The new krth

[davideduardo]

So where does KRTH get the audience for its revised format?

Gosh knows Los Angeles just doesn't seem like the market for a station for nostalgic gringos: someone who was 21 in 1983 is 51 today so all this talk about 80's music doesn't sound like something that will bring in loads of young blood.

This is more than "nostalgic gringos" in that the demographic changes in the market have influenced the music in the market for decades. Most people went with the flow, because that is what radio and other music media accustomed them to.

A few people remain who want Beach Boys and Jan & Dean and that kind of "oldies". Most people in the market have moved on, or, at least, don't miss hearing that kind of music on the radio (beyond the age issue).

 

[Thomps2525]

David points out that (a) KRTH wants younger listeners and (b) Los Angeles has a lot of Hispanics, so (c) why doesn't KRTH play Shakira, Selena, Chayanne, José Feliciano, Freddy Fender, Chris Montez, Lisette Melendez, Paulina Rubio, Christina Aguilera, Santana, Juanes, Pitbull, Daddy Yankee, Selena Gomez, Celia Cruz, Jennifer Lopez, Gloria Estefan, Enrique Iglesias, Ricky Martin, Marc Anthony, Los Lobos, Los Lonely Boys and Los Tigres Del Norte? Most of the aforementioned "nostalgic gringos" probably no longer listen to KRTH anyway, so a playlist featuring all those artists might attract a bigger audience than the station has now.

 

[michael hagerty]

David points out that (a) KRTH wants younger listeners and (b) Los Angeles has a lot of Hispanics, so (c) why doesn't KRTH play Shakira, Selena, Chayanne, José Feliciano, Freddy Fender, Chris Montez, Lisette Melendez, Paulina Rubio, Christina Aguilera, Santana, Juanes, Pitbull, Daddy Yankee, Selena Gomez, Celia Cruz, Jennifer Lopez, Gloria Estefan, Enrique Iglesias, Ricky Martin, Marc Anthony, Los Lobos, Los Lonely Boys and Los Tigres Del Norte? Most of the aforementioned "nostalgic gringos" probably no longer listen to KRTH anyway, so a playlist featuring all those artists might attract a bigger audience than the station has now.

Are you drinking?

 

[davideduardo]

David points out that (a) KRTH wants younger listeners and (b) Los Angeles has a lot of Hispanics, so (c) why doesn't KRTH play Shakira, Selena, Chayanne, José Feliciano, Freddy Fender, Chris Montez, Lisette Melendez, Paulina Rubio, Christina Aguilera, Santana, Juanes, Pitbull, Daddy Yankee, Selena Gomez, Celia Cruz, Jennifer Lopez, Gloria Estefan, Enrique Iglesias, Ricky Martin, Marc Anthony, Los Lobos, Los Lonely Boys and Los Tigres Del Norte? Most of the aforementioned "nostalgic gringos" probably no longer listen to KRTH anyway, so a playlist featuring all those artists might attract a bigger audience than the station has now.

Oldies stations in Latin America don't play those artists. Some are not even pop artists... Tigres, Fender, most Feliciano, most Selena is not pop.

 

[Thomps2525]

Michael: I have never drunk alcohol or liquor or beer. Whta gaev yu the imrpessssion that I wsa drninking?

David: I'm guessing that, compared with Hispanics in Latin America, a higher percentage of Hispanics in Los Angeles speak English. Considering that, I'm guessing that the format I suggested would do quite well with 25-to-44-year-old Hispanics. Heck, I'm older than that and I'm white...and I would listen!

 

[davideduardo]

Michael: I have never drunk alcohol or liquor or beer. Whta gaev yu the imrpessssion that I wsa drninking?

David: I'm guessing that, compared with Hispanics in Latin America, a higher percentage of Hispanics in Los Angeles speak English. Considering that, I'm guessing that the format I suggested would do quite well with 25-to-44-year-old Hispanics. Heck, I'm older than that and I'm white...and I would listen!

What you listed was the most un-synergistic group of artists I believe I have ever seen. Hispanics don't like artists because they have Hispanic surnames. That is why in Latin America there are Spanish language AC stations, rock stations, country-equivalent stations (regional Mexican in Mexico, tropical in the Caribbean, etc), CHRs, rhythmic CHRs, classic hits stations, regional oldies stations, etc., etc.

All of those formats play songs by people with Hispanic surnames but they don't play the same songs. Feliciano, Fender and Shakira represent three separate formats.

 

[Thomps2525]

And I grew up listening to KFWB, KRLA, KHJ and KDAY, all of which played music from several different formats. Do you really think a station that played "Feliciano, Fender and Shakira" could not be successful?

 

[krth101]

Reading this thread with great interest, a couple of quick thoughts come to mind:
1 - with all the talk of the erosion of KRTHS 25-54 demo, can anyone post or speak to those numbers here to show the rapid decline of the audience there has been so much reference to?
2 - the continuing *evolution of the station and major reinventing of the playlist every 5 years or so to me is a formula that I find difficult to believe will *succeed long term. *They are telling me the loyalty factor is no longer a factor in building their brand.
3 - the fact that KRTH was able to show such great consistency with their music, personalities and sound over the past 20 years are it's true legacy. The integration of newer music to the format seamlessly in the jhani Kaye and for that matter the jay Coffey era, was done in a manner to retain the old listeners while bringing in the new at the same time. I don't see that as the case in the first few months with Rick Thomas at the helm. He has substantially changed the playlist in the past 60 days. How many more repetitions *will it take before "carry on wayward soon" morphs into "brown eyed girl".
4 - is there a loyal audience looking for late 80s and early 90s music? I ask this legitimately. It seems as if this music can be heard on a number of other commercial stations. Why would these target listeners be attracted to KRTH? Aren't the programmers walking a fine line with this broad based format? Where I find too many of the late 80s songs to be what I would call "tune out" records, wouldn't those in the younger demo find some of these early 70s tunes much the same? This almost 3 decade playlist does not flow in part because it's trying to be too many things to too many people.
5 - as there was with 60s and 70s music, there seems to be a core of well tested 80s titles as well. That said, it still seems to be more than just coincidence how closely KRTH is now mimicking the walrus in San Diego. Where CBS FM in new York and the oldies station here in San Francisco play many of these same well tested tracks, there is definitely a difference in their overall playlists. Not all oldies/classic hits stations sound the same. Just wondering.

 

[michael hagerty]

And I grew up listening to KFWB, KRLA, KHJ and KDAY, all of which played music from several different formats. Do you really think a station that played "Feliciano, Fender and Shakira" could not be successful?

Steve:

Are you sure you're not....oh, never mind.

KFWB, KRLA, KHJ and KDAY existed in an environment where there were maybe 10 viable signals in the market. Now it's more like 25.

KFWB managed to maintain its dominance for 5 years before the more focused KRLA ate its lunch.

KRLA for 2 years before the more focused KHJ ate its lunch.

KDAY was never dominant.

So how on earth is any of that (which dates from 40 to 55 years ago) relevant?

And just how popular do you think Freddy Fender is with 40-year-olds of any ethnicity in 2013 Los Angeles?

 

[michael hagerty]

Reading this thread with great interest, a couple of quick thoughts come to mind:
1 - with all the talk of the erosion of KRTHS 25-54 demo, can anyone post or speak to those numbers here to show the rapid decline of the audience there has been so much reference to?
2 - the continuing *evolution of the station and major reinventing of the playlist every 5 years or so to me is a formula that I find difficult to believe will *succeed long term. *They are telling me the loyalty factor is no longer a factor in building their brand.
3 - the fact that KRTH was able to show such great consistency with their music, personalities and sound over the past 20 years are it's true legacy. The integration of newer music to the format seamlessly in the jhani Kaye and for that matter the jay Coffey era, was done in a manner to retain the old listeners while bringing in the new at the same time. I don't see that as the case in the first few months with Rick Thomas at the helm. He has substantially changed the playlist in the past 60 days. How many more repetitions *will it take before "carry on wayward soon" morphs into "brown eyed girl".
4 - is there a loyal audience looking for late 80s and early 90s music? I ask this legitimately. It seems as if this music can be heard on a number of other commercial stations. Why would these target listeners be attracted to KRTH? Aren't the programmers walking a fine line with this broad based format? Where I find too many of the late 80s songs to be what I would call "tune out" records, wouldn't those in the younger demo find some of these early 70s tunes much the same? This almost 3 decade playlist does not flow in part because it's trying to be too many things to too many people.
5 - as there was with 60s and 70s music, there seems to be a core of well tested 80s titles as well. That said, it still seems to be more than just coincidence how closely KRTH is now mimicking the walrus in San Diego. Where CBS FM in new York and the oldies station here in San Francisco play many of these same well tested tracks, there is definitely a difference in their overall playlists. Not all oldies/classic hits stations sound the same. Just wondering.

1. David?

2. I never said re-inventing. KRTH is in a position now where the music can evolve to where it should be as time goes by. It's probably still skewing a little old, but now it's on a path where it can catch up and maintain relevance without major reinvention.

3. KRTH's "showing great consistency with their music, personalities and sound over 20 years" is what allowed their average listener age to go from a little over 40 to a little over 60. Jhani brought it back down to someplace just above 50. And it was not done to retain old listeners. As I said before, no one looks at 6+, and losing unsalable listeners has no effect on the salable demo number.

4. Name the stations that are playing the music KRTH is playing now. As for the "younger demo" (again, these are 40-year-old adults) tuning out over early 70s tunes, that's part of the evolution. Those songs are the ones they like, love or will tolerate now and they won't be there forever.

5. Mimicking? Again, how big a stretch is it to believe that two stations in the same format 120 miles down the same beach from each other would see similar results from music testing?

 

[davideduardo]

Reading this thread with great interest, a couple of quick thoughts come to mind:
1 - with all the talk of the erosion of KRTHS 25-54 demo, can anyone post or speak to those numbers here to show the rapid decline of the audience there has been so much reference to?

Spring 1998, KRTH was tied with KOST for #5 in 25-54. By 2000 they were down to 13th, and in Spring 2005 they were 18th. Today, after updating the library over the last few years and reducing significantly the 60's music they are struggling around a 15th to 18th in that sales demo.

2 - the continuing *evolution of the station and major reinventing of the playlist every 5 years or so to me is a formula that I find difficult to believe will *succeed long term. *They are telling me the loyalty factor is no longer a factor in building their brand.

You have to understand that the "brand" is "classic hits for 40-55 year olds" and the music has to flow both in and out to reflect the potential listener pool.

KOST has a magnificent AC brand but it has consistently, over the decades, pushed the 55+ out the back door while trying to attract newcomers to the 35-54 demo in by playing music that appeals to them.

The fact that folks, now in their 60's and 70's, loved KRTH in 20 or 30 years ago is irrelevant. KRTH is not a museum, where the older stuff is the more valuable it is.

3 - the fact that KRTH was able to show such great consistency with their music, personalities and sound over the past 20 years are it's true legacy.

That's not a legacy, that is defect. It shows the station has not kept up with younger (40-54) listeners, who may not like all the jingles, 60's style DJs, etc.

The integration of newer music to the format seamlessly in the jhani Kaye and for that matter the jay Coffey era, was done in a manner to retain the old listeners while bringing in the new at the same time. I don't see that as the case in the first few months with Rick Thomas at the helm. He has substantially changed the playlist in the past 60 days. How many more repetitions *will it take before "carry on wayward soon" morphs into "brown eyed girl".

"Keeping the older listeners" is a kiss of death sales-wise.

[/QUOTE]4 - is there a loyal audience looking for late 80s and early 90s music?[/QUOTE]

If you are 45, the core target, music from that era will be quite relevant... today's 45-year-old was barely into their 20's in 1990, and will still know the late-70's and 80s stuff.

That said, it still seems to be more than just coincidence how closely KRTH is now mimicking the walrus in San Diego. Where CBS FM in new York and the oldies station here in San Francisco play many of these same well tested tracks, there is definitely a difference in their overall playlists. Not all oldies/classic hits stations sound the same. Just wondering.

San Diego and LA have rather similar demographics, and share, beyond proximity, a variety of other common elements. It's not surprising that stations in both markets with the same target might be quite similar. However, KOSF in San Francisco ranks even lower than KRTH in 25-54... maybe because they are not researching and are using a multi-market safe list... a big mistake. Of course, their billing is off about 70% since the year 1998, so go figure.

 

[davideduardo]

And I grew up listening to KFWB, KRLA, KHJ and KDAY, all of which played music from several different formats. Do you really think a station that played "Feliciano, Fender and Shakira" could not be successful?

No.

Fender is a Tejano artist who had a crossover or two. Unknown to most Hispanics and irrelevant to most non-Hispanics

Feliciano had how many hits in English? And, other than a Christmas song, nearly no mainstream hits in Latin America, save his native Puerto Rico.

Shakira, like Gloria Estefan, is over. Practically none of her songs test any more against any demo.

Again, nobody would listen. Disparate groups and artists with now-limited appeal.

 

[Thomps2525]

Radio has evolved over the past 50 years and the listening audience has become greatly fragmented, as have radio formats...but I thought you'd like to see some of the "disparate groups and artists" who were on the KFWB Fabulous Forty of October 19, 1963, fifty years ago today: Ray Charles, Rusty Draper, Skeeter Davis, Steve Allen, Bobby Bare, Jan & Dean, Nat "King" Cole, Los Indios Tabajaras, the O'Jays, the Surfaris and the Village Stompers. There was also a Spanish-language hit, Keith Colley's Enamorado.

http://www.oldiesloon.com/ca/kfwb631019.htm

 

[michael hagerty]

Radio has evolved over the past 50 years and the listening audience has become greatly fragmented, as have radio formats...but I thought you'd like to see some of the "disparate groups and artists" who were on the KFWB Fabulous Forty of October 19, 1963, fifty years ago today: Ray Charles, Rusty Draper, Skeeter Davis, Steve Allen, Bobby Bare, Jan & Dean, Nat "King" Cole, Los Indios Tabajaras, the O'Jays, the Surfaris and the Village Stompers. There was also a Spanish-language hit, Keith Colley's Enamorado.

http://www.oldiesloon.com/ca/kfwb631019.htm

Which, again, is relevant on what planet?

 

[Thomps2525]

I can't answer that question until I do some call-out research and gather some focus groups to take part in an auditorium test.

 

[davideduardo]

I can't answer that question until I do some call-out research and gather some focus groups to take part in an auditorium test.

A focus group is a small (8 to 12 people generally) group of respondents who sit with a moderator and chat about feelings and perceptions. Radio might use focus groups to discuss morning shows or overall station images.

An auditorium music test is quantitative research, done in groups of 50 to 100 people typically. Respondents respond with specific answers such as multiple choice or scale questions and do not chat or interact.

Thus, a "focus group" can not "take part in an auditorium test".

 

[semoochie]

Do you have any thoughts as to why the Oldies format didn't slowly evolve, dropping songs that people under 55 couldn't relate to, while adding another year, one year at a time, instead suddenly removing nearly all remaining traces of 1955-63, in one fell swoop?

 

[michael hagerty]

Do you have any thoughts as to why the Oldies format didn't slowly evolve, dropping songs that people under 55 couldn't relate to, while adding another year, one year at a time, instead suddenly removing nearly all remaining traces of 1955-63, in one fell swoop?

Yes. It allowed itself to be held hostage by the older half of the Baby Boomers, who (as a group), rejected most music recorded after 1972. It tried to mitigate the damage at first by identifying with the music of 1956-72 and hoping they could sell "good times, great oldies" to people in their early-to-mid 40s, but it never really worked, and it was less and less effective with each passing year.

The perspective that is most enlightening:

When "Music of Your Life" debuted in 1978, it was aiming for a 55+ audience and it played songs between 20 and 40 years old.

In 2005, the last year before Oldies KRTH became Classic Hits KRTH, it was aiming for a 25-54 audience and it played songs between 33 and 49 years old.

KRTH was heading for a cliff. Jhani Kaye put on the brakes, stopped with the front wheels an inch from the edge, very carefully did a Y (not a U) turn and got the station facing the right way. That took 8 years. Rick Thomas's job now is to put his foot down on the accelerator and get up to cruising speed quickly.

 

[Thomps2525]

Somebody will have to explain to me exactly how Satisfaction, Light My Fire and American Pie ceased being oldies and became "classic hits."

Michael, when KRTH first went to an oldies format wasn't the word "oldie" banned? If I remember correctly, the station had a KHJ-style format but with oldies instead of currents and they didn't want any references to songs as "oldies" so listeners didn't think about their own advancing age. At some point, though, the word became acceptable because KRTH starting using a jingle that said "Oldies radio, K-Earth 101."

 

[michael hagerty]

Somebody will have to explain to me exactly how Satisfaction, Light My Fire and American Pie ceased being oldies and became "classic hits."

Michael, when KRTH first went to an oldies format wasn't the word "oldie" banned? If I remember correctly, the station had a KHJ-style format but with oldies instead of currents and they didn't want any references to songs as "oldies" so listeners didn't think about their own advancing age. At some point, though, the word became acceptable because KRTH starting using a jingle that said "Oldies radio, K-Earth 101."

It's terminology, Steve. Nothing more. You use what people react positively to and you don't use what they don't. And that changes over time.

As for your recollection, I guess we have to define which time you're talking about...when KRTH launched as an oldies station in 1972, when it returned to oldies after a 9-year run as Adult Contemporary in 1986 or when Bill Drake brought in Morgan, Steele, Beau Weaver, Humble Harve and all the Boss Radio formatics?