The numbers

[davideduardo]

David, what in the world are you talking about, your $800-$1200 vs. $100-$125 is rate based, not CPP based. and billing has very little affect on CPP, market conditions affect CPP. If you don't know, just say "I don't know". SF and ATL have higher CPP's than LA for numerous reasons, none of which have anything to do with total market billing. Nor does it matter what corporate infrastructure issues you bring up, people live and work in the IE and more do so every year, as opposed to LA, where there are people leaving the market... simple economics, uptrending vs. downtrending.

Cost Per Point is the value an agency sets as a goal for each rating point in a buy in a specific market. A point in LA represents 1% of the 12+ population in the broadest demo and that is rougly 108,000 persons. A point in the IE represents about 16,000 persons. Thus, by straight math, a buyer will expect to get a CPP target in the IE that is about a tenth of that of LA (factoring in the smaller market size discount).

A point in San Francisco is 59,000 persons. The relationship is just under 2:1 in favor of LA. San Francisco bills about half of what LA bills. See the relationship? In most markets, the billing relationship to population is in proportion to that population save markets that have economic woes (Detroit, Stockton, the IE, Utica, etc.) Therefore, the CPP will be in pretty close lockstep with market size after discounting local economic conditions or differences in numbers of viable stations.

A 25-54 buy in LA will base the CPP pricing on each point in demo being worth about 57,000 persons. An agency will put out a call for rates for the buy, sepcifying a CPP goal. Stations will try to get on the buy by meeting the goal. If the goal is not realistic, then they will take a pass and not submit. Or they will submit with pricing that does not meet the goal the agency set out for. A station at the bottom end of the top 10 like KRCD with a 25-54 rating of 0.6 might submit a $600 rate, or a $1000 CPP which would likely meet any 25-54 goal in LA. A station at the top end, like KLVE, might submit a $1400 rate, which is above the $1000 but justifiable because of the high delivery.

In the IE, against 25-54, a ratings point is 9000 persons. That means that the CPP should be around $125 to $150 in that market. It is about delivery of the persons a point delivers in each market. So the CPP is very related to market size, and that is why the smaller the market, the lower the market billings.

A comparison of two station with comparable shares (and, thus, rating) in LA and SF will find the LA station bills about twice as much. That is because the CPM, CPP, audience delivery, etc., is twice as much in LA. Good examples are KGO in San Francisco and KFI in LA, comparable in 25-54 share in 06 (which we have full year billing data for). KFI in '06 billed $33 million, while KFI did $63 million. See the relationship? Both are talkers, both have about the same inventory and both are market leaders.

Please make your reply brief so I can read it all, also, please try to stay on topic.

You are the moderator?

 

[purdyum]

This is where the TAKE IT OUTSIDE alert will drop in, as well it should. David, if you believe that you can avoid the issue by typing a lot of words, you are right. However, you have proven once again that you have very little knowledge of how advertising is bought or sold. Anyone can quote a methodology, but only the people who are involved in the process can tell you what actual values are because they change so rapidly.

I refer to the original point, I found it interesting that Univision is not going to serve the IE. I believe it is a mistake, but hopefully your competitors will get a strong foothold there, that is, if there are any broadcasters left that can look to the future instead of being paralyzed by the issues of today.

 

[davideduardo]

This is where the TAKE IT OUTSIDE alert will drop in, as well it should.

If the TIO drops, it is based on your telling me to "keep it brief and not post if I do not know."

The fact is, I do know. I have been a GSM and an NSM, in fact.

CPP is an agency metric, set by the media department as a cost goal for a rating point in the target demo in each market bought. It is directly proportional to the "size" in persons of a point (1% of the universe... meaning the demo being looked at) and indirectly influenced by competition, market economy, etc.

So the CPP in Market 26 is going to be about 1/8 to 1/10th of the cost of a point in market #2. Simple.

If you disagree with this, I'd love to know why.

David, if you believe that you can avoid the issue by typing a lot of words, you are right.

Since not just you and I are the readers of this thread, I feel it is important to clarify terms so others may understand or contribute.

However, you have proven once again that you have very little knowledge of how advertising is bought or sold. Anyone can quote a methodology, but only the people who are involved in the process can tell you what actual values are because they change so rapidly.

CPPs tend to be within an established range, and vay in accordance with market inventory, seasonality, etc. But the range is not that wide.

I refer to the original point, I found it interesting that Univision is not going to serve the IE.

I fail to understand why you single out one company. No LA broadcaster has any particular interest in serving a market that will produce no additional revenue because, comparitively, it is much, much, much, smaller than the home market.

This is why adding the IE to the LA market for Arbitron was voted down.

Further, only about a dozen LA signals, out of 87, are at all competitive in the IE.

I believe it is a mistake, but hopefully your competitors will get a strong foothold there,

The SBS stations in LA have no useful signal in the IE. Liberman's LA stations don't. Entravision has three that do not cover the IE at all, and one that does, but which they chose to have designated by Arbitron as an LA station. Univision, of 5 stations, has one that covers the IE adequately in most areas.

No signals, no money = no interest.

that is, if there are any broadcasters left that can look to the future instead of being paralyzed by the issues of today.

I should have asked before, but here goes: why do you think LA stations should focus on the IE? In the face of a local recession, very little local radio revenue (less than 6% of LA revenue), inability of most LA stations to cover the market, and far lower population and zero future growth based on available water, it seems silly to look outside the world's largest billing market to a very small one for opportunity.

 

[Hunter]

I should have asked before, but here goes: why do you think LA stations should focus on the IE? In the face of a local recession, very little local radio revenue (less than 6% of LA revenue), inability of most LA stations to cover the market, and far lower population and zero future growth based on available water, it seems silly to look outside the world's largest billing market to a very small one for opportunity.

Dave, since you probably have this info easily at hand, just out of curiosity, what did each of the top - say 5 stations in the IE bill according to the last figures that you have....for the comparable time period, how does that compare with each of the LA signals that also cover the IE?

I don't know if that could help Purdyum or you, but I'd be interested.

 

[radioresearcher]

This is where the TAKE IT OUTSIDE alert will drop in, as well it should. David, if you believe that you can avoid the issue by typing a lot of words, you are right. However, you have proven once again that you have very little knowledge of how advertising is bought or sold. Anyone can quote a methodology, but only the people who are involved in the process can tell you what actual values are because they change so rapidly.

I refer to the original point, I found it interesting that Univision is not going to serve the IE. I believe it is a mistake, but hopefully your competitors will get a strong foothold there, that is, if there are any broadcasters left that can look to the future instead of being paralyzed by the issues of today.

There are three local broadcasters serving the Inland Empire. Lazer who has 101.7 and 105.7 (soon to be 105.5) and KCAL-AM. De Luna who has 100.9 - and now we have a major broadcaster in Liberman who is programming and selling KRQB locally.

Univision trying to sell the I.E. against the local broadcasters would be the equivalent of asking KKGO to sell out there against KFRG or Clear Channel to have KIIS sell against KGGI.

Local advertisers out there can't afford the L.A. rate and the Inland Empire stations do an excellent job serving those needs and reaching the consumers that the advertisers need.

Keep in mind also that Liberman will have a second FM there at some point soon - and Lazer is upgrading his 105.7 Riverside county signal to full market. There will be three full signal Spanish-language FM's locally programmed and targeted sometime in the next year ...

So why would Univision want to compete with that when they could focus on their market.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: The numbers: a sidebar

So the CPP in Market 26 is going to be about 1/8 to 1/10th of the cost of a point in market #2. Simple.

Here is a small "fair usage" quote from Entrepreneur Magazine by way of an extract in Yahoo. The article is about the best and worst places to buy homes. At #3 on the "avoid" list we find:

http://www.entrepreneur.com/money/personalfinance/article189454.html

"Riverside/San Bernardino, California: Even those lucky homeowners that bought before the boom are feeling it now. Riverside and San Bernardino counties in Southern California consistently lead California in foreclosures and rank in the top three metro areas nationally. The prices have plummeted, and jobs in the area are scarce. People moved there due to lack of affordability in Orange and Los Angeles counties (where their jobs were), so it's a commuter's area. Now that prices in the two counties have dropped, people can live close to their jobs. Although I grew up in Riverside County, I could never recommend it to anyone looking to buy a home"

This would be a confirmation of other expert's claims that the area is a no-growth market for the next decade.


[Link added as a courtesy by Radio Info]

 

[davideduardo]

Univision trying to sell the I.E. against the local broadcasters would be the equivalent of asking KKGO to sell out there against KFRG or Clear Channel to have KIIS sell against KGGI.

That, in few words, sums up my point.

Local advertisers out there can't afford the L.A. rate and the Inland Empire stations do an excellent job serving those needs and reaching the consumers that the advertisers need.

I think the poster's point is that we should be "adding" the IE numbers to the LA numbers to get better rates. This would indicate someone who has never tried this... agencies are fond of getting fringe coverage as a bonus, like remotes and n/c spots... but getting them to pay for IE coverage is difficult. What is your experience on this?

Keep in mind also that Liberman will have a second FM there at some point soon - and Lazer is upgrading his 105.7 Riverside county signal to full market. There will be three full signal Spanish-language FM's locally programmed and targeted sometime in the next year ...

Liberman's 104.7 will, although downsized, be a very nice IE signal. The improved KXRS signal is going to be pretty much full market, too.

So why would Univision want to compete with that when they could focus on their market.

Especially since most of our signals don't provide a useful signal in that market.

 

[radioresearcher]

Univision trying to sell the I.E. against the local broadcasters would be the equivalent of asking KKGO to sell out there against KFRG or Clear Channel to have KIIS sell against KGGI.

That, in few words, sums up my point.

Local advertisers out there can't afford the L.A. rate and the Inland Empire stations do an excellent job serving those needs and reaching the consumers that the advertisers need.

I think the poster's point is that we should be "adding" the IE numbers to the LA numbers to get better rates. This would indicate someone who has never tried this... agencies are fond of getting fringe coverage as a bonus, like remotes and n/c spots... but getting them to pay for IE coverage is difficult. What is your experience on this?

Keep in mind also that Liberman will have a second FM there at some point soon - and Lazer is upgrading his 105.7 Riverside county signal to full market. There will be three full signal Spanish-language FM's locally programmed and targeted sometime in the next year ...

Liberman's 104.7 will, although downsized, be a very nice IE signal. The improved KXRS signal is going to be pretty much full market, too.

So why would Univision want to compete with that when they could focus on their market.

Especially since most of our signals don't provide a useful signal in that market.

104.7 will go on the 96.1 tower in Cherry Valley ... it may have less coverage as 96.1 as Gold Coast is moving KCAQ to a new tower ... and 96.1 isn't short spaced to anything close by.

105.5 is 6 kw and 100.9 is getting an upgrade.

I disagree about the long term growth of the Inland Empire. It will be there. There's simply not enough land in Southern California for all of the population growth. The problem with the I.E. housing is that it got too expensive too fast and now it's coming back down.

I'd sure rather be there than Palm Springs... but that's me.

Stater Bros. is primarily an I.E. supermarket. Why would they buy L.A. There are a lot of local and regional retailers...

 

[davideduardo]

I disagree about the long term growth of the Inland Empire. It will be there. There's simply not enough land in Southern California for all of the population growth. The problem with the I.E. housing is that it got too expensive too fast and now it's coming back down.

Did you see the initial results of the water usage meeting at the Morongo Casino so far this week? Recommedation: curb growth by not authorizing new construction of residential developments and industrial facilities in western Riv. and S. B. counties immediately. This follows the refusal to grant a water use guarantee to the new Sketchers national distribution facility in W. Riv. county last month.... huge warehouse and distribution facility, over 2000 jobs.

I'd sure rather be there than Palm Springs... but that's me.

The Coachella Valley has clean air, and only 400,000 persons. It has water from three sources, so is much better off than the IE. It's also a very friendly place to live.
]

 

[purdyum]

David, thank you. You have summed up my points very nicely...it took you a VERY long time to get there, but you epitomize major market group radio thinking. "let's use flawed research, and back it up with a total lack of understanding for the patterns of our listeners".

No wonder all the groups are in big trouble. You made the determination that the IE is no non-growth market in spite of a US Census report and backed it up with "water usage" from the cochella valley...You also have a total lack of understanding the advertising side of the business...anyone can quote the methodology of a ratings book and a definition for a CPP, but you lack the ability to put into practice.

No matter, by the way, according to your logic, auto sales and housing sales are down substantially...that can only mean that we will be living in tents and walking to work.

 

[davideduardo]

David, thank you. You have summed up my points very nicely...it took you a VERY long time to get there, but you epitomize major market group radio thinking. "let's use flawed research, and back it up with a total lack of understanding for the patterns of our listeners".

For demographics, we use the same source as Arbitron, Claritas. They are the best demographers in America, and use all kinds of support data that the Census, which is a decennial head count, can not use. The information we have is that growth in the IE is going to be slow or non-existent in the next 5-year period. Looking further ahead in an area that is significantly composed of immigrants is either unrealistic or just crazy.

No wonder all the groups are in big trouble. You made the determination that the IE is no non-growth market in spite of a US Census report and backed it up with "water usage" from the cochella valley...

The water usage conference I referred to is the one that took place this week and covers all of SoCal from Ventura to Bishop and south. When Riverside County can not give Sketchers a water use certificate for a major distribution center that would have created several thousand jobs, that means that the whole area is in peril. The Census has done no count for 8 years, while Claritas updates annually based on data like car registrations, phone and electric installs, etc., to supplement the Census... and the growth is very slow for the next years. And that data, dated fall of last year, did not take into account the mortgage and banking issue, nor a recession of sorts.

You also have a total lack of understanding the advertising side of the business...anyone can quote the methodology of a ratings book and a definition for a CPP, but you lack the ability to put into practice.

Huh? What do you base that on? I have a rather good understanding of Arbitron, based on 38 years of experience, visits to Beltsville, Laurel and Columbia, etc. I have even conducted seminars for Arbitron on ratings, diary review and other issues on a number of occasions. If you want further credentials on my knowledge of the system, call Dr. Ed Cohen and ask him whether I grok or don't.

No matter, by the way, according to your logic, auto sales and housing sales are down substantially...that can only mean that we will be living in tents and walking to work.

Nobody said that. However, the IE looks like a dismal place for growth in the next few years... maybe longer.

And you continue to ignore the fact that nearly all LA stations do not have usable signals in the IE (almost all listening comes from inside the 64 dbu contour as a national norm, and about 85% in the 70 dbu.) so there is no reason to be concerned about places where there will be no listening due to no signal. And, as I mentioned, of 5 stations we have, 4 do not have usable signals in most of the market. Why would we try to play barefoot soccer?

 

[radioresearcher]

David, thank you. You have summed up my points very nicely...it took you a VERY long time to get there, but you epitomize major market group radio thinking. "let's use flawed research, and back it up with a total lack of understanding for the patterns of our listeners".

For demographics, we use the same source as Arbitron, Claritas. They are the best demographers in America, and use all kinds of support data that the Census, which is a decennial head count, can not use. The information we have is that growth in the IE is going to be slow or non-existent in the next 5-year period. Looking further ahead in an area that is significantly composed of immigrants is either unrealistic or just crazy.

No wonder all the groups are in big trouble. You made the determination that the IE is no non-growth market in spite of a US Census report and backed it up with "water usage" from the cochella valley...

The water usage conference I referred to is the one that took place this week and covers all of SoCal from Ventura to Bishop and south. When Riverside County can not give Sketchers a water use certificate for a major distribution center that would have created several thousand jobs, that means that the whole area is in peril. The Census has done no count for 8 years, while Claritas updates annually based on data like car registrations, phone and electric installs, etc., to supplement the Census... and the growth is very slow for the next years. And that data, dated fall of last year, did not take into account the mortgage and banking issue, nor a recession of sorts.

You also have a total lack of understanding the advertising side of the business...anyone can quote the methodology of a ratings book and a definition for a CPP, but you lack the ability to put into practice.

Huh? What do you base that on? I have a rather good understanding of Arbitron, based on 38 years of experience, visits to Beltsville, Laurel and Columbia, etc. I have even conducted seminars for Arbitron on ratings, diary review and other issues on a number of occasions. If you want further credentials on my knowledge of the system, call Dr. Ed Cohen and ask him whether I grok or don't.

No matter, by the way, according to your logic, auto sales and housing sales are down substantially...that can only mean that we will be living in tents and walking to work.

Nobody said that. However, the IE looks like a dismal place for growth in the next few years... maybe longer.

And you continue to ignore the fact that nearly all LA stations do not have usable signals in the IE (almost all listening comes from inside the 64 dbu contour as a national norm, and about 85% in the 70 dbu.) so there is no reason to be concerned about places where there will be no listening due to no signal. And, as I mentioned, of 5 stations we have, 4 do not have usable signals in most of the market. Why would we try to play barefoot soccer?

David is correct on most counts. A lot of the L.A. signals simply don't cover enough of the I.E. metro. There is some local radio revenue out there. I do have to admit, the water thing is a bit of an issue.

My problem with Palm Springs is it is not serviceable for people to commute to Los Angeles or Orange County.

It still amazes me there are only two Spanish stations in that market - while everyone else fights for that 3 share in English.

 

[davideduardo]

David is correct on most counts. A lot of the L.A. signals simply don't cover enough of the I.E. metro. There is some local radio revenue out there. I do have to admit, the water thing is a bit of an issue.

I had never realizedd how close to the edge we are in SoCal on water until I read a multi-part series written for the Desert Sun in Palm Springs. It appears that many projects, including housing, retail and manufacturing / warehousing that require, for financing, a "water guarantee" from the local county government are not getting them. This will slow growth, increase unemployment, and have some interesting immigration aspects, too.

My problem with Palm Springs is it is not serviceable for people to commute to Los Angeles or Orange County.

No, it's a 3 hour drive in rush hour, downtown to downtown.

It still amazes me there are only two Spanish stations in that market - while everyone else fights for that 3 share in English.

I find this interdesting, too. The combined shares on the top two, both Spanish, are 25 to 30, with all the other stations chipping up the rest. No AM covers the whole market, either. I thought about buying an FM or two, but the prices for single stations were close to being equal to the market billing and I could not rationalize it. Resort markets tend to be overpriced , maybe due to the visitors who would like to have a station in a place they can also enjoy... Traverse City, MI, comes to mind, too.

 

[Stewy]

Enjoyable reading. If I may add, didn't the Gross Rating Point and therefore the Cost Per Point actually originate from the broadcast television industry a few decades ago? And this is not to argue but a personal observation: if an agency buys using only CPP as the basis to place and size schedules they often will short their client the needed level of true frequency that bring excellent results; alas, the CPP has turned out to be the justification of the buy rather than results. Of course the difficulty with frequency in LA is the huge cost to achieve frequency.

While this medium we are presently using speeds communication and data manipulation far beyond our wildest dreams of twenty five years ago, I am afraid that it has become a crutch. Most fearfully, many of the agencies today have no back ground in planning and buying any other way.

I also agree that the biggest concern for SoCal is water.

 

[davideduardo]

Enjoyable reading. If I may add, didn't the Gross Rating Point and therefore the Cost Per Point actually originate from the broadcast television industry a few decades ago? And this is not to argue but a personal observation: if an agency buys using only CPP as the basis to place and size schedules they often will short their client the needed level of true frequency that bring excellent results; alas, the CPP has turned out to be the justification of the buy rather than results. Of course the difficulty with frequency in LA is the huge cost to achieve frequency.

You are totally correct on your observations. A campaign still has a Grip goal against the target demo, as well as a CPP objective. There will be, for example, a goal of 500 weekly Grips @ $700 per point against persons 25-54 in LA. Then, reach and frequency will determine the ideal match of stations and # of spots to get maximum reach as well as the frequency objective. The stations may never know the r&f goals, but sellers frequently try to sell based on lifesyle differences, etc.

While this medium we are presently using speeds communication and data manipulation far beyond our wildest dreams of twenty five years ago, I am afraid that it has become a crutch.

We are the slaves of the agencies in the larger markets, since we have to offer programming and rates that the agencies want to buy. In my last GSM position in a top 15 market, about 95% of our sales was agency, so we had to play the game. On the other hand, we used market omnibus studies and pantry checks and stuff to show buyers how specific products, not categories, indexed against our listeners and that proved effective and set us apart from other stations.

Most fearfully, many of the agencies today have no back ground in planning and buying any other way.

In many cases, this is why buying services are used... it's all about price. Still, radio is a small part of any budget, and is primarily used to add frequency in many events. The fact that there are so many stations makes radio buying hard... lots of paperwork, lots of invoices, so you can't blame agencies for not spending a lot of time on the medium.

I also agree that the biggest concern for SoCal is water.

One of the highlights of the comments from one of the participants in the water summit this week is, "we will have water, but it will cost a lot more." That's a key factor in growth in any market... Victor Valley, Palm Springs, IE, SD, LA, Ventura... in SoCal... as well as Las Vegas, PHX, etc.

 

[purdyum]

OMG, I have entered the twilight zone. David, I agree, you know ratings. I also maintain by your posts that you have no concept of the practice or use on the ad sales side. If anyone has a question about that, go back and look how David avoids the issue and points to the ratings. And to call Arbitron the PREMIER ratings compnay is a bit of a stretch. And, don't diss the census. I think thier sample size is a bit more reliable than Arbitron (we are just talking about pure numbers).

Water useage is an indicator, home ownership is an indicator, nobody denies the growth of the IE, the question here is, should a company like UB serve the area...look at the ratings you have there...and you said the company makes no effort to serve the community...I think you are doing a disservice to the IE.

 

[davideduardo]

OMG, I have entered the twilight zone. David, I agree, you know ratings. I also maintain by your posts that you have no concept of the practice or use on the ad sales side.

Actually, my sales related posts have been amply discussed with sellers as well as coming from my own sales experience.

If anyone has a question about that, go back and look how David avoids the issue

What issue? Your idea that IE numbers will help sell an LA station? They don't, never have, excpet as a "bonus" in the eyes of advertisers.

Or your idea that CPP is not a buyer's benchmark for placing a metric on a buy in each market?

and points to the ratings.

The ratings are te basis for CPP, the way we determine market Grips, and the basis for r&f calculations. Without ratings, we have rate chaos as advertisers can say, "take it or leave it."

And to call Arbitron the PREMIER ratings compnay is a bit of a stretch.

Why? We have seen Pulse, Hooper, Birch, Burke, Mediatrak, Mediatrend, Audits & Surveys and others disappear as they could not get or hold traction against Arbitron because agencies like it and trust it.

And, don't diss the census. I think thier sample size is a bit more reliable than Arbitron (we are just talking about pure numbers).

And we have one Census every 10 years, and the results take nearly a year to release... I'll take Claritas and Arbitron anyway.

The Census does not do radio ratings. I am talking about demographic data, where companies like Claritas (which absorbed Market Statistics) and which uses a combination of the Census data and economic indicators like vehicle registrations, etc. to

Water useage is an indicator, home ownership is an indicator, nobody denies the growth of the IE, the question here is, should a company like UB serve the area...look at the ratings you have there...and you said the company makes no effort to serve the community...I think you are doing a disservice to the IE.

If by "UB" you mean Univision Radio, three of our stations have practically no numbers there and what they have is in-car or at-work likely from locations in the LA market where they have signals. KSCA has gotten default numbers, but can not logically stay at the same level in the future given the signal (the 70 dbu of KSCA covers none of the rated IE market, by the way). KLVE does cover most of it, so it is the only one relevant to the discussion. KLVE has a niche format, unduplicated in the IE. If Liberman does AC on the (potential) new signal, then KLVE will not fare as well as it is not an IE station.

But the real issue is that there is no possible gain for any broadcaster in LA from focusing any attention on a market that is much smaller.

 

[purdyum]

David, did I get it right? Do you believe that a 3 hour commute door to door is reasonable?

And do some fact checking, there are articles from the 50's and 60's that predict a water crisis (in those decades).

And radioresearcher, someone can be correct about facts but wrong when incorrectly putting it into practice. This is about servicing the areas that you serve. UB has 3 stations with good ratings in the IE, yet not only do they not serve the communities, they (David is upper management) dis them as he does the IE calling it insignificant. How can I be the only one bothered by this?

 

[davideduardo]

David, did I get it right? Do you believe that a 3 hour commute door to door is reasonable?

Huh? Where did I say that? If you are referring to the commute time discussion for the Coachella Valley, I was agreeing with the statement that it is too far, time wise, from anyplace in the LA MSA for commuting.

And do some fact checking, there are articles from the 50's and 60's that predict a water crisis (in those decades).

And they were right. But we have moved from prediction to reality, enhanced by the greater interest in the environment today. There is, now, not enough water to sustain the growth of past decades.

And radioresearcher, someone can be correct about facts but wrong when incorrectly putting it into practice. This is about servicing the areas that you serve. UB has 3 stations with good ratings in the IE,

Which is the third station? That's crazy.

yet not only do they not serve the communities, they (David is upper management) dis them as he does the IE calling it insignificant. How can I be the only one bothered by this?

As I said, the stations are licensed in the LA metro, and that is the area where the revenue potential is. There is no way that 3 of our 5 can get any in-market listening, as they have no signal. There is no way another can defend against increased local competiton in-format and inside the market with better signals. And the final station will continue to rise and fall because, for the moment it is unique formatically.

I still have not heard from you where the gain is in serving an area outside our market.

Saying the IE is smaller is not "dissing" the market. LA is about 7 times greater in population and about 15 times larger in market radio revenues. And the IE is going to have a hard time growing in the forseeable future based on the economy and the environment. So, "show me the money."

 

[purdyum]

David, don't you even know your own stations? KRCD is the third station, of course. You have a .6 but have been at almost a 1, which means it shows up. KTNQ even shows up out there.

Fact is, it is market number 26 and Univision doesn't care about it. I hope the people of the IE return the favor.