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The Fall of KGO

I know that this topic isn't Seattle-centric per se', but it will be curious to see if similar results with long-standing stations like KIRO, albeit not a direct comparison since KGO was #1 25-54 since 1978, and KIRO has had ups and downs. KGO has officially lost the long top spot to KCBS, which is simulcast after moving to 106.9FM a few months ago. KGO now is #12 25-54 which is a shocker!

The question asked on the San Francisco board; Is this a PPM measurement byproduct, or are AM only heritage stations like KGO losing their grip? If so, then perhaps blowing up KBSG tacoma/Seattle wasn't such a bad thing after all?
 
A good friend of mine was applying for a job with KGO (Sr. Managment). As we talked about it...I asked her, "Is it too late for KGO?" She just paused...and said, "Probably..." That kind of sums up KGO's plight.

FM News/talk and PPM's are the death knell for many of these heritage AM stations - just as People Meters decimated heritage TV stations (KING-5 for example). Anyone who's listened to KGO these past few years would be hard pressed to hear any callers under 60 - and these are screened calls. So the decline of 25-54 is not surprising.

Citadel bought ABC at absolutely the perfect wrong time. Lot's of great radio people there at KGO...I wish them the best.
 
Citadel has mismanaged every single one of its talk stations by failing to appeal to a younger demo, especially younger females.

Limbaugh, Levine, Savage, Hannity are very mean, and don't appeal to the more liberal 18-49 crowd.

For example at KGO they dumped Karel - and after Bernie Ward was gone, they failed to get a really far left wacko liberal like Karel in that timeslot - it was Karel on some nights, Christine Craft on others - leaving younger listeners confused.

9P-2A has potential for 18-49'ers to return to the AM band if they know there's a special show to tune in as they retire.

The same can be said for Entercom at KIRO - they dumped Mike Webb, Erin Hart, etc.

KIRO management even dumped local talk with Bryan Styble, adding the "libertarian midnight radio network" for a short period of time -- in a blue city what were they smoking (no pun intended) ???
 
I'll ALWAYS love Brother Ray Taliaferro's rants. I still listen when I can after 1:00 AM (and have called several times.) Between me and "Sheldon from Oakland", I don't know who's a bigger fan.....
 
I suppose it's not an issue for those who have to live and die by their market's Arbitron ratings, but one of the beauties of directional AM clears like KGO is the steady nighttime (and even twilight) coverage for hundreds of miles in the path of the directional signal. Too bad that ultra-conservative religious stations in Portland and Seattle got decent nighttime signals a few years ago, which prevent those of us in the population centers who would still enjoy being able to listen to KGO to actually hear it without it being jammed by the adjacent station splatter. A real waste of AM spectrum, in my opinion, for yet another set of time-brokered religious stations with just enough listeners for Dobson and his ilk to pay for airtime, but not enough general service programming to matter to the rest of the world. Or to help keep AM a viable and compelling service.

For those of us who still like to DX AM signals, especially when there's some programming of note on them, powerful signals like KGO. and WBZ Boston and the old WCFL Chicago, and maybe even KFBK Sacramento, what used to be on WLAC Nashville and some of the programming out of WWL New Orleans, and even those crazy border stations aimed north from Mexico, showed what a directional array could accomplish for motorists and small town listeners hungry for something to connect to at night -- something that going FM-only can't accomplish without a network. (I propose that this would be the real purpose of satellite radio - to provide actual national networks from a single source, and then give some of the local signals over to smaller operators to serve their local communities without having to service investor debt as their primary purpose.)

If you're one of the few 50kw-ers with a killer AM signal, and you're putting out a steady signal in one direction, you're probably coming in stronger than many of the local AMs hundreds of miles away. And, with compelling, unique programming, you could find a steady audience well beyond your MSA. At least, that used to be the case when they aired local programming and the signals were protected where they actually went.

For what it's worth, if I could still hear KGO in my car on I-5 in Seattle, I'd be listening to it at night. Maybe even to Gene Burns. Definitely to Christine Craft. With the lack of local talk shows at night in Seattle, I probably wouldn't be alone, since KGO's signal is otherwise amazingly strong up here when you get away from KGNW. But the adjacent channel splatter from AM820 makes it impossible to hear now until I get well outside my usual sphere east of Redmond or north of Everett.

Now if we could just get a pattern aimed this way from KCBS (740) and CKWX (1130), we'd also have a choice for some news updates beyond the sometimes-fumbling of KOMO. (I do think their evening guy is top-notch -- it's just their programming clock, super-irritating liners, and seemingly 50% commercial load make it hard for me to sit thru more than 5 minutes of KOMO. "kohhh-mohhhh on the faaarhs...")

What say ye, old-timers who still have AM presets on your car radios? Is there anything from out of town (not counting inernet or I-Phones) that you're tuning into on a regular basis anymore?
 
Goldilocks, same kind of problem on 1160. Once you get to around Everett, KKNW's splatter from 1150 is minimized and you can actually hear KSL loud and clear from Salt Lake City. Bonneville has yet another young host who is more topical and better at staying focused in Ethan Millard, there. (vs. Luke here- there's nothing wrong with him, but falling off clock and cramming several of your commercials into the last 10 minutes of each hour really stinks)
http://nightside.ksl.com/index.php/?nid=18
 
kgo put gill gross on in the afternoon, it must have cost them a few bucks. I don't know if he lives in SF area or LA.

He is someone that I would think fits the 45 to 65 demographic, owens, gross, burns, the newspeople, they fit the older demograpic, and after 401ks and home values have taken a dump, medical care cost concerns, how much will they spend for the next few years? Not only is the station missing the mark on age, what about spending power? Bringing in someone that appeals to younger listeners may drive off the greysters...you are right, they are in a box they can't get out of
 
>>Citadel has mismanaged every single one of its talk stations by failing to appeal to a younger demo, especially younger females>>

Not every station. WLS in Chicago has very good ratings--even better than before citadel took over.
Since this may be the only example maybe it's just dumb luck.
 
I really miss the days back in the 90's when I would be up all night listening to Ray's show - particularly the 4th and final hour, when, as Ray himself would say "is when we generally get the most learned of all the callers...heh-heh-heh...sure it is..." Unfortunately, since then, I have settled down into a much more mundane existance, but it's nice to know Mr. Taliafero is still on the job.
 
Goldilocks94941 said:
I suppose it's not an issue for those who have to live and die by their market's Arbitron ratings, but one of the beauties of directional AM clears like KGO is the steady nighttime (and even twilight) coverage for hundreds of miles in the path of the directional signal. Too bad that ultra-conservative religious stations in Portland and Seattle got decent nighttime signals a few years ago, which prevent those of us in the population centers who would still enjoy being able to listen to KGO to actually hear it without it being jammed by the adjacent station splatter. A real waste of AM spectrum, in my opinion, for yet another set of time-brokered religious stations with just enough listeners for Dobson and his ilk to pay for airtime, but not enough general service programming to matter to the rest of the world. Or to help keep AM a viable and compelling service.

For those of us who still like to DX AM signals, especially when there's some programming of note on them, powerful signals like KGO. and WBZ Boston and the old WCFL Chicago, and maybe even KFBK Sacramento, what used to be on WLAC Nashville and some of the programming out of WWL New Orleans, and even those crazy border stations aimed north from Mexico, showed what a directional array could accomplish for motorists and small town listeners hungry for something to connect to at night -- something that going FM-only can't accomplish without a network. (I propose that this would be the real purpose of satellite radio - to provide actual national networks from a single source, and then give some of the local signals over to smaller operators to serve their local communities without having to service investor debt as their primary purpose.)

If you're one of the few 50kw-ers with a killer AM signal, and you're putting out a steady signal in one direction, you're probably coming in stronger than many of the local AMs hundreds of miles away. And, with compelling, unique programming, you could find a steady audience well beyond your MSA. At least, that used to be the case when they aired local programming and the signals were protected where they actually went.

For what it's worth, if I could still hear KGO in my car on I-5 in Seattle, I'd be listening to it at night. Maybe even to Gene Burns. Definitely to Christine Craft. With the lack of local talk shows at night in Seattle, I probably wouldn't be alone, since KGO's signal is otherwise amazingly strong up here when you get away from KGNW. But the adjacent channel splatter from AM820 makes it impossible to hear now until I get well outside my usual sphere east of Redmond or north of Everett.

Now if we could just get a pattern aimed this way from KCBS (740) and CKWX (1130), we'd also have a choice for some news updates beyond the sometimes-fumbling of KOMO. (I do think their evening guy is top-notch -- it's just their programming clock, super-irritating liners, and seemingly 50% commercial load make it hard for me to sit thru more than 5 minutes of KOMO. "kohhh-mohhhh on the faaarhs...")

What say ye, old-timers who still have AM presets on your car radios? Is there anything from out of town (not counting inernet or I-Phones) that you're tuning into on a regular basis anymore?

CKWX 1130 actually BOOMS in Seattle, day and night. Before KOMO went all-news, it was not uncommon to hear CKWX around Seattle on other people's radios back in the '90s. It was (and still is) rock solid clear down to Olympia on both car radios and my truck. And it's loud and clear with minimal skip in Spokane at night.......

I always thought with that kind of signal, they should have opened a Seattle sales/news bureau. Might be irrelevant now, but had they flipped to news in the '70s or '80s and promoted it on TV and billboards here, they could have been a real contender in Seattle. (Hey, if Mexican stations can do it.....) and scooped up TWO major markets with one signal.

They had a surprising amount of south of the border Puget Sound news coverage for a Vancouver station (plus the BEST jingle package for an all-news station ever made, a carbon copy of the old KFWB package.) The classic jingle package hasn't been heard in a LONG time, but I still have CKWX on my presets.......
 
>>I always thought with that kind of signal, they should have opened a Seattle sales/news bureau. Might be irrelevant now, but had they flipped to news in the '70s or '80s and promoted it on TV and billboards here, they could have been a real contender in Seattle. (Hey, if Mexican stations can do it.....) and scooped up TWO major markets with one signal>>

I never thought of that but those comparison to the Mexican border station are interesting.
 
Bongwater said:
CKWX 1130 actually BOOMS in Seattle, day and night. Before KOMO went all-news, it was not uncommon to hear CKWX around Seattle on other people's radios back in the '90s. It was (and still is) rock solid clear down to Olympia on both car radios and my truck. And it's loud and clear with minimal skip in Spokane at night.......

I always thought with that kind of signal, they should have opened a Seattle sales/news bureau. Might be irrelevant now, but had they flipped to news in the '70s or '80s and promoted it on TV and billboards here, they could have been a real contender in Seattle. (Hey, if Mexican stations can do it.....) and scooped up TWO major markets with one signal.

They had a surprising amount of south of the border Puget Sound news coverage for a Vancouver station (plus the BEST jingle package for an all-news station ever made, a carbon copy of the old KFWB package.) The classic jingle package hasn't been heard in a LONG time, but I still have CKWX on my presets.......

Um, I actually have an awesome Mazda with a good radio (especially FM DX'ing) and I loose 1130 in Bellingham. Does it re-bounce south of the city? Same for 730. I rely on both for border waits since I know they have live people all the time... well actually I think 730 loops on weekends sometimes.
 
radioman148 said:
I haven't heard 730 in awhile. Are they still all traffic?

Yup! With some sports and not much else

Seattle could use an all traffic station........
 
AQH said:
Maybe KGO should put on Robin and Maynard. ::)

Considering the mess of rotating hosts they have on the 10-1am weeknight shift, it can't hurt.... ;)
 
I too listen to CKWX almost every day on my car radio, and live in the middle of Seattle. A real "All news" format that actually puts traffic and weather together, and keeps the commerical breaks short, is easy to button punch when there's nothing else grabbing you from other stations. But the nighttime signal has gotten pretty weak in recent months, and Seattle's famously un-shielded electrical wires don't help. There's also a lot of sideband splatter from the nighttime mish-mash on AM 1140 (I think it's two 50kw directional stations from Sacramento and Calgary fighting it out), and sometimes 1120 from Eugene steps over it, too, even with a good radio.

My original point was I wish CKWX would be able to aim a stronger signal south at night, since it doesn't appear they are really having to protect anything significant on 1130 along the West Coast. Some nighttime skywave from Canada would be welcome for motorists in Oregon and California, too. But I think they have a complicated directional array of at least six-towers just north of the border, and what we can get this way suffers from a lot of phasing at night, too.

I wish more Canadians stations tried to reach across the border toward Seattle, but with AM 600 going dark (which was the only other Vancouver AM you could get fairly well iN Seattle if you don't count the heavy jamming on CBC-690 from KIRO), the dial seems to keep getting smaller and smaller.

You guys ever listen to the CBC on AM540 at night? It's probably the most powerful 50kw signal in the US or Canada from Saksatchewan, with its transmitter on a large salt water lake between Regina and Saskatoon But it, too, is now suffereing from some interference that wasn't there so much a few weeks ago. But it does make for good nighttime radio in the car.

I'll probably start a new thread one of these days about technical issues of AM signals in the Seattle area. I've traveled a lot and listened closely to the AM dial for years in many cities, and have never heard such AM splatter anywhere to the extent I find from KIRO, KOMO, KIXI, and now even KCIS. You don't get it from the big stations in LA, where Tijuana stations are jammed in 20khz from LA's 50kw-ers. Nor in SF, Detroit, Cincinnati, etc.

It's different from the big hum that some AM-HD signals were causing at night. I'm talking about heavy sideband splatter that travels past 20 khz for at least 50 miles from the transmitter site. (And, oddly enough, the splatter only went away when KIRO ran an old time radio show on Sunday nghts a couple of years ago, except for during the commercials). I recall being able to hear CBC from Vancouver on AM690 loud and clear some years ago in Seattle - but even tho' it's still there, albeit coming from an ageing AM transmitter, the KIRO interference makes it unlistenable all the way till you get north of Marysville.

Again, further stories of how a messy AM dial doesn't really help boost the fortunes the few strong signals you can get, but, I think, adds to the irrelevancy of the entire spectrum for people who might otherwise find programming they would enjoy - if only they could hear it. Same concept that a restaurant does better business when there are a lot of other restaurants in the vicinity, then when it's all by itself in the neighborhood.

PS - I case you hadn't heard yet, RIP Larry Glick. He was the master of late night radio on clear channel WBZ for years - one of my personal greatest radio influences - and Luke Burbank ought to study some of his old shows to figure out how to be a personality without relying on the producer-sidekick to come up with something to talk about. I will bring out my old Glck University T shirt tonight (which, unfortunately, I'm sure I'll never be able to fit into again), and hold to my promise to Larry to "keep it clean" as I toast the "Commander."

GL
 
Goldilocks94941 said:
I wish more Canadians stations tried to reach across the border toward Seattle, but with AM 600 going dark (which was the only other Vancouver AM you could get fairly well iN Seattle if you don't count the heavy jamming on CBC-690 from KIRO), the dial seems to keep getting smaller and smaller.

So how would changing their directional pattern to the South benefit a BC station exactly? They can't even sell advertising South of the border. Would it be just for the benefit of a handfull of geeky DX'ers? ::)
 
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