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The pryer Oldies format

J

JH_Radio

Oldies these days are starting to sound more and more like a Rhythmic Oldies/Classic Hits hydrid. Though I do not mind this format, I equate Oldies to the pryer format of oldies that focused moere on the mid-to-late 50's, till around 1969 or so with an acational 70's tune thrown in for good measure. That format semed to play stuff before the "British Invation", where as these days anything before Beatles tends to be ignored by what oldies stations are left.

Maybe that's why the "Real Oldies" format started? To fill that nitch. Or is it, in fact a nitch?

I don't see why instead of going the 60's-70's route, why stations just don't widen there playlist and have a more mmassive apeal, or why both formats can't exist.

For example, in Philly, though WPEN has a crappy on-air sound, I like Oldies the way they do it better then WOGL. The voiceover guy reminds me of the old WOGL and I also like the jingles. <P ID="signature">______________
John
E-mail: [email protected]
AIM: RainAngelsRule
MSN: [email protected]</P>
 
Good point. The Oldies station I grew up with had a MASSIVE playlist from 1950-1979. It it hit the Bilboard or Cashbox charts (Pop, R&B, Country) they had it and would play it. Also the the DJ's would bring in anything else from the era. that did not. A very local station out of Buford, GA WLKQ Lake 102.3 FM. The station is now Hispanic but it was a great station while it lasted. The ratings are much lower now but I guess the ad revenue is up despite both relying on local advertising. <P ID="signature">______________
In Harmony
From the Bop Shop,
Brian "BD Bopper"</P>
 
> For example, in Philly, though WPEN has a crappy on-air
> sound, I like Oldies the way they do it better then WOGL.
> The voiceover guy reminds me of the old WOGL and I also
> like the jingles.


John,

The voice guy is the same as the old OGL guy. I agree PEN did a nice job but as of October 3 it is dust as it becomes sports.

While they don't play 70's music, check out New Jersey's WMTR at wmtram.com. Great 50's selection, an expanding 60's selection and they seem to be the only "real oldies" station (although they call it classic oldies) that has decent ratings in their market.

Forget about weekend mornings though - public affairs etc. and they also carry some sports at other times. Outside of that it is a good listen.
 
"pryer" Oldies format

do you mean "prior" (as in previous)?

With Real Oldies, it's failure has proven there's no niche to fill.

(friendly tip: you may want to run a Spell Checker before you hit POST. Your credibility lacks greatly when looks like you can't spell simple words).

> Oldies these days are starting to sound more and more like
> a Rhythmic Oldies/Classic Hits hydrid. Though I do not mind
> this format, I equate Oldies to the pryer format of oldies
> that focused moere on the mid-to-late 50's, till around
> 1969 or so with an acational 70's tune thrown in for good
> measure. That format semed to play stuff before the "British
> Invation", where as these days anything before Beatles tends
> to be ignored by what oldies stations are left.
>
> Maybe that's why the "Real Oldies" format started? To fill
> that nitch. Or is it, in fact a nitch?
>
> I don't see why instead of going the 60's-70's route, why
> stations just don't widen there playlist and have a more
> mmassive apeal, or why both formats can't exist.
>
> For example, in Philly, though WPEN has a crappy on-air
> sound, I like Oldies the way they do it better then WOGL.
> The voiceover guy reminds me of the old WOGL and I also
> like the jingles.
>
 
It must not have been that great if it isn't around anymore. Besides, any "oldies" station that uses Billboard & Cashbox Pop, R&B and Country from 1950- 1979 as the basis for it's music wouldn't survive in any rated market.

> Good point. The Oldies station I grew up with had a MASSIVE
> playlist from 1950-1979. It it hit the Bilboard or Cashbox
> charts (Pop, R&B, Country) they had it and would play it.
> Also the the DJ's would bring in anything else from the era.
> that did not. A very local station out of Buford, GA WLKQ
> Lake 102.3 FM. The station is now Hispanic but it was a
> great station while it lasted. The ratings are much lower
> now but I guess the ad revenue is up despite both relying on
> local advertising.
>
 
The station had been owned by the same family since the 1960's and the was Country until 1985. From that time until about 2003 the station hailed itself as "The Largest Oldies Library In The Southeast" I sort of compare the station to WLNG because there was similar programming and the owner didn't care about ratings. Of course when he wanted out he sold the station to a company things were differant. The station started cutting out a large chunk of the playlist and people stopped listening and the advertisers went away. Instead of going back to what worked, the owner did Christmas Music and a few months after the regular programming came back on fired everyone and went Hispanic. <P ID="signature">______________
In Harmony
From the Bop Shop,
Brian "BD Bopper"</P>
 
> The station had been owned by the same family since the
> 1960's and the was Country until 1985. From that time until
> about 2003 the station hailed itself as "The Largest Oldies
> Library In The Southeast" I sort of compare the station to
> WLNG because there was similar programming and the owner
> didn't care about ratings. Of course when he wanted out he
> sold the station to a company things were differant. The
> station started cutting out a large chunk of the playlist
> and people stopped listening and the advertisers went away.
> Instead of going back to what worked, the owner did
> Christmas Music and a few months after the regular
> programming came back on fired everyone and went Hispanic.
>

What a shame. Corporate radio, ugh. Sounded like a great station. <P ID="signature">______________
Check my website www.freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews
</P>
 
> It must not have been that great if it isn't around anymore.
> Besides, any "oldies" station that uses Billboard & Cashbox
> Pop, R&B and Country from 1950- 1979 as the basis for it's
> music wouldn't survive in any rated market.

Have to remember that money and ad revenue has to do with the station's failure. It may have been successful locally, but since it changed owners (as BDbopper says) the money was the main issue. Sounds like small town radio to me in its old days and ratings don't mean much. But, if it was in a rated market, like you said, it likely wouldn't survive.

> > Good point. The Oldies station I grew up with had a
> MASSIVE
> > playlist from 1950-1979. It it hit the Bilboard or
> Cashbox
> > charts (Pop, R&B, Country) they had it and would play it.
>
> > Also the the DJ's would bring in anything else from the
> era.
> > that did not. A very local station out of Buford, GA WLKQ
>
> > Lake 102.3 FM. The station is now Hispanic but it was a
> > great station while it lasted. The ratings are much lower
>
> > now but I guess the ad revenue is up despite both relying
> on
> > local advertising.
> >
>
<P ID="signature">______________
Check my website www.freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews
</P>
 
Re: "pryer" Oldies format

> do you mean "prior" (as in previous)?
>
> With Real Oldies, it's failure has proven there's no niche
> to fill.
>
> (friendly tip: you may want to run a Spell Checker before
> you hit POST. Your credibility lacks greatly when looks
> like you can't spell simple words).

Do a Word Checker, too, which tells you when you need to insert an "it" between words like "when" and "looks". Oh, and it should be "its failure", not "it's failure", and your first and third sentences lack proper capitalization. Also, the final period should come inside the parenthesis and not outside it, as the sentence began inside the parenthetical expression. I'm only offering these as friendly tips, as I hate to see your credibility shot down in flames by these many blunders.
 
> Oldies these days are starting to sound more and more like
> a Rhythmic Oldies/Classic Hits hydrid. Though I do not mind
> this format, I equate Oldies to the pryer format of oldies
> that focused moere on the mid-to-late 50's, till around
> 1969 or so with an acational 70's tune thrown in for good
> measure. That format semed to play stuff before the "British
> Invation", where as these days anything before Beatles tends
> to be ignored by what oldies stations are left.
>
> Maybe that's why the "Real Oldies" format started? To fill
> that nitch. Or is it, in fact a nitch?

Real Oldies is failing in most markets. It was an attempt at least.

>
> I don't see why instead of going the 60's-70's route, why
> stations just don't widen there playlist and have a more
> mmassive apeal, or why both formats can't exist.

Unfortunatley, it is all about the money. Advertisers wouldn't want advertise on a station (depending on market) that played music from 1957 or before 1964. It involves that whole 25-54 target demo. And that means the owners will make less money, in most cases. WLNG is different.

>
> For example, in Philly, though WPEN has a crappy on-air
> sound, I like Oldies the way they do it better then WOGL.
> The voiceover guy reminds me of the old WOGL and I also
> like the jingles.
>

I think WOGL has a better presentation. AT least they don't have infomercials! The focus is music. Like galaxie said below, you can kiss WPEN goodbye.
<P ID="signature">______________
Check my website www.freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews
</P>
 
Re: "pryer" Oldies format

> With Real Oldies, it's failure has proven there's no niche
> to fill.

Well here's the wrongheaded corporate BS again. Real Oldies
has not been proven a failure. The problem is the
"bottom line/bean counter" mentality instead of doing good
radio.
As for no niche, Gee there seem to be a lot of people filling
something that doesn't supposedly exist. Such as community
stations, internet streaming "stations", XM and Sirius.

>
> (friendly tip: you may want to run a Spell Checker before
> you hit POST. Your credibility lacks greatly when looks
> like you can't spell simple words).
>

And about that credibility. Any association with you and crediblity
where oldies are concerned is purely coincidental. When it
comes to oldies you have no credibility Cat, so I wouldn't
pick on someone about spelling and claim a lack of credibility.

It's thinking like this that has gotten radio in the sorry state
that it is in today.

Mike Dane
WSTB-FM 88.9
WWW. SundayOldiesJukebox.com
 
> John,
>
> The voice guy is the same as the old OGL guy. I agree PEN
> did a nice job but as of October 3 it is dust as it becomes
> sports.
I realize it and I find it sad. WPEN's oldies format wasn't really given much a chance. I could see after maybe two-three years canning the format, but only a year?

>
> While they don't play 70's music, check out New Jersey's
> WMTR at wmtram.com. Great 50's selection, an expanding 60's
> selection and they seem to be the only "real oldies" station
> (although they call it classic oldies) that has decent
> ratings in their market.

Coolness and beaners, I'll check them out.

<P ID="signature">______________
John
E-mail: [email protected]
AIM: RainAngelsRule
MSN: [email protected]</P>
 
Oldies format

Please name one Top 75 Arbitron market ('cause that's where all the ad money
and national format influence is) where the Real Oldies format is successful.

(and, thanks for the credibility speech, Mike- (it never occoured to me to first consult this board's favorite HIGH SCHOOL RADIO STATION operator first).


> Well here's the wrongheaded corporate BS again. Real Oldies
> has not been proven a failure. The problem is the
> "bottom line/bean counter" mentality instead of doing good
> radio. As for no niche, Gee there seem to be a lot of people
> filling something that doesn't supposedly exist. Such as community
> stations, internet streaming "stations", XM and Sirius.

>
> And about that credibility. Any association with you and
> crediblity where oldies are concerned is purely coincidental. When it
> comes to oldies you have no credibility Cat, so I wouldn't
> pick on someone about spelling and claim a lack of
> credibility.
>
> It's thinking like this that has gotten radio in the sorry
> state that it is in today.
 
Re: Oldies format

> Please name one Top 75 Arbitron market ('cause that's where
> all the ad money
> and national format influence is) where the Real Oldies
> format is successful.

Unfortunatly thanks to the brainless wonders at corporations
like Clear Channel, Infinity and others, not to mention their
consultants, there is none. They worry too much about the
"bottom line" and let bean counters have too much say in
running things to do good radio. They need to learn that if
your paying the bills and make a profit (12 to 15% is target)
then you can afford to do good radio. I'd rather own a #10
station in New York, do good radio and make that target then
a #1 station and do crap no matter how much I made. (And
come to think of it isn't that where WCBS used to be?)
Thats one of many reasons I think we should reinstitute
the ownership cap and restrictions.

>
> (and, thanks for the credibility speech, Mike- (it never
> occoured to me to first consult this board's favorite HIGH
> SCHOOL RADIO STATION operator first).
>
You're most welcome Cat I figured since you have zero crediblity
here I should remind you. And since it was a misspelling that
started this, would you care to look at the way you spelled
occurred. Kind of silly to worry so much about spelling isn't it?

Now about that "board's favorite HIGH SCHOOL RADIO STATION
operator". I'm not the operator, I'm just one of the DJ's who
does the request show. Unlike you Cat, I not only talk the talk
but I can and do walk the walk, every Sunday night. It's no secret
where I am and what I do. I don't have to hide it or who I am, and
infact that information is at the bottom of my posts.
Like I've told you before I'm at WSTB because I couldn't afford
the pay cut to work in radio full time and have to put up with
bad management breathing down my neck. I do this for sheer love
of radio and the music (and ok maybe a small ego boost). All you've
you've ever done is made claims about being in radio 25 years.
I said then and I say again, so when re you going to get it right
and when are you going to prove it?

You have that same I'm better than you and smarter attitude that
is so prevalent in large corporate radio today which is a shame.

So Cat until you can walk the walk and prove it you have zero
credibility here.

Mike Dane
WSTB-FM 88.9
WWW.SundayOldiesJukebox.com
Sunday 9pm-12mid
 
Re: Getting "real" about radio.

>
> Unfortunatly thanks to the brainless wonders at corporations
>
> like Clear Channel, Infinity and others, not to mention
> their
> consultants, there is none.


Actually, CC tried to make "real oldies" work in several markets on very good facilities. They were not happy with the ratings or the sales, and whacked 'em in all but one place.

> They worry too much about the
> "bottom line" and let bean counters have too much say in
> running things to do good radio. They need to learn that if
> your paying the bills and make a profit (12 to 15% is
> target)

A 12% pretax operating profit margin will not even pay the cost of capital. You would be better off investing in mutual funds. So, if that is all one could get, they would not invest. Even old-line business like GE has better operating margins.

> then you can afford to do good radio. I'd rather own a #10
> station in New York, do good radio and make that target then
>
> a #1 station and do crap no matter how much I made. (And
> come to think of it isn't that where WCBS used to be?)
> Thats one of many reasons I think we should reinstitute
> the ownership cap and restrictions.

That would make it worse. Since small operators would be far riskier than big ones, the rates at which owners could borrow would be 6 to 8 points over prime. This would make it necessary to get 40% or better margins to take care of debt service. It would also make operators go with thevery safe, growing formats... and ones on the downtrend like oldies would never be programmed.

Be careful what you aske for, as you may get it. And you will not like it.
>
> You have that same I'm better than you and smarter attitude
> that
> is so prevalent in large corporate radio today which is a
> shame.

we are not necessarily smarter... although if this last post is an example, I would resk a bet on that too... but we know more of how th ebusiness works. You may think you know one kind of music, but you do not know the business part that must work if radio stations are to succeed.
>
> So Cat until you can walk the walk and prove it you have
> zero
> credibility here.
>

I find him eminently more credible than you, although Cat and I have disagreed on some points. Disagreeing in a field where there are many solutions to one problem is one thing, but being wrong is another.
 
Re: Cash Box charts? Hahahaha.

>
> What a shame. Corporate radio, ugh. Sounded like a great
> station.
>

Any station that used Cash Box and Billboard lists from the 50's and 60's should be checked by the state mental health board.
 
Re: Cash Box charts? Hahahaha.

> >
> > What a shame. Corporate radio, ugh. Sounded like a great
> > station.
> >
>
> Any station that used Cash Box and Billboard lists from the
> 50's and 60's should be checked by the state mental health
> board.
>

I've actually never heard of "Cash Box" charts and I know that the charts from way back when are pretty inaccurate.<P ID="signature">______________
Check my website www.freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews
</P>
 
Re: "pryer" Oldies format

> (friendly tip: you may want to run a Spell Checker before
> you hit POST. Your credibility lacks greatly when looks
> like you can't spell simple words).

Even better than a "spell-checker" is a first-rate education in grammar and spelling. Too bad people feel the need to rely on artificial intelligence (computers) rather than natural intellect (brain power).

I share your angst at the apparent lack of cred by some posters.
 
Re: Cash Box charts? Hahahaha.

> > >
> > > What a shame. Corporate radio, ugh. Sounded like a great
>
> > > station.
> > >
> >
> > Any station that used Cash Box and Billboard lists from
> the
> > 50's and 60's should be checked by the state mental health
>
> > board.
> >
>
> I've actually never heard of "Cash Box" charts and I know
> that the charts from way back when are pretty inaccurate.
>

The charts form that era were very subject to all kinds of record company manipulation. Paper adds, false store reports, exaqggerated shipping reports, etc.

When it is suggested that a station should play certain music because it charted, I just have to laugh.
 
Re: Getting "real" about radio.

> Actually, CC tried to make "real oldies" work in several
> markets on very good facilities. They were not happy with
> the ratings or the sales, and whacked 'em in all but one
> place.

The problem though was they listened to consultants, not
people that know the area and the music.

>
> A 12% pretax operating profit margin will not even pay the
> cost of capital. You would be better off investing in mutual
> funds. So, if that is all one could get, they would not
> invest. Even old-line business like GE has better operating
> margins.

The 12 to 15% profit is figured post tax not pre tax. That
is your target zone. Anything above that is cream.

>
> That would make it worse. Since small operators would be far
> riskier than big ones, the rates at which owners could
> borrow would be 6 to 8 points over prime. This would make it
> necessary to get 40% or better margins to take care of debt
> service. It would also make operators go with thevery safe,
> growing formats... and ones on the downtrend like oldies
> would never be programmed.

I disagree. Small operations might be more risky but they will
be able to move and respond better to the listeners and the
advertisers then the large corporations who micro-manage.
6 to 8 points are possible, but so are lower points. many
factors come into play here and affect the loan rate but
quite often a good local company dealing with their local
bank can come up with reasonable rates.
Locally owned or smaller radio corporations are more likely
work at serving thier local market. This can include a format
that may not give them the number one arbitron rating but
give them a solid share of the market

>
> Be careful what you aske for, as you may get it. And you
> will not like it.

This is where you are wrong again.If I were to get it, I'd
be happy with it. I Think the cap is a good thing. I think
the rules on flipping stations (and I don't mean formats) is
a good thing. And to be honest I think allowing some stations
to go dark is a good thing.

>
> we are not necessarily smarter... although if this last post
> is an example, I would resk a bet on that too... but we know
> more of how th ebusiness works. You may think you know one
> kind of music, but you do not know the business part that
> must work if radio stations are to succeed.

Well if the posts from you and Cat are an example I'd take
the bet. I love taking money from a sucker. Do you know more
about the day to day business of radio. Yep, but I can learn
that. What can't be learned easy is the right music. You
really just have to have the ear.

>
> I find him eminently more credible than you, although Cat
> and I have disagreed on some points. Disagreeing in a field
> where there are many solutions to one problem is one thing,
> but being wrong is another.
>

Well of course you do. There's only a nickle's worth of
difference between you two. I've been to your website David.
I've seen your Resume. I was impressed, you've done a lot. But
it also showed me plain as day that even if you, yourself
aren't responsible for the sad shape of radio today, you are
part of that consultan/research/corporate group that is.
I especially like the spanish talk radio KTNQ(?) and the K-mart
thing.
If you're not part of the solution your part of the problem.

Mike Dane
WSTB-FM 88.9
www.SundayOldiesJukebox.com
 
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