The Decline of Infinity New York

[Smoke]

Opie and Anthony have been ranting (a little too much) lately on their years at Infinity Radio. However, if anyone should be blaming Howard and Mel K for anything, it should be for not standing up for the shareholders' intrests over Stern's demands and putting O&A on K-Rock instead of slowly turning WNEW into Hot Talk.

Had they had:
Stern in the morning
Leslie Gold middays (or whoever)
O&A in the afternoons
Ron and Fez @ Night
K-Rock would have been able to survive and even thrive without Howard.

Instead, they intentionally crippled WNEW for years because Stern (alledgedly) had a clause in his contract that prevented Infinity from competing against him for "his demographic." So WXRK and WNEW were still fighting for the same listeners but without a larger strategy, and left both stations so weak that losing the biggest star on each destroys them.

Not to mention in the process they destroyed WNEW's heritage status of being "The Rock of New York." Granted rock radio has been in decline for years, esp. in NYC, but even WNEW's worst days as a rock station (pre-O&A) were better than anything they've tried on it post-O&A.

At some point Q104 flipped to classic rock and have been successful with that, even attempting to get some younger listeners with Leslie Gold. She was a good co-host in Boston when she wasn't trying to be the female Stern.

Infinity could have had 3 strong stations in New York:
WXRK - Hot Talk - Young men demo, very lucritive.
WNEW - Classic Rock - Could have moved younger with newer music added in.
WCBS-FM - Oldies - A steady money earner.

Granted Mel K left before they destroyed another heritage station but like WNEW pre-O&A, it was still making more than it is as the format-of-the-year Jack FM.

So instead Infinity now has:
WXRK - Going to Hot Talk in Jan. with the unproven David Lee Roth and other lesser known hosts. Ratings will tank without Stern regardless of format.
WNEW - Blink failed, but we got some humor out of Frankie Blue, but after years of tweaking and retweaking the station isn't a success.
WCBS-FM - Went from 11th to 20th or so.

In other words, Infinity New York has nothing good on it's FM stations, even as it's AM stations do well. That's not a legacy to be proud of for Mel K or Stern.

 

[lalumia]

> Opie and Anthony have been ranting (a little too much)
> lately on their years at Infinity Radio. However, if anyone
> should be blaming Howard and Mel K for anything, it should
> be for not standing up for the shareholders' intrests over
> Stern's demands and putting O&A on K-Rock instead of slowly
> turning WNEW into Hot Talk.
>
> Had they had:
> Stern in the morning
> Leslie Gold middays (or whoever)
> O&A in the afternoons
> Ron and Fez @ Night
> K-Rock would have been able to survive and even thrive
> without Howard.
>
> Instead, they intentionally crippled WNEW for years because
> Stern (alledgedly) had a clause in his contract that
> prevented Infinity from competing against him for "his
> demographic." So WXRK and WNEW were still fighting for the
> same listeners but without a larger strategy, and left both
> stations so weak that losing the biggest star on each
> destroys them.
>
> Not to mention in the process they destroyed WNEW's heritage
> status of being "The Rock of New York." Granted rock radio
> has been in decline for years, esp. in NYC, but even WNEW's
> worst days as a rock station (pre-O&A) were better than
> anything they've tried on it post-O&A.
>
> At some point Q104 flipped to classic rock and have been
> successful with that, even attempting to get some younger
> listeners with Leslie Gold. She was a good co-host in
> Boston when she wasn't trying to be the female Stern.
>
> Infinity could have had 3 strong stations in New York:
> WXRK - Hot Talk - Young men demo, very lucritive.
> WNEW - Classic Rock - Could have moved younger with newer
> music added in.
> WCBS-FM - Oldies - A steady money earner.
>
> Granted Mel K left before they destroyed another heritage
> station but like WNEW pre-O&A, it was still making more than
> it is as the format-of-the-year Jack FM.
>
> So instead Infinity now has:
> WXRK - Going to Hot Talk in Jan. with the unproven David Lee
> Roth and other lesser known hosts. Ratings will tank
> without Stern regardless of format.
> WNEW - Blink failed, but we got some humor out of Frankie
> Blue, but after years of tweaking and retweaking the station
> isn't a success.
> WCBS-FM - Went from 11th to 20th or so.
>
> In other words, Infinity New York has nothing good on it's
> FM stations, even as it's AM stations do well. That's not a
> legacy to be proud of for Mel K or Stern.
>
Actually, before they dumped the 60s ,the "Lost Oldies" and all the good stuff, CBS-FM was a Top Ten, sometimes Top 5 station!

 

[DiamondJoe]

> So instead Infinity now has: ...
> WNEW - Blink failed, but we got some humor out of Frankie
> Blue, but after years of tweaking and retweaking the station
> isn't a success.

In all fairness, the station's 12+ have risen nearly a full point over the last year. They've went from having half of WKTU's ratings a year ago, to being somewhat of a threat to them.<P ID="signature">______________


New York City Radio and TV</P>

 

[davideduardo]

> >
> Actually, before they dumped the 60s ,the "Lost Oldies" and
> all the good stuff, CBS-FM was a Top Ten, sometimes Top 5
> station!
>

But, in the last 5 to 7 years, its 25-54 audience was falling out of the top 10, and the station was becoming irrelevant to advertisers. While the maket grew about 15% in revenues the last 5 years, WCBS FM was off about 20%. Combined, in real market dollars, that is like bieng off by 40% compared to your peers.

 

[lalumia]

> > >
> > Actually, before they dumped the 60s ,the "Lost Oldies"
> and
> > all the good stuff, CBS-FM was a Top Ten, sometimes Top 5
> > station!
> >
>
> But, in the last 5 to 7 years, its 25-54 audience was
> falling out of the top 10, and the station was becoming
> irrelevant to advertisers. While the maket grew about 15% in
> revenues the last 5 years, WCBS FM was off about 20%.
> Combined, in real market dollars, that is like bieng off by
> 40% compared to your peers.
>
Because in the last 5 to 7 years, they were in a rush to dump all their selling points, the 50s, doo wop, the 60s, the lost oldies; THAT product WORKED! If you CHANGE the product based on claims that the senile audience has been buried and now it's time to play Air Supply and Olivia Newton John cos some consultant thinks it makes logical sense(the music business has NEVER been about logic or sense),well, don't claim that the station lost the audience; the station CHASED AWAY the audience.

 

[Mouth1390]

> > > >
> > > Actually, before they dumped the 60s ,the "Lost Oldies"
> > and
> > > all the good stuff, CBS-FM was a Top Ten, sometimes Top
> 5
> > > station!
> > >
> >
> > But, in the last 5 to 7 years, its 25-54 audience was
> > falling out of the top 10, and the station was becoming
> > irrelevant to advertisers. While the maket grew about 15%
> in
> > revenues the last 5 years, WCBS FM was off about 20%.
> > Combined, in real market dollars, that is like bieng off
> by
> > 40% compared to your peers.
> >
> Because in the last 5 to 7 years, they were in a rush to
> dump all their selling points, the 50s, doo wop, the 60s,
> the lost oldies; THAT product WORKED! If you CHANGE the
> product based on claims that the senile audience has been
> buried and now it's time to play Air Supply and Olivia
> Newton John cos some consultant thinks it makes logical
> sense(the music business has NEVER been about logic or
> sense),well, don't claim that the station lost the audience;
> the station CHASED AWAY the audience.
>
Jim, as much as I enjoy oldies and as much as I like institutions like WCBS-FM and the old WNEW 1130. . .David is right. Oldies is a format that is more likely to work financially in a market that is less dependent upon ratings. In other words, New York City radio and FM in particular relies heavily upon advertising agency business. You can point out all the positives of the mature listener like (a)most disposable income, (b) willingness to indulge, (c) shopping for wants rather than needs and (d)a growing cell of the population, but the buyers just don't want to hear it.

In my opinion, and I think David would agree, oldies works on AM radio stations where the sales come primarily from local, direct advertisers. Oldies needs to have access to the decision maker directly to make the case and succeed. Look at Entercom with KB Radio 1520. They are succeeding, in spite of low ratings, because they are able to deal direct with the business owners.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: The reality of older demos... unsalable.

> Because in the last 5 to 7 years, they were in a rush to
> dump all their selling points, the 50s, doo wop, the 60s,
> the lost oldies; THAT product WORKED! If you CHANGE the
> product based on claims that the senile audience has been
> buried and now it's time to play Air Supply and Olivia
> Newton John cos some consultant thinks it makes logical
> sense(the music business has NEVER been about logic or
> sense),well, don't claim that the station lost the audience;
> the station CHASED AWAY the audience.
>

In the last 7 or so years, the bulk of the audience passed into the 55+ demo. Music from pre-1965, and do-wop especially, has pretty near zero appeal to under 55's since they were not old enough or were not even born in the era of that music.

This has NOTHING to do with consultants. It does not take an intellectual to tell you that to have been over 15 in 1965, you are you are 55 years old now. It has everything to do with how agencies and advertisers buy radio. Pre-1955 songs attract nearly 100% over 55 year old listeners.

The station intentionally chased away the 55+ listeners as they are worthless to 99% of ad campaigns. Unsalable. No interest. Like selling ice at the South Pole. No demand.

Commercial radio is an ad medium and we supply products advertisers want. Just as a billboard company does not put up boards on untravelled back roads, we do not put up formats that a salable group of listeners will like.

Even better example. tampa-st. Pete is a retirement town of huge proportions. The #1 station is WDUV, doing a standards format. But 90% of its listeners are over 65. So it is 16th in billing... and dropping. Even in a retirment town, there is little demand for a station that reaches older demos.

 

[davideduardo]

>
> In my opinion, and I think David would agree, oldies works
> on AM radio stations where the sales come primarily from
> local, direct advertisers. Oldies needs to have access to
> the decision maker directly to make the case and succeed.
> Look at Entercom with KB Radio 1520. They are succeeding, in
> spite of low ratings, because they are able to deal direct
> with the business owners.

I agree totally. Suburban and smaller stations or stations in smaller markets can do well with oldies. They can live on low expenses and low rates, and do a good job at the same time.
>

 

[foreverchanges]

Re: The reality of older demos... unsalable.

> > Because in the last 5 to 7 years, they were in a rush to
> > dump all their selling points, the 50s, doo wop, the 60s,
> > the lost oldies; THAT product WORKED! If you CHANGE the
> > product based on claims that the senile audience has
> been
> > buried and now it's time to play Air Supply and Olivia
> > Newton John cos some consultant thinks it makes logical
> > sense(the music business has NEVER been about logic or
> > sense),well, don't claim that the station lost the
> audience;
> > the station CHASED AWAY the audience.
> >
>
> In the last 7 or so years, the bulk of the audience passed
> into the 55+ demo. Music from pre-1965, and do-wop
> especially, has pretty near zero appeal to under 55's since
> they were not old enough or were not even born in the era of
> that music.

Then explain to me why my 24 year old fiancee's favorite kind of music is doo wop. I'm 30 and love it as well (I know, we're exceptions)

>
> This has NOTHING to do with consultants. It does not take an
> intellectual to tell you that to have been over 15 in 1965,
> you are you are 55 years old now. It has everything to do
> with how agencies and advertisers buy radio. Pre-1955 songs
> attract nearly 100% over 55 year old listeners.
>
> The station intentionally chased away the 55+ listeners as
> they are worthless to 99% of ad campaigns. Unsalable. No
> interest. Like selling ice at the South Pole. No demand.
>
> Commercial radio is an ad medium and we supply products
> advertisers want. Just as a billboard company does not put
> up boards on untravelled back roads, we do not put up
> formats that a salable group of listeners will like.
>
> Even better example. tampa-st. Pete is a retirement town of
> huge proportions. The #1 station is WDUV, doing a standards
> format. But 90% of its listeners are over 65. So it is 16th
> in billing... and dropping. Even in a retirment town, there
> is little demand for a station that reaches older demos.
>

You're right about all this other stuff though, as always.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: The reality of older demos... unsalable.

>
> Then explain to me why my 24 year old fiancee's favorite
> kind of music is doo wop. I'm 30 and love it as well (I
> know, we're exceptions)

You are very very rare exceptons.

Advertising is sold on the cost of delivery to the target demo. If a station has a percent or two of its listeners in an "out of target" demo, they can not monetize that audience as the rate against an advertiser target would be very low.

Example: a station has 80% of its audience over 55. An advertiser wants only 35-54, so they have to price the ad rates according to the 20% of the listeners who are in the desired demo...

 

[Garrett]

> >
> > In my opinion, and I think David would agree, oldies works
>
> > on AM radio stations where the sales come primarily from
> > local, direct advertisers. Oldies needs to have access to
> > the decision maker directly to make the case and succeed.
> > Look at Entercom with KB Radio 1520. They are succeeding,
> in
> > spite of low ratings, because they are able to deal direct
>
> > with the business owners.
>
> I agree totally. Suburban and smaller stations or stations
> in smaller markets can do well with oldies. They can live on
> low expenses and low rates, and do a good job at the same
> time.
> >
>

David is right, and you will not be able to argue with him.
If you want to talk about the failure of Infinity in New York, don't talk about their cash flow, because their decision to move away from the early 60's music was the correct one.

The failure on the part of Inifinity was the inablity to sell CBS FM with newer music. I said this before: Focusing on the pre-65 idea of Oldies is a failure to program. Where infinity has failed, was in their ability to transform the format into the 70s and 80s. Instead, they had to rebrand it with Jack FM, because they couldn't figure out how to get there with the CBS or Oldies name.

And they aren't the first.

I remember, back in San Diego in the mid 90's, Rich Brother Robin tried to do this with KCBQ FM. He called it "Modern Oldies," and pretty much played the same music that Jack FM does (minus any currents). But everything else stayed in tact, with Shotgun Tom in the afternoons, you had legendary jocks playing "newer" oldies. But it didn't work. All it did was attract the type of audience that listens to Classic Hits (simialr to classic rock). It became a "splitting hairs" format, and soon, "modern oldies" was wrong, and San Diego had a 4th Classic Rock station.

With Jack FM, the thinking is to try to reach out to all the habits of today's adults. They have research that shows that people don't want to hear people talk, they want to get to the music faster. These are people who are turning to Ipods. (That's the research, anyway, not sure how accurate it is).

Put it this way, if WCBS had gone ahead and just changed the music, two bad things would have happened: First, some listeners would not have noticed the change, and would not have come back. Second, loyal listeners would have been confused and tuned out. By switching to Jack FM, Infinity hoped to:
1. Captialize on the Ipod generation
2. Get the word out that there was something new on 101.1
3. Get rid of the loyal pre-65 listener that just weren't buying anything.

Now, my issue with Jack is, it goes too far, and it is too diffrent from what CBS FM was. But even I realize that, in the end, it is a business. Just like your local Kmart chain, the underperformers go out of business, even if it is convneint for you to go there. Same thing here.

So argue with David all you want, but he's right, deal with it.
That doesn't mean you have to like Jack. Just understand what the problem is.

 

[lalumia]

> > >
> > > In my opinion, and I think David would agree, oldies
> works
> >
> > > on AM radio stations where the sales come primarily from
>
> > > local, direct advertisers. Oldies needs to have access
> to
> > > the decision maker directly to make the case and
> succeed.
> > > Look at Entercom with KB Radio 1520. They are
> succeeding,
> > in
> > > spite of low ratings, because they are able to deal
> direct
> >
> > > with the business owners.
> >
> > I agree totally. Suburban and smaller stations or stations
>
> > in smaller markets can do well with oldies. They can live
> on
> > low expenses and low rates, and do a good job at the same
> > time.
> > >
> >
>
> David is right, and you will not be able to argue with him.
> If you want to talk about the failure of Infinity in New
> York, don't talk about their cash flow, because their
> decision to move away from the early 60's music was the
> correct one.
>
> The failure on the part of Inifinity was the inablity to
> sell CBS FM with newer music. I said this before: Focusing
> on the pre-65 idea of Oldies is a failure to program. Where
> infinity has failed, was in their ability to transform the
> format into the 70s and 80s. Instead, they had to rebrand it
> with Jack FM, because they couldn't figure out how to get
> there with the CBS or Oldies name.
>
> And they aren't the first.
>
> I remember, back in San Diego in the mid 90's, Rich Brother
> Robin tried to do this with KCBQ FM. He called it "Modern
> Oldies," and pretty much played the same music that Jack FM
> does (minus any currents). But everything else stayed in
> tact, with Shotgun Tom in the afternoons, you had legendary
> jocks playing "newer" oldies. But it didn't work. All it did
> was attract the type of audience that listens to Classic
> Hits (simialr to classic rock). It became a "splitting
> hairs" format, and soon, "modern oldies" was wrong, and San
> Diego had a 4th Classic Rock station.
>
> With Jack FM, the thinking is to try to reach out to all the
> habits of today's adults. They have research that shows that
> people don't want to hear people talk, they want to get to
> the music faster. These are people who are turning to Ipods.
> (That's the research, anyway, not sure how accurate it is).
>
> Put it this way, if WCBS had gone ahead and just changed the
> music, two bad things would have happened: First, some
> listeners would not have noticed the change, and would not
> have come back. Second, loyal listeners would have been
> confused and tuned out. By switching to Jack FM, Infinity
> hoped to:
> 1. Captialize on the Ipod generation
> 2. Get the word out that there was something new on 101.1
> 3. Get rid of the loyal pre-65 listener that just weren't
> buying anything.
>
> Now, my issue with Jack is, it goes too far, and it is too
> diffrent from what CBS FM was. But even I realize that, in
> the end, it is a business. Just like your local Kmart chain,
> the underperformers go out of business, even if it is
> convneint for you to go there. Same thing here.
>
> So argue with David all you want, but he's right, deal with
> it.
> That doesn't mean you have to like Jack. Just understand
> what the problem is.
>
I've mentioned this elsewhere and I'll mention it again; there is a respect and universiality where the out put from 1955-1979 is concerned,as the original imaging of the songs and artists was presented differently and became more ingrained than what followed in the MTV era,when everything changed.80s and 90s records aren't percieved by their original fans with the same devotion that 50s,60s and 70s are.That's why tv commercials ,American Idol selections, etc draw on the 50s/60s/70s well of songs instead of 80s,90s, and currents..the new breed of teens and those in their 20s and 30s have been exposed to the 50s/60s/ 70s songs by their parents and elders,and that age group seems to prefer it to the "teenage mutant ninja, vanilla ice, macarena" songs that someone seems to think is a good idea.you can formulate all the presentations that you want, all age groups wouls rather hear supremes and beatles than marky mark and paula abdul,which were more associated with mtv than they were with radio in the first place.If advertisers want to throw their ad dollars away,well, then good luck to them in their future employment searches.

 

[adz]

This has been a most informative discussion..

''Programming to an IPod generation'' isn't going to work in the long run..because, the folks that have IPods arent suddenly going to put them down and use radio..its why they got the IPod in the first place..they're gone..and they arent coming back..

FMQB.com quoted a President of one of the mid size radio groups earlier this year saying that 12-24 is likely gone from radio listening..especially males..

We're dealing with a whole new generation of people who look at radio as old school technology..they're burning CDs, downloading music, and maybe buying an XM or Sirus radio for their cars..

Speaking of Sirus--where is the huge rollout for Howard? I thought we'd see ads in Playboy, Rolling Stone, Blender, Maxim, Stuff..are they saving it for the first quarter of 2006? Seems like Stern is pretty much left to himself to drum up his own marketing campaign..no wonder he's so stressed..

Inside Radio had a piece this week on some research showing that 18-34 listeners are leaving radio..on the one hand because they think its boring and predictable..and its not portable..

They may use radio in their cars, and a clock radio to wake up to, but that's pretty much it..

I just think the future is looking increasingly bleak for terrestrial radio..talk radio is suddenly having problems keeping its audience..one of the last formats left that can make money programming to an older demographic..

I've heard a couple of Jack stations this fall in my travels..its nothing more than watered down A/C..there is an audience of women who may like it, but does this format really have a long term future?

I doubt it.

Which leaves Infinity, Clear Channel, et al, looking at a most uncertain future..

What is Infinity's ''Plan B'' if Roth tanks in the Eastern Time Zone?

What happens if Free FM tanks?

Why didnt Inifinty ride out the Opie and Anthony storm of a couple of summers ago? They had a ready made replacement for Stern that worked in plenty of major markets..and now they have a roll of the dice that might sink the whole Infinity radio ship..

 

[davideduardo]

> >
> I've mentioned this elsewhere and I'll mention it again;
> there is a respect and universiality where the out put from
> 1955-1979 is concerned,as the original imaging of the songs
> and artists was presented differently and became more
> ingrained than what followed in the MTV era,when everything
> changed.80s and 90s records aren't percieved by their
> original fans with the same devotion that 50s,60s and 70s
> are.That's why tv commercials ,American Idol selections, etc
> draw on the 50s/60s/70s well of songs instead of 80s,90s,
> and currents..the new breed of teens and those in their 20s
> and 30s have been exposed to the 50s/60s/ 70s songs by their
> parents and elders,and that age group seems to prefer it to
> the "teenage mutant ninja, vanilla ice, macarena" songs that
> someone seems to think is a good idea.you can formulate all
> the presentations that you want, all age groups wouls rather
> hear supremes and beatles than marky mark and paula
> abdul,which were more associated with mtv than they were
> with radio in the first place.If advertisers want to throw
> their ad dollars away,well, then good luck to them in their
> future employment searches.

1. Please learn what a "paragraph" is. You have 3 or 4 paragraph´s worth of content all massed together.

2. Radio ratings, as well as in-house research, can show the appeal of music by age group. Arbitron's Maximiser software can give you audience composition with a few clicks. And oldies statins essentially have no meaningful audience below age 45, and most of it is over 55 now.

3. The use of a few highly known oldies in movies or commercials is more due to the simple beat and easy lyrics of most such songs, and not any real ongoing young demo appeal. The overwhelming fact is tahta they can get most of these burnt out songs licenced for really cheap.

4. Many people of the 60's oldies generation like Paula Abdul, Air Supply or even Daddy Yankee as much as they might like the Supremes. Some of us move on, others stay stuck in the past.

5. For radio, the number of listeners in sales demos is all that matters. Oldies does not deliver this in most cases today unless it has been modernized as a format by adding 70's and taking out pre'65 stuff.

6. Get XM. Get Sirius. Buy some CDs. Rip off the RIAA and download some oldies. But don't ask radio to commit an unnatural act by playing music that creates no sales opportunities.

 

[lalumia]

> This has been a most informative discussion..
>
> ''Programming to an IPod generation'' isn't going to work in
> the long run..because, the folks that have IPods arent
> suddenly going to put them down and use radio..its why they
> got the IPod in the first place..they're gone..and they
> arent coming back..
>
> FMQB.com quoted a President of one of the mid size radio
> groups earlier this year saying that 12-24 is likely gone
> from radio listening..especially males..
>
> We're dealing with a whole new generation of people who look
> at radio as old school technology..they're burning CDs,
> downloading music, and maybe buying an XM or Sirus radio for
> their cars..
>
> Speaking of Sirus--where is the huge rollout for Howard? I
> thought we'd see ads in Playboy, Rolling Stone, Blender,
> Maxim, Stuff..are they saving it for the first quarter of
> 2006? Seems like Stern is pretty much left to himself to
> drum up his own marketing campaign..no wonder he's so
> stressed..
>
> Inside Radio had a piece this week on some research showing
> that 18-34 listeners are leaving radio..on the one hand
> because they think its boring and predictable..and its not
> portable..
>
> They may use radio in their cars, and a clock radio to wake
> up to, but that's pretty much it..
>
> I just think the future is looking increasingly bleak for
> terrestrial radio..talk radio is suddenly having problems
> keeping its audience..one of the last formats left that can
> make money programming to an older demographic..
>
> I've heard a couple of Jack stations this fall in my
> travels..its nothing more than watered down A/C..there is an
> audience of women who may like it, but does this format
> really have a long term future?
>
> I doubt it.
>
> Which leaves Infinity, Clear Channel, et al, looking at a
> most uncertain future..
>
> What is Infinity's ''Plan B'' if Roth tanks in the Eastern
> Time Zone?
>
> What happens if Free FM tanks?
>
> Why didnt Inifinty ride out the Opie and Anthony storm of a
> couple of summers ago? They had a ready made replacement
> for Stern that worked in plenty of major markets..and now
> they have a roll of the dice that might sink the whole
> Infinity radio ship..
>Exactly: A while back i stated that the i pod generation has no interest or desire to participate in radio at all, let alone having to endure exposure to Vanilla Ice or Paula Abdul; there is,however, reverance for the "Industrial Revolution" period of pop culture, the 60s and 70s.Is there a hit play on Broadway about Nirvana or New Kids on the Block grossing a half mil a day and generating international interest? No, but "Jersey Boys" featuring the saga and music of Frankie Valli & the Four Seasons is delivering those stats!...Is a film about TLC or En Vogue creating a manical buzz a year in advance of it's release? No, but the thinly veiled story of Diana Ross & the Supremes, "DreamGirls" set for release in Dec. 06,already has a chokehold on the entertainment world,featuring the biggest stars of the moment including Jamie Foxx and Beyonce.Dead John Lennon was on the cover of every daily newspaper a few days ago; do we see similar props accorded to Cobain or any other 80s/90s roadkill? I don't think so..... by the way.....PARAGRAPHS ARE soooooooo 90s!

 

[BACKnUSSR]

> 1. Please learn what a "paragraph" is. You have 3 or 4
> paragraph´s worth of content all massed together.

Yes. Call the "Language Police".


> 2. Radio ratings, as well as in-house research, can show the
> appeal of music by age group. Arbitron's Maximiser software
> can give you audience composition with a few clicks. And
> oldies statins essentially have no meaningful audience below
> age 45, and most of it is over 55 now.

That's simply untrue. Especially in some of the non-major markets
where you'll find oldies stations with pretty substantial audiences
outside of 45+.
(i.e., KQOL-Las Vegas; KEYF-Spokane; WYNZ-Portland; KGOR-Omaha)

> 3. The use of a few highly known oldies in movies or
> commercials is more due to the simple beat and easy lyrics
> of most such songs, and not any real ongoing young demo
> appeal. The overwhelming fact is tahta they can get most of
> these burnt out songs licenced for really cheap.

Not necessarily true. In fact, songs by the Beatles and Supremes
(who we've cited as examples, are more expensive to license than
virtually anything from Paula Abdul or Air Supply). You'll also
find that the Beatles and Supremes each sell more records in 2005
than either Paula Abdul or Air Supply does.
>
> 4. Many people of the 60's oldies generation like Paula
> Abdul, Air Supply or even Daddy Yankee as much as they might
> like the Supremes. Some of us move on, others stay stuck in
> the past.

The vast majority do not. And I would venture to say that
very, very few people of the 60's oldies generation have even
heard of Daddy Yankee.
>
> 5. For radio, the number of listeners in sales demos is all
> that matters. Oldies does not deliver this in most cases
> today unless it has been modernized as a format by adding
> 70's and taking out pre'65 stuff.

Well, its not "all" that matters. And oddly enough, the oldies
stations in America that bill the highest are the one's who have
not made the move to adding 70's. It'll be interesting to see if the
KRTH sales drop or rise after making that move.

> 6. Get XM. Get Sirius. Buy some CDs. Rip off the RIAA and
> download some oldies. But don't ask radio to commit an
> unnatural act by playing music that creates no sales
> opportunities.

It does create sales opportunities. In fact for the first time in U.S.
radio history the over 35 audience is larger than the under 35 audience.
We just need to get a little bit more creative and drop older ways of
selling it not necessarily drop older music.

 

[davideduardo]

> > 1. Please learn what a "paragraph" is. You have 3 or 4
> > paragraph´s worth of content all massed together.
>
> Yes. Call the "Language Police".

Te objective of posting is to make a point or comment on another point. Neither is achieved if the post is unreadable. A run.on paragraph is very close to unreadable.
>
>
> > 2. Radio ratings, as well as in-house research, can show
> the
> > appeal of music by age group. Arbitron's Maximiser
> software
> > can give you audience composition with a few clicks. And
> > oldies statins essentially have no meaningful audience
> below
> > age 45, and most of it is over 55 now.
>
> That's simply untrue. Especially in some of the non-major
> markets
> where you'll find oldies stations with pretty substantial
> audiences
> outside of 45+.
> (i.e., KQOL-Las Vegas; KEYF-Spokane; WYNZ-Portland;
> KGOR-Omaha)

KOQL averages around 20% of its aucience under 45, and another 30% in 45-54. So, half the audiences _is_ over 55. If two stations with the same 12+ share are after a buy, and station #1 has all 25-54 and KOQL has 50%, the rate KOQL will get will be half that of the other station, as they will have to meet the same CPP in 25-54 as the "pure" in demo station.

Since the costs of KOQL and some AC or 25-54 rock or country staiton are probably about the same, KOQL will bill significantly less on the same expenses.

By the way, you have cited all Top 100 market stations. None of these are small makrets by any means.
>
> Not necessarily true. In fact, songs by the Beatles and
> Supremes
> (who we've cited as examples, are more expensive to
> license than
> virtually anything from Paula Abdul or Air Supply).
> You'll also
> find that the Beatles and Supremes each sell more records
> in 2005
> than either Paula Abdul or Air Supply does.

Still, aside from these poor examples... the licencing of music for ad campaigns usually involves second tier artists with few hits, not big songs by big artists that still sell. this is not an indication that there is any massive appeal of 60's music to people under 55...
> >
> > 4. Many people of the 60's oldies generation like Paula
> > Abdul, Air Supply or even Daddy Yankee as much as they
> might
> > like the Supremes. Some of us move on, others stay stuck
> in
> > the past.
>
> The vast majority do not. And I would venture to say that
>
> very, very few people of the 60's oldies generation have
> even
> heard of Daddy Yankee.

I run into older demos who know and like Ramond Ayala all the time. What that proves is that anecdotal evidence is very suspect. People who like 60's oldies tend to get along with similar folks, so they see their music being supported. I know very few English language oldies fans, but I don't take this as evidence that there is no appeal.
> >
> > 5. For radio, the number of listeners in sales demos is
> all
> > that matters. Oldies does not deliver this in most cases
> > today unless it has been modernized as a format by adding
> > 70's and taking out pre'65 stuff.
>
> Well, its not "all" that matters. And oddly enough, the
> oldies
> stations in America that bill the highest are the one's
> who have
> not made the move to adding 70's. It'll be interesting to
> see if the
> KRTH sales drop or rise after making that move.

Yet nearly every oldies station is losing 25-54 and is off in revenue. The CBS-FM example is true everywhere there is a pure oldies play (without a strong morning show that is independent of the music, like Cleveland and Phoenix) the revenue is off while market revenue is growing.
>
> > 6. Get XM. Get Sirius. Buy some CDs. Rip off the RIAA and
> > download some oldies. But don't ask radio to commit an
> > unnatural act by playing music that creates no sales
> > opportunities.
>
> It does create sales opportunities. In fact for the first
> time in U.S.
> radio history the over 35 audience is larger than the
> under 35 audience.
> We just need to get a little bit more creative and drop
> older ways of
> selling it not necessarily drop older music.

There is no way of selling 55+ until the marketing research at the major advertisers shows that there is a market for this crowd. Radio has no access to the advertisers itself on a station level, so the solution is to select formats that appeal to what advertisers want.

There are no 55+ sales opportunities, except in local direct sales and this is going to work in smaller markets or suburban situations. Any station that needs transactional business can not long afford to do 60's oldies. Either they add newer stuff and kill the pre '65, or change format.
>

 

[davideduardo]

> >Exactly: A while back i stated that the i pod generation
> has no interest or desire to participate in radio at all,
> let alone having to endure exposure to Vanilla Ice or Paula
> Abdul; there is,however, reverance for the "Industrial
> Revolution" period of pop culture, the 60s and 70s.Is there
> a hit play on Broadway about Nirvana or New Kids on the
> Block grossing a half mil a day and generating international
> interest? No, but "Jersey Boys" featuring the saga and music
> of Frankie Valli & the Four Seasons is delivering those
> stats!...Is a film about TLC or En Vogue creating a manical
> buzz a year in advance of it's release? No, but the thinly
> veiled story of Diana Ross & the Supremes, "DreamGirls" set
> for release in Dec. 06,already has a chokehold on the
> entertainment world,featuring the biggest stars of the
> moment including Jamie Foxx and Beyonce.Dead John Lennon was
> on the cover of every daily newspaper a few days ago; do we
> see similar props accorded to Cobain or any other 80s/90s
> roadkill? I don't think so..... by the way.....PARAGRAPHS
> ARE soooooooo 90s!

Paragraphs are soooo correct. They make your writing intelligible, something the above post has none of. I did not even get two lines into it.

The reason why there are conventions in writing, such as not writing body text in all caps, is to increase legibility and to standardize presentation so that peoples of different ages, cultures and levels of education will be able to follow the discourse.

You, no hte other hand, can't even trim the previous post to save bandwidth. Not wasting bandwidth is sooooo today.
>

 

[davideduardo]

>
> Why didnt Inifinty ride out the Opie and Anthony storm of a
> couple of summers ago?

They felt it would jeopardize licences over a duo that was not of that much potential value to the company. On the ogther hand, the O&A issue could have caused all the Infinity renewals to be questioned, as it made Infinity, with stern as baggage, look like a purveyor of smut.

 

[am-fm]

> 4. Many people of the 60's oldies generation like Paula
> Abdul, Air Supply or even Daddy Yankee as much as they might
> like the Supremes. Some of us move on, others stay stuck in
> the past.

Gee, thanks for saying that people who like oldies (and possibly only oldies) are stuck in the past.

Could it be that groups like The Doobie Brothers, Jackson 5, The Trammps, ELO, Bay City Rollers did oldies covers because maybe the music was good?

I know that Infinity, Cox, Clear Channel and allmost every other public radio corp have valid reasons for either killing off oldies, or just killing off pre 65 tunes. Good music is good music - and by the same token, bad music is bad music (Starlight Vocal Band, Bobby Goldsboro, and Brittany Spears to name a few).

The music will live on - thank God for satellite radio and the few oldies stations who still call themselves oldies.

Maybe the reason people are stuck in the past is because todays radio sucks.

Speaking of, tonight was the last night for Hy Lit on WOGL. Another legend gone....

<P ID="signature">______________

AOL IM: wnjoldies or jamminoldies105
CBS-FM lives at http://67.83.118.54:8010
Oldies Board co-moderator</P>