporations (losing stock investments as we speak,) readily-available statistics from leading market research groups and firms and others to extensive to name, as well as leading names in consulting, advertising and broadcasting itself, why not do this ... understand just what it is you'd EXPECT RAB, NAB (broadcast trade organizations) and Arbitron (in fluff piece press releases as ambiguous as saying that "12+ numbers justify standing in a market -- numbers so worthless, they give them away for free ...) why not show us proof of disputing my "facts" (not mere opinions, though I am in the business as see things going on everyday.)

I can show you plenty of posts where people in the business, not merely in the know, not only agree with these "facts," but who stand by them, so, to be fair, dispute these and I have an open mind to your rebuttal. But I can tell you that your look is a bit rose-tinted. And that is said respectfully. I have investment on the line for the success of the medium, but I can tell you firsthand, it's not an easy, rosey, road out there.

And what "was" 30 years ago is nothing compared to "what is" today. That's a bit Pollyanish, in my "opinion," though I respect yours.

Radio is NOT "growing an audience" ... and hasn't in years. Ever year of decline adds up ... and it has. Where is the radio audience going? Not to other stations, that's for sure. The younger demos hate radio, and, in fact, most don't even know what half of the terrestrial broadcast model -- AM Radio -- is. I think you know that...or you're under a rock. Show me a multitude of 18-24 year olds who flock to AM radio ...

Times have changed. Radio, unfortunately, hasn't.

And to you, DooWopVault, no one disrespects your right to pollute the radio landscape with boring, unprofessional, ridiculous, non-productive money making "play for pay" brokered programming. But any sensible person would surely ask, "Why am I doing this?" when spending great sums to buy time on poor, non-rated, no-audience radio stations, be they terrestrial or online.

The bigger question is, "How do YOU make money doing so?" Jerry Blavet can and has for 40 years. You're not even at the turnstiles at that ball park. If you can make money for your investment with even one sponsor, you call that "Radio?"

It's not about what YOU enjoy, it's about what you do to sell an audience your programming. For that, your return goes into the bank ... even just a little ... not merely flying out of it to sooth your ego gratification. That's what makes "brokerism" radio like yours so bad, and such a joke, on far too many radio stations today. Owners have not desire or care but to take your cash.

That's your right, but certainly not the way to make a buck for you.

 

[DG02816]

Oaktree has my vote on this one. There is good brokered radio and there is bad brokered stuff where all the managemnt wants to do is haul in the $$ by any way possible.Epitome of bad radio-brolered or otherwise-was the 990 in Providence, WALE. Owner there tried to exaggerate audience claims and coveage area. He eneded up bankrupt.True, the people buying the airtime have to try to sell what they're doing to their intended audience. But the owners also have to play it straight, no chaser, and be honest about their facility's coverage area and other things.It's due to the happy horse manure $ales$whoring that I see that's made me so such a dim outlook on the business at present.

 

[oaktree]

You live in the past ... you become a part -- and victim -- of it while the greater majority of the masses move forward. If that's not "fact," then why aren't major broadcasters with a lot more at stake than you or me not reverting back to "doo wop records," or why hasn't Bill Drake been dragged out of retirement to revitalize "Boss 30" radio and why aren't the "cutting edge" talkers falling like flies in supposedly "new youth demographics" they were designed for?

Don't live in the past lest you become part of it. Or you're a hobbyist, not a broadcaster...especially if the only way you can get into it is buy your way.

There's a reason for "brokered radio." Doing it as ego-gratification isn't "serving the public need and interest." Start an Internet station and play all you want. Don't help poor operators making poorer examples of their sorry radio stations on the cheap ... like you do.

 

[doowopvault]

There is the old saying folks, It's what you make of It. I had 7 sponsors on URD. and worked damn hard acquiring them. there is good brokered radio and bad. there is good corporate radio and bad. It's all what you make of It. If the owner or the host don't care about quality It will show. I don't care how many watts is pouring out of the transmitter.

 

[oaktree]

So, why aren't you doing it now if you were so successful.

Because you have 1) no product to sell of worth to a radio station (I've heard your rants,) 2) have no money to buy time on WNJC and 3) have no talent.

You are not on WURD now, because? There are other "brokered" opportunities. Why this silly whining...when you need to go on the air and prove your worth, value and talent.

The question remains...why aren't you, Dennis? I fear that you and dozens of others here know the answer(s) why. If you are that good, you'd do it ... and show your stuff or, you'd get a legitimate job in broadcasting like so many before you.

 

[doowopvault]

Why I'm not on the air now? 1-I lost my equipment in a fire, which you know. 3-waiting for the insurance to send a check to buy new equipment and 3-with that money, open my own station in south philly. oooooooooooh yeah, It would be a badge of honor working for a station being told what to play, playing the same songs over and over and over by station owners that know nothing about music. I would NEVER work for a corporate station. I don't care HOW much money the would pay. and It isn't just me. ask any DJ playing the real oldie on the internet or who is brokering time. they wILL all say the same thing," they would never work in a station and be told what to play.they all say" I play what I want" It's called freedom. I will never goose step to any station owners tune. I'm not a broadcasting prostitute.

 

[DG02816]

And THAT,my friends, is the formula for being a corporate misfit....such a shame.

 

[amfmsw]

Oakie,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I stand by my numbers.

However, I fully agree with you that the industry has been dumbed down. Cookie Cutter programmimg has killed localism. Out of market owners who never talk to their empoyees rarely will find out what their listeners and community wants or needs. It is tragic to oldtimers like me, but not the death of radio. Your point is that the industry is a mess. In general, I agree.

Our difference is that I see shining examples of local medium and small market stations that are fat, profitable, and healthy...and work with the community they serve. AM & FM. I cannot say the same for most Major Markets today. But, my friend, it's not dead.

It is exactly correct that so many stations in LA's Katrina disaster should be ashamed for being so unprepared. Again, absentee ownership.

And holy smokes Sam, I'm not that advanced. Hell, I still listen to SW! My stereo is Marantz and McIntosh..and it's all tubes! Except the AM tuner, as it's a Long Island made Fisher wideband tube unit. It's the one I listened to Dad on because it could pull in WIBG crystal clear.

 

[oaktree]

I respect you standing by your numbers, as I stand behind each and every one of my facts. We agree to disagree. I can show you countless stations who were saved from bankruptcy going back a decade by the, then, mighty checkbook of Clear Channel and others who "bailed" them out.

However, standing behind numbers from two sources doesn't make them right, with the agendas the two organizations have that you mentioned, when you just do the research as I have ... starting with the stock page. How many corporate broadcasters lost money ... millions of dollars ... in the last quarter? All of them from the biggest on down. In ALL sized markets - Major to minor. (I happen to be one in a small/medium market and saw it right before my eyes.)

How many format "flips" are going on in this quarter ... and not merely to "Christmas music" early? More than any other year in memory.

Why are radio stations like Clear Channel ... still the biggest ... laying off entire staffs of people when things aren't going so well?

Why aren't radio audiences growing ... instead of declining? Why are alleged "youth oriented and dominated" formats like Free FM, Man Talk, Liberal Talk and other formats (ask broadcasters in New York, especially the urban ones) finding out that there is huge change in the radio marketplace?

Why are major advertising agencies declaring publically, as noted as recently as a month ago, that "radio just isn't sexy anymore" and that billings and revenues are at, now, a "critical stage" and a continued flatness of those numbers will mean major changes in 2008?

Why is there such an influx of buying new devices and social-network platforms? (and, yes, radio hasn't caught on to the text messaging phenomena as they should,) yet ... and probably won't.

Why are the number of computer sales continuing to be so great, while HD Radio sales and radios sales in general so flat? (It's online, check it out.)

Why is it that computers and not just Internet, but broadband DSL and wireless, as well as Bluetooth technology now "must haves" across all demographic and economic strata? (Check it out, again, online ... or just stand in line at your neighborhood Wal-Mart, Circuit City, Staples, Office Max, Target, Fry's, Radio Shack, etc. to see why.) The technology is getting lots cheaper and is much more "wanted" than AM radio ... especially, let alone FM. Younger demos hate radio and don't know half of it ... AM, period.

Tell me that you don't believe that for the last 20 years that FM listening has captured 80 percent of the audience ... and that the remaining 20 percent is NOT AM listening ... but other forms of "media communication" (not counting how many of the 80 percent rely more on iPods, satellite radio, Internet radio, cellphones, smart phones and more.)

Why is it that as baby boomers get older by the day ... the numbers for FM keep rising, but the total audience share for "radio" doesn't ... when comparing AM & FM?

You hit me as being a reasonable person and I appreciate your kind and probing post. But let's keep thinking here and not let the propaganda by the NAB and RAB (an advertising trade organization, incidentally ... not dealing with "ratings" or station performance at all) cloud sound "business" thinking. Anything else is a desperate attempt to pacify broadcasters into thinking that "things are just fine."

Finally, there are plenty of places with blogs galore (I recommend Jerry Del Colliano's 'Inside Music Media' as must reading,) that tell the story of the most recent NAB "Show" in Charlotte almost two months ago. Or, go to MelTaylor.com and look at what his thoughts were on that confab.

The broadcast community is hurting. Big time. And this isn't 1970, as much as we might wish. And coming from that era in major and medium markets, I can tell you first hand ... the landscape is moving and moving quickly in 2007. Opie & Anthony, Delilah and Free FM aren't stopping the dam from leaking. Holes are springing up every day. Ask Wall Street investors as a start.

 

[Starbucks]

I have to say it, among Oak, Sam, AM/FM/SW...you guys are good. I don't know much of a raw nerve you have to hit to get into someones mind that still lives in 1985 or before. Sometimes it's a shame when someone can't get out of it. It's also comical when you read, hear or listen to these Paul Walkers, that guy on brokered 1360 and a few others, that want to get into a career that was exciting to get into in the 60's - 80's , but end up doing nothing but exposing, and exploiting themselves into embarrasment. Especially into a career that's already or practically over before they start. It's almost like watching a Bette Davis and Joan Crawford movie 'Whatever Happened to Baby Jane".
I'm having trouble staying on the Internet with the DCMA S**t that gives problems with me staying on and listed automatically. Let alone make it on a milliwatt AM station. And there going to make it big with low power AM. Let alone the RIAA on the prowl for these type of operations.
What's scary is I once applied to an opening as far as Titled sales job "Work for the Music Industry". That position was exactly what I just described. Prowl around the clubs, monitor signals, Hit the Levis gap or dress stores and shopping centers who are exposing music publicly, and then hit them with a Tab...just like an IRS tax man.
Yes it's been done before, people making some bucks on a watt signal, AM or FM but there's ballplayers that made it to major league teams that came out of prison. One in a million. say.
And they think they have a future with a .7 watt AM transmitter. it's really sad. For this guy who wants to hit it big with a doo-wop show...I love Doo Wop , but the 50's on Five XM radio does one better. Plus there's tons or many of them on Internet. We been through this already. Quit inventing the wheel. The Facts that Oak gave you should be discouraging enough.

 

[oaktree]

Thanks, Starbucks... Believe me, I'm trying. I appreciate your post.

 

[doowopvault]

OK I give in!!!!! lets all start playing hip hop and rap. why? It's POPULAR. not because It's what you love, because It's whats POPULAR. you see, It's this type of thinking, together with the influence of the big record lables over corporate radio that brought on the demise of radio. people refuse to see the point, I would rather play to a very small number the music I love, and believe me, the people can tell the difference if the DJ is having a good time, than to play the crap above just to work at some 50,000 watt station. the question is, do you want to play the music that you love, or, you just don't care what music you play, as long as you have the opportunity to sit behind a mic and press buttons and say"I'm in the business" on a side note, doo wop is bigger than you think!!! but you would not know that If you don't attend the concerts, which are always sold out!! receive the mags and news letters. It's sad when when people change their taste as offten as they change their underwear. why, they just follow what is popular. If people want to live their life having corporate america choose what to listen to and wear, hey, your the mice and they have the flute.

 

[amfmsw]

Oak...I don't even know where to begin. You're 80/20 opinion is just, well, strange.

The "growth" of boomer listening will never grow. There are no new boomers being born. It is what it is. How can "share" possibly grow?

I stand by my numbers as the agenda of the ABC, Audit Bureau Of Circulation, says in the top 20 cities, newspaper circulation is down 2.6% nationwide. Arbitron has no agenda other than repoting audience size, and market share. Share of all stations is down 4% over 20 years. Satellite? Loudmouth Howard Stern has a smaller cume nationwide with his Satcast than he had on WYSP/WJSE alone! Source: Arbitron

Why does computer sales mean they're being purchased to listen to net radio? That's quite an assupmtion. What does Bluetooth have to do with terestrial radio?

What does text messaging have to do with commercial radio? Ad agencies? Most are as bad as the consultants that really ruined radio.

Look, I could go on and on. I'll never win this arguement, it's like discussing programming 350 songs vs 2000 songs with Dave Eduardo.

Here's my final thought. Radio is healthy. Radio needs fewer consultants. Radio needs more local owners. LPFM will help if not abused by religious taliban, offering more choice.

In closing, respectfully, have a source to back up your arguments, otherwise it's just opinion. Opinions are fine, but not facts. It's my opinion that some here seem to have an axe to grind against commercial radio. Opinions are like elbows...everyone has two. My other opinion is that there seems to be an anti-radio agenda. No source, no facts, just opinion. I work in commercial radio, and although there are markets and companies with troubles, and it's not perfect, the industry is HEALTHY, and not on it's deathbed, as you pontificate.

 

[oaktree]

OK. How about Katz Radio (Do you know who they are?) How about Eastman Radio? Interep? Did you bother to look up stuff on your own as suggested? Did you look up Jerry Del Colliano's blog at www.insidemusicmedia.com? How about other boards here like "The Business of Radio?" Are you just turning a blind eye?

Remember, "Denial is not a river in Egypt."

And you don't believe the 80/20 fact between FM & AM? Are you IN radio in a competitive market? Have you ever sold radio advertising of late? How about reading trade publications? Tom Taylor's is among the best. Inside Radio? R&R? Radio Ink? Do you read or do you just go along with what you thing rather than open yourself up to other facts and opinions? Or, are you just waiting for others do to the homework for you?

Also, if you think ABC Audits are right, let me tell you, you're barking up the wrong tree. Newspaper circulation is more than an average gain/loss ... look at individual markets where newspapers are dying ... like radio is. Even the NYTimes admits it will be out of print and onto online within five years.

You don't believe that millions of dollars are being lost DAILY by major radio companies? Do you do any research and read the facts about what's happening in the "business" with Citdel down (and they just bought ABC a quarter ago,) Clear Channel LOSING deals for hundreds of station because the bucks just aren't there, etc.

And Stern left terrestrial radio because, audience and all, it was "dead." How did he replace those numbers on satellite? You're right ...he didn't. I guess you think that O&A and Free FM will still work "if given a chance." And, incidentally, Arbitron DOES have an agenda, as one who reads them nearly every day. Why do you think they give away 12+ numbers and report "decreases" in that "all for nothing" demo? Because no one pays attention to them, that's why. They're meaningless. Look at the losses in 18-24 year old males before you make judgements that you don't seem well versed.

And you're right about boomers. So when the boomers are gone and the up-and-coming generation that hates radio hangs to other media forms, THEN what do YOU propose will happen to radio? Incidentally, boomers are the next to die off and they are doing so everyday. I'd love to here your philosophy on AM Radio, too So, as "boomers" die off in the next 20 years, who the heck do you think is going to replace them? People who grew up with AM? Poor choices on repetitive FM? Come on...I have more faith in your judgement than that. Or should I?

And what do you think what's making radio such a hot commodity? What formats? You've not once shown one example of why radio is in the shape it's in. Where are your named successes about the shape of the business ... which, incidentally, is 9 percent down this past month across the board. NINE percent. The upscale ... "alterntive media" ... the Internet, up ... NINE percent. So, come on, don't be an apologist for radio's dismal performance.

Do your homework and report back to us what YOU'VE found something, anything, about the glowing growth and success of radio. I, for one, would love to see what you come up. Sure beats hearing about doo wop records on a 100mw AM, I'll tell ya.

 

[qtpieislit]

Denile? Isn’t that near the Perkiomen creek basin? Yea, I once canoed there and picked up a 100 mw station for two seconds.