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The New York Dance Music Coalition "Refocus"

Getting back to Tony.....not trying to argue......just representing the OTHER side.

If Dance music is an ocean and La Bouche is at the center of the ocean and Rihanna next to the shore.
There are tons of people very happy to just get their feet wet with Rihanna without EVER going any deeper. The idea that Hip-Hop crossovers are the key to opening the Dance vault does not float.

So we draw a line in the sand. This is where Dance music ends and where "other genre" starts. Then
along comes the next quasi-Dance tune.....and we draw the line a little farther, etc. etc. etc. until there is no purpose of even having a line at all. Let's just merge all songs/formats into one great big melting pot...... a polka song followed by a Hip-Hop song followed by a Rock song (that should make everybody happy) wrong.
 
gregg75 said:
Getting back to Tony.....not trying to argue......just representing the OTHER side.

If Dance music is an ocean and La Bouche is at the center of the ocean and Rihanna next to the shore.
There are tons of people very happy to just get their feet wet with Rihanna without EVER going any deeper. The idea that Hip-Hop crossovers are the key to opening the Dance vault does not float.

So we draw a line in the sand. This is where Dance music ends and where "other genre" starts. Then
along comes the next quasi-Dance tune.....and we draw the line a little farther, etc. etc. etc. until there is no purpose of even having a line at all. Let's just merge all songs/formats into one great big melting pot...... a polka song followed by a Hip-Hop song followed by a Rock song (that should make everybody happy) wrong.
Click to expand...

All good Gregg! :) What I mean by an "argument" here is basically discussing our differing opinions in a productive way. So to that here I go.

What I should have explained with the casual/core argument is the fact that there are more casual fans that listen to dance music than the core fans in the U.S. Granted, EVERYWHERE plays Rihanna and all of these artists. But you have VERY few that would play Sylvia Tosun, Sak Noel. If dance is going in this direction where things are looking up (and you can add the EDM DJ/producers that are taking on this "rock star" status as of late) it would really be a wise decision for "corporate" to look into our sounds as a format.

Because when you think about it, sure Rihanna helps and if it gets most people to tune in, that's great. But let them hear Nadia Ali. Let them hear Morgan Page. Let them hear Kaskade because the more it gets in their conscience, they will expand the thinking. It's normal when you like something to want more of that something. That's why I don't knock the pop side of things.

And KDM nailed it with the 90's argument. :) Even Hot 103/97 and Power 106 were playing some pop material (Pet Shop Boys, Simply Red, Nu Shooz) and yet artists such as Crystal Waters, Captain Hollywood Project, Haddaway made it through. People still remember them. :) We gotta allow it to happen again, that's all I'm saying. You don't have to like it but let's stand down so that those casual fans can come through.
 
I believe both sides are right: Yes, pop artists are currently co-opting the dance sound and it is very popular. [These same artists will likely be releasing dubstep (or insert flavor of the year sound here) records in a year if that is the next big thing to hit at CHR]. People can enjoy the fact that pop artists are now releasing dancy songs or they can choose not to enjoy it. That is almost beside the point, because I think the main point is that there currently may be a potentially thin window of opportunity for the pure dance sound to gain mass commercial acceptance with the pop artists as the "gateway" in a dance radio format that features these mainstream acts but also includes pure dance acts. Those stations could evolve over time just as the modern rock or active rock formats have since their inceptions in the 80s and 90s. But it seems the window of opportunity is better now for pure dance radio stations to launch than it has been since the disco era ended.
 
This blended "gateway" that you refer to is a lot like WKTU sounds today. If that format was working
then there would be more than 5 gateway/Dance (non-internet) stations broadcasting it. Now, it may be working for NYC and a few other places................but it's no Rhythmic AC format (which was widely broadcast until it also faded).

I think people like things to have boundaries and separations. Georgia doesn't want to be part of
Alabama. You don't want to put carrots in an apple pie. Why put Pop remixes and Hip-Hop crossover
into the Dance cake you're making? Some may like it (WKTU) but most radio listeners around the
U.S. do not.

Sak Noel is a perfect example of the status of U.S. Dance radio and the U.S. Dance sound. It was a
huge hit across Europe but only made a little splash here. Because it didn't fit into the rigid Dance
mold that radio has given us. "It's our way or the highway"............U.S. radio stations dictate to the
Dance community. You play by our rules or "we don't play" at all. That attutude is what needs to be changed.
 
gregg75 said:
Sak Noel is a perfect example of the status of U.S. Dance radio and the U.S. Dance sound. It was a
huge hit across Europe but only made a little splash here. Because it didn't fit into the rigid Dance
mold that radio has given us. "It's our way or the highway"............U.S. radio stations dictate to the
Dance community. You play by our rules or "we don't play" at all. That attutude is what needs to be changed.
Click to expand...

That also depends on the casual listener. It's up to them to accept or find the "new" instead of the status quo, and this is the tricky part. Ask the casual listener about iHeartRadio, many will know. Ask them about TuneIn Radio, you get a ???. This is where you need to be patient and know the basics of how to welcome a casual listener into a new genre they never heard of on the radio, or on TV for that matter. There are so many open options out there that people don't know, it's up to us to introduce if nobody else is going to. Slowly, but surely, you will see more and more casual listeners enter into a new musical bliss. Don't get frustrated if people don't want change or accept something new because you will end up "talking to a brick wall." Go for the ones that are open to any format, you know, the ones that like "anything to dance to."
 
gregg75 said:
This blended "gateway" that you refer to is a lot like WKTU sounds today. If that format was working
then there would be more than 5 gateway/Dance (non-internet) stations broadcasting it. Now, it may be working for NYC and a few other places................but it's no Rhythmic AC format (which was widely broadcast until it also faded).

I think people like things to have boundaries and separations. Georgia doesn't want to be part of
Alabama. You don't want to put carrots in an apple pie. Why put Pop remixes and Hip-Hop crossover
into the Dance cake you're making? Some may like it (WKTU) but most radio listeners around the
U.S. do not.

Sak Noel is a perfect example of the status of U.S. Dance radio and the U.S. Dance sound. It was a
huge hit across Europe but only made a little splash here. Because it didn't fit into the rigid Dance
mold that radio has given us. "It's our way or the highway"............U.S. radio stations dictate to the
Dance community. You play by our rules or "we don't play" at all. That attutude is what needs to be changed.
Click to expand...

Actually, regarding the 'KTU argument as a "gateway", that's not a good example.

'KTU plays what is popular to their demographics (mainly women 25-54) and are successful at it. Those fans are happy with the LMFAO, Rihanna, Flo Rida and recurrents. 'KTU would NEVER touch a pure dance artist....the "closest" for them is Kim Sozzi or Lucas Prata, and that's because they LIVE here and are still very popular on a local level since the older audience wouldn't necessarily associate with the current edgier sounds. Aside from Hollywood Hamilton's Remix show, I don't listen to them because they don't cater to my needs. Then again, I'm not the average 45 year older whose clubbing days have been long past and follows the current sound as if I WAS still in college. :)

Sak Noel's "Loca People" is getting play on Sirius/XM's BPM and I'm sure Brett (Z88.9) and Jon (C-89.5) has it on rotation. But then think of it this way.....Edward Maya ("Stereo Love") and Alexandra Stan ("Mr. Saxobeat") are in that same category where the track was HUGE in Europe. Yet they made it through successfully on the pop stations and I just think it's only time before that happens with Sak Noel. There is a clean version where the girl doesn't go "WTF". lol.

Another credit for radio TRYING to break in new material actually goes to the mixers of Saturday Night dance parties on pop stations. Most remixers may stick close to the format as ordered by PD's (I know that was the case for the Pulse 87 guys) but then there are some remixers out there that are given that leeway in terms of placing something in the mix that's not part of rotation. I know the 92.3 Now (NYC) remixers are given that. You may hear the remixed versions of tracks, that are on rotation, but then you wiil also hear something that's very popular in the dance music community, but not on rotation, that is given that window of opportunity.

I suppose my point is that radio isn't being a "dictator". Look at reggaeton. When that was a big deal 10 years ago, the Spanish stations outside of Puerto Rico (that had been doing it for years since the sound originated in the Caribbean) gave it a shot, called it "hurban". I think the window of opportunity for dance in our brand is RIGHT NOW. And this time around, I believe the audience wants to step over "the border" to explore more. But we can't purely splash them with our brand if they are not used to it. It does take time. Some folks will eventually understand it and others will be satisfied with where they are. That's okay.

For me, and this is New York thinking here, the big conflict is that do we really go on an EDM slant to such a format (and forget about all of the freestyle fans that loved the material from that era?) or do we consider the freestyle fans and only progress to a certain degree of dance but not go "full blown" on what is the "EDM revolution" where the DJ's have that influence along with the current sounds that go with it. IMHO, for me, I go with the "former" since that IS the trend right now.
 
On the money

gregg75 said:
If Dance music is an ocean and La Bouche is at the center of the ocean and Rihanna next to the shore.
There are tons of people very happy to just get their feet wet with Rihanna without EVER going any deeper. The idea that Hip-Hop crossovers are the key to opening the Dance vault does not float.
Click to expand...

gregg75 said:
This blended "gateway" that you refer to is a lot like WKTU sounds today. If that format was working then there would be more than 5 gateway/Dance (non-internet) stations broadcasting it. Now, it may be working for NYC and a few other places................but it's no Rhythmic AC format (which was widely broadcast until it also faded).

I think people like things to have boundaries and separations. Georgia doesn't want to be part of Alabama. You don't want to put carrots in an apple pie. Why put Pop remixes and Hip-Hop crossover into the Dance cake you're making? Some may like it (WKTU) but most radio listeners around the U.S. do not.

Sak Noel is a perfect example of the status of U.S. Dance radio and the U.S. Dance sound. It was a huge hit across Europe but only made a little splash here. Because it didn't fit into the rigid Dance mold that radio has given us. "It's our way or the highway"............U.S. radio stations dictate to the Dance community. You play by our rules or "we don't play" at all. That attutude is what needs to be changed.
Click to expand...

Ditto and ditto.
 
As mentioned by the OP in an earlier post, the 'gateway' format he is talking about is nothing like KTU. It is way edgier. Those who would not like a station playing the pop crossovers alongside some pure dance tracks are similar to those who dig college rock radio and would never get into a commercial alternative format. To each their own. :)
 
If you judge this dance trend by the amount of dance artists who have been able to tap into the pop or even urban markets then this has been a total failure. I even hinted about this about two years ago. The major labels have taken the edgy dance sounds and have added a big name DJ for credence and have slapped their pop artists on and voila....we have a dance song on the radio.

Ironically the, only only dance artists who have crossed over are European based and those are very far and in between.But as far as having local grown artists be the face of this dance movement there has been a conscious effort to shut them out.

It's very similar to what happen to the freestyle movement. You had pop acts like Taylor Dayne,Pet Shop Boys,Madonna,Jody Watley and Debbie Gibson all scoring huge hits with songs that borrowed from the edgy club-freestyle sound of the time.Yet,the most cherished freestyle acts of the times(on independent labels) had minimal success crossing over. That would be the TKAs',George Lamond,Safire,Judy Torres,Noels'. And those are the ones headlining the big freestyle shows today. Some food for thought.
 
As this theme keeps coming up on this board, it does seem to be our "fork in the road" and the
Dance community as a whole. Some want to continue with what we have and hope for the best.
Others think it's time to change course because what we have is not working/getting the job done.
So, you're either happy with the way things are or unhappy because change is overdue....take
your pick.
 
gregg75 said:
As this theme keeps coming up on this board, it does seem to be our "fork in the road" and the
Dance community as a whole. Some want to continue with what we have and hope for the best.
Others think it's time to change course because what we have is not working/getting the job done.
So, you're either happy with the way things are or unhappy because change is overdue....take
your pick.
Click to expand...

For me, it's actually BOTH sides.

And I'll say it again, if Rihanna, Flo Rida, Pitbull, Usher and other artists are teaming up with dance branded producers/DJ's to create danceable commercial tracks that people are actually listening to, I am fine with that in the sense that this can help EXPAND our genre to open them up to our side (whether those fans "crossover" or not. But at the same time, we want more of OUR branded artists on there and it's not happening as quick as it should, considering the fact that EDM IS on the rise and is NOT just about the world class "rockstar" DJ's but artists that are solely branded for our music yet the "mainstream" is apprehensive to take things further despite the amount of press noting how dance music oriented events have really shot up over the past 3 years or so.

And let's face it...5 years ago, NONE of this was happening on the pop-commercial side for us. We are in that cycle right now :). More can be done but until then, I am enjoying all aspects, in hopes and anticipation that things progress further.
 
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