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The pryer Oldies format

Re: Enthusiasm

> > But radio is about FULFILLING EXPECTATION, not convincing
> > them they should like what you're doing.
>
> This is something that many stations overlook when they jump
> on the next big thing.
>
> If people know you as an "oldies" station and you stop
> playing what people consider "oldies" (ie
> Beatles/Elvis/Motown) and start playing a bunch of 70's
> tunes, then the older audience will tune you out because
> you're not playing what they expect and the younger audience
> won't tune you in because they expect you to play a bunch of
> stuff they don't like.
>
> That's why I think Infinity was smart to flip Tampa back to
> Q-105. If you're going to flip the music, you also need to
> flip the rest of the station to let people know that you've
> made a change, or else you will lose the expectations game.
> It's also why I don't think New York and Chicago was nearly
> as huge as a risk as it seemed.
>
> It's not just oldies stations who miss this step. Remember
> when everyone seemed to shift from CHR to Hot AC in the
> 90's? Adults didn't listen because 'that's the station my
> daughter listens to'. Teens didn't listen because they
> played their mom's music. End result was nobody listened to
> those stations until they just blew them up.
>
> It's equally important to know what your audience thinks you
> are as to know what you are... and if those two aren't one
> in the same, you have some work to do!
>

Very interesting post. You bring up different points, points I didn't think about. An example could be, station "Max 106.3" in New Jersey used to be CHR/Top 40, but last year shifted to Hot AC, but a lot of listeners may still think it is Top 40, since THE NAME is "Max 106.3" still. Interesting stuff to bring to the table John.<P ID="signature">______________
The Place for the Latest Happenings in Radio
www.freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews
</P>
 
Re: Getting "real" about radio.

>
> Radio stations do not research audience groups that are not
> productive. 55+ listenership will not produce much, if any,
> revenue. Radio stations definitely focus on the listener,
> but only on those listeners that advertisers are interested
> in.

We kind of noticed. the only problem is there are a lot of
people like me who are in our mid 40's that want to hear that
music. Infact I know a lot of people in the 20's and 30's that
want to hear that music too. We all like the music and are
right in that target zone.
It will be interesting to watch WMJI's arbitrons, they fell
to 3rd in both the Cleveland and Akron markets.

> I just explained why this, today, will not happen. Nearly no
> bank will lend to single, stand-alone radio stations. Banks
> have consolidated, too.

I'm glad you said "Nearly" and I think in another message you
said "Most". Each situation is going to be unique and individual.
There are many things that go into deciding a loan, so each one
even if the same station is different. I asked someone I know
who is a bank VP and he emphasied that to me, but he did say
that they had arranged loans and financing in the past.
Now granted, the larger corporates have a better chance than a
small corporation or single station will have.
And you don't have to remind me about bank consolidation. I sat
and watchedmy bank (which happened to be The Firestone Bank)
become BancOne and then (I think) Chase. I don't like it anymore
than I do radio.

> Even the larger banks will do one of two things... not lend
> at all (95% of them) or lend to groups. Practically none
> will lend to a single market station or cluster, unless the
> buyer has other assets to guarantee with.
>
> I am involved with stations in dozens of markets, and
> several countries. Financing is nearly impossible. I have
> had personally tried to buy, with no doable deals... and I
> have a reasonably good background.

95%, even if that figure is accurate that still would leave 5%
One thing about smaller banks is that they are more interested
in investing in the local community.

>
> As I said, consultants try to create winning stations using
> the local staff, local research and vast experience. Radio
> is far more competitive and fragmented, and there are more
> non-radio alternatives.

Non radio alternatives? Hmm haven't I been saying that?
Let the local staff do their jobs without micro managing them
might help.

>
> It will not happen. As I said, there is always someoen who
> thinks they have a better idea. Sometimes they are right,
> too.

This change won't come just because someone's business collapses.
It will be that and broadcasters arranging it, along with the
FCC. If some stations go dark that will free up bandspace for
full time IBOC.

>
> Docket 80-90 drove quality down, as the existing market
> revenue had to suport new statins and move ins and upgrades
> that were not previously possible. It all goes back tot he
> Bonita Springs case.
>
> Consolidation is only 8 years old in the US. Any real issues
> predated consolidation and were, in fact, the reason for
> consolidation.

I think 80-90 played a part of it but it can't be blamed for
the whole mess.
Didn't you say in a previos message that consolidation had
been going on for 50 years? I'll have to find that one.

> "Kiss" is a name for many formats and stations, all
> different, all locally researched. In fact, the issue with
> common names is caused by the internet, which makes service
> mark clearance very hard. So companies use the names they
> have registered all over, for different formats.

Sorry but Kiss is not a name for many formats. It's one format
and mahy stations. Owned by one entity and used at many statins.


>
> That is no more cookie cutter than 200 SRP stations using
> the same voice tracking in the 70´s or 150 Drake Chennault
> AC stations using the same voice tracking int he same era...
> etc.

If your playing the same songs and have the same DJ and it is
not syndicated that is a cookie cutter.

>
> The stations are still locally programmed, using voices from
> other places.
>
programed from corporate offices.

>
> No difference.

Big difference. Business in latin countries is not run the
same as here in the states.

>
> What is arrogant is to say, "I know the music." You don´t.
> The listener does.

No David saying I know the music is not arrogant. I DO know
this music better than you ever will and yet not as well as
some of my friends. My knowledge is of one who is a collector
and lover of it. Not an office person.
And what you forget David is that I AM one of the listeners.
I can not devote whole shows to obsure stuff (at least not often).
But I can bring a hand full of songs in and see what everyone
thinks.
Now what WOULD be arrogant would be for me to claim that I know
better than the listener. And I don't claim that.

>
> Which is why even the biggest companies have local and
> regional management, not standardized national policies.

Chain of command is too long and there is not enough control
at the local level.


> > like, and I take that into consideration. I do a request
> > show
> > after all.
>
> Arrrgh. No one uses requests as a primary indication.
> Callers are atypical listeners.

Well we have an atypical station. But we don't take it as a
primary indication. Look at what I said "take into consideration"
But at least we do listen to our listeners which is more than I
can say for most stations.

>
> You will get 1.000 if you listen to the listeners, not you
> own taste.

which we do and I do.

> >
> > Being a Cleveland boy let me remind you of
> Papa-Oom-Mow-Mow
> > which
> > got a boost thanks to Ghoulardi. What NE Ohio oldies
> station
> >
> > wouldn't play that? (a CC station) and the same with
> Desert
> > Rat.
> > Or how about something from LA? Whittier Blvd. by Thee
> > Midnighters.

>
> 50% of the population of most major US markets did not grow
> up in that market. Unknown songs don´t research and are not
> appreciated.

I think you're a little skewed here, but the point is taken.
A good playlist is kind of like a cheese cake. It's good all
by it self. The extra songs like the above mentioned are like
the cherries, they just add to the wonderfulness of it.
Should they be in heavy rotation? of course not. Here Whittier
Blvd should be in light rotation. In LA (sepecially East LA)
it would be in a higher rotation, but never in a heavy rotation.
It's there to make the listener smile with a memory or say wow
I never heard that song before its great.

>
> Actually, a good programmer takes listener feedback and
> opinion and builds a creative station or an exciting station
> or a mood station based on the listener, not thier own
> opinion.

And bottom line the final decision is his to make.


> I see. NY, Miami, Chicago, Houston, Dallas, Austin, San
> Antonio, LA, San Francisco, etc., are not US markets?

How many of those are Spanish and how many english?

>
> Actually, they spend millions to find out what their real
> listeners want. Day in, day out.

But they don't do anything then. they are leaving us adrift.

>
> None of which the bulk of listeners give a rat´s posterior
> about.

And that is where You're wrong. And it shows you have the
same corporate mentality as DD and the others.
You're one who always says the charts don't mean much. That
they were basically rigged. There are many songs that should
have been heard and we try to find them ahd give them some
air play so the listeners don't have to hear the same 450
songs over and over.


> I have researched over 3000 different titles for an LA
> oldies station. 75% do not make it. There are no hidden
> gems. If they are hidden, they are not playable.

3000? is that all? an Ipod has more than that. It's not
even a drop in the bucket of some casual listeners store
bought collection let alone mine.
And by the way, where did you get those 3000 songs? form
a hat? from a fairy godmother? or from the charts?

>
> Prices since consolidatin have followed the same multiples
> based on market revenues and billing as they did before. The
> fundamentals of making a profit on each station do not
> change.
prices have jumped since the roule changes not consolidation.
the one thing I can say about consolidation is they do take
a long term view.

>
> I see. The only LA Spanish and local news talk station,
> which is profitable and has good ratings, should go dark?

I don't know what the call leters were befor this were. But
I have no problem with letting a failing station go dark.
KTNQ itself is succeedign find and dandy. My complaints with
KTNQ and other stations similar are not the same.


>
> Too many to list. 70 stations, all mostly live and local.

I said American radio David not spanish rdio in the U.S.

>
> The same percentage of people use radio as in 1975. The PUR
> is only 2% below the level from that year, despite a myriad
> of alternative leisure time activities. Radio billing is
> growing, and the industry is mature. No one expects radio to
> grow in listening, and it probably will shrink over time.
> But it is not moribund.
> >
>

And we shall see how it fares in the future.

Mike Dane
WSTB-FM 88.9
www.SundayOldiesJukebox.com
 
Re: A wealth of misinformation.

> >
> > Radio stations do not research audience groups that are
> not
> > productive. 55+ listenership will not produce much, if
> any,
> > revenue. Radio stations definitely focus on the listener,
> > but only on those listeners that advertisers are
> interested
> > in.
>
> We kind of noticed. the only problem is there are a lot of
> people like me who are in our mid 40's that want to hear
> that
> music. Infact I know a lot of people in the 20's and 30's
> that
> want to hear that music too.

No, there are not. The number of under-45's listening to even the most varied oldies stations is minuscule. One can see this in each Arbitron report under audience compostion in Maximiser The audience they get in the under-45 demo is basically just enough to show in the ratings, in last place. And the 45-54 is mostly 50-54, and shrinking.

> We all like the music and are
> right in that target zone.
> It will be interesting to watch WMJI's arbitrons, they fell
> to 3rd in both the Cleveland and Akron markets.

They never had any appreciable under 45 listening, with a bit of an exception for the morning show, which does not depend as much on the music. Same thing with stations like KOOL in Phoenix, which have wider playlists, but are held up mostly by a very good morning show, not by the oldies alone.
>
> > I just explained why this, today, will not happen. Nearly
> no
> > bank will lend to single, stand-alone radio stations.
> Banks
> > have consolidated, too.
>
> I'm glad you said "Nearly" and I think in another message
> you
> said "Most". Each situation is going to be unique and
> individual.
> There are many things that go into deciding a loan, so each
> one
> even if the same station is different. I asked someone I
> know
> who is a bank VP and he emphasied that to me, but he did say
>
> that they had arranged loans and financing in the past.

For many years, I did expansion and financing for a smaller group (annual revenue of under $50 million) and even with a number of cash flowing, high revenue stations in a top 15 market, we could not get financing that we could afford (yes, there were 15% to 18% loans, but most stations in smaller markets could never generate the BCF to pay them).

And for a decade I have shopped some medium market deals for myself, including significant equity and guarantees, but no one I would deal with will loan for a single market deal.

It is terribly difficult to finance a single station. And banks want cash flowers, and no turn arounds and start ups. So forget the "new formats" idea.

> Now granted, the larger corporates have a better chance than
> a
> small corporation or single station will have.
> And you don't have to remind me about bank consolidation. I
> sat
> and watchedmy bank (which happened to be The Firestone Bank)
>
> become BancOne and then (I think) Chase. I don't like it
> anymore
> than I do radio.

Public companies finance with equity, not loans, in many cases. And single stations simply do not get financing. If you already have stations, it is easier. But the huge exposure in a single market will not pass a loan committee.
>
> > Even the larger banks will do one of two things... not
> lend
> > at all (95% of them) or lend to groups. Practically none
> > will lend to a single market station or cluster, unless
> the
> > buyer has other assets to guarantee with.
> >
> > I am involved with stations in dozens of markets, and
> > several countries. Financing is nearly impossible. I have
> > had personally tried to buy, with no doable deals... and I
>
> > have a reasonably good background.
>
> 95%, even if that figure is accurate that still would leave
> 5%

For small groups.

> One thing about smaller banks is that they are more
> interested
> in investing in the local community.

But not in radio. No forclosable assets. Small banks seldom do radio... unless the equity is someones other investments and properties, like homes, etc.
>
> >
> > As I said, consultants try to create winning stations
> using
> > the local staff, local research and vast experience. Radio
>
> > is far more competitive and fragmented, and there are more
>
> > non-radio alternatives.
>
> Non radio alternatives? Hmm haven't I been saying that?
> Let the local staff do their jobs without micro managing
> them
> might help.

You have no idea how a station runs, the job of the licensee to protect the assets and licence, the legal restrictions, the EEO and OSA requirements... You have to directly, or through supervisors, watch everything that goes on.
>
> >
> > It will not happen. As I said, there is always someoen who
>
> > thinks they have a better idea. Sometimes they are right,
> > too.
>
> This change won't come just because someone's business
> collapses.
> It will be that and broadcasters arranging it, along with
> the
> FCC. If some stations go dark that will free up bandspace
> for
> full time IBOC.

Nope. stations today can buy other stations and silence them, if they want to loosen a directional (like WINS and WADO did in NY) but very few of these deals happen. Nobody is going to spend money to shut down stations so the night AM signal can go digital... there has not been enough night radio audience since the 50's to make that worthwhile.

Test for you: If a station has a 4 share in morning drive, or a 15 share in 7-midnight, which is a better achievement?
>
>
> I think 80-90 played a part of it but it can't be blamed for
>
> the whole mess.

Nearly all of it. The Bonita Springs case and the resultant Docket 80-90 allowed A's to upgrade to B's or C's without a hearing or allowing competitive applications, allowed move ins, and allowed many new channels. This is the real problem today... if there is one.

> Didn't you say in a previos message that consolidation had
> been going on for 50 years? I'll have to find that one.

I said there had been consolidation outside the US for 50 years. In the US, we have had it for 9 years this year.
>
> > "Kiss" is a name for many formats and stations, all
> > different, all locally researched. In fact, the issue with
>
> > common names is caused by the internet, which makes
> service
> > mark clearance very hard. So companies use the names they
> > have registered all over, for different formats.
>
> Sorry but Kiss is not a name for many formats. It's one
> format
> and mahy stations. Owned by one entity and used at many
> statins.

Every Clear Channel KISS is very different from every other one. They are everything from rhythmic to hot AC to CHR to rock leaning CHR. Every one researches and plays music in the local market, and each one has its own PD.

A year or two ago, Airplay Monitor did an article in which the selected a couple of Kiss stations and found the music to be as much as 50% different on individual stations, despite all falling in the CHR / Hot AC spectrum.

There are also a number of Kiss stations that are not owned by Clear Channel, starting in the #1 market in the US.

You really ought to research these things before you state them, as saying that we are dealing with a single format is wrong and very naive.
>
> If your playing the same songs and have the same DJ and it
> is
> not syndicated that is a cookie cutter.

Not the same songs, and voice tracking is far more limited than you think. There is vastly less of it now than there was in the 70's, for example. You really need to check your facts before you post stuff like this.
>
> >
> > The stations are still locally programmed, using voices
> from
> > other places.
> >
> programed from corporate offices.
>
> >
> > No difference.
>
> Big difference. Business in latin countries is not run the
> same as here in the states.

I am talking about 70 stations licensed by the FCC, in 6 of the top 10 markets, in fact.

> No David saying I know the music is not arrogant. I DO know
> this music better than you ever will and yet not as well as
> some of my friends. My knowledge is of one who is a
> collector
> and lover of it. Not an office person.
> And what you forget David is that I AM one of the listeners.

No, you are a geek, like all who come here... myself included. You are not an average listener. And one who supposes that great depth of obscure musical knowledge qualifies one as a programmer is totally wrong. So wrong that in many big stations, the PD does not do the music... a music director does.
> >
> > Which is why even the biggest companies have local and
> > regional management, not standardized national policies.
>
> Chain of command is too long and there is not enough control
>
> at the local level.

This, of course, is also not true.

> > Arrrgh. No one uses requests as a primary indication.
> > Callers are atypical listeners.
>
> Well we have an atypical station. But we don't take it as a
> primary indication. Look at what I said "take into
> consideration"
> But at least we do listen to our listeners which is more
> than I
> can say for most stations.

Most major and medium market stations spend tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars listening to listeners. research is an organized, and replicable, way of finding out what a listener wants. taking requests is not. At one extreme, I know an LA station that spends a quarter-million on audience research yearly... not Arbitron, not syndicated stuff... real, proprietary research on listener needs and expectations.
>
> >
> > You will get 1.000 if you listen to the listeners, not you
>
> > own taste.
>
> which we do and I do.

Not if you play requests. I presume you have good ratings to make that statement? I have asked that before, and you don't answer...
>
> > I see. NY, Miami, Chicago, Houston, Dallas, Austin, San
> > Antonio, LA, San Francisco, etc., are not US markets?
>
> How many of those are Spanish and how many english?

Who cares? They are all American radio stations, ranging from AC to Classic Country and Smooth Jazz.

Or... and I hope not... are you saying that Hispanic Americans are not "real" Americans?
>
> >
> > Actually, they spend millions to find out what their real
> > listeners want. Day in, day out.
>
> But they don't do anything then. they are leaving us adrift.

Wrong. Stations take the research to determine the songs listeners want to hear, and don't play the ones, like Whittier Boulevard, that listers have zero interest in hearing and which would cause many of the listeners to tune out.
>
> And that is where You're wrong. And it shows you have the
> same corporate mentality as DD and the others.
> You're one who always says the charts don't mean much. That
> they were basically rigged. There are many songs that should
> have been heard and we try to find them ahd give them some
> air play so the listeners don't have to hear the same 450
> songs over and over.

There is nothing that did not chart that is playable. Most of what charted is no longer playable, either. This is why we test songs, hundreds and even thousands of them... to find out which are desired and which will destroy the listening.

> > I have researched over 3000 different titles for an LA
> > oldies station. 75% do not make it. There are no hidden
> > gems. If they are hidden, they are not playable.
>
> 3000? is that all? an Ipod has more than that. It's not
> even a drop in the bucket of some casual listeners store
> bought collection let alone mine.

3000 is way too many, but since we know LA listeners come from many places, we overindulged ourselves in trying any possibility to get good songs.

I suppose there are stations that play 3000 songs. I probably have not noticed them because they do not get any listening. I tend to look at stations that someone is actually listening to. Playing 3000 songs is pretty much a guarantee that the only people listening will be a bunch of weird radio geeks.

> And by the way, where did you get those 3000 songs? form
> a hat? from a fairy godmother? or from the charts?

We got the list over time. First, the PD and I and the new airstaff, all of whom had been in radio about 35 years or more, went on a trek to a major wholesaler 2000 miles away and everything anyone remembered was purchased. Then we looked for specific songs each of us remebered from having played or programmed them. We tested all of them.

When we kicked off the station, we had several weeks of a listener constest to suggest songs we should play. And then we tested the whole library and the prospect list on the air, with a ballot published in the newspaper. We then did a "real" statistically valid test 90 days after going on the air, and got a clear definition of what was good and what was not.

Overall, there was a nearly a half-million spent on research and getting the library and on digitally cleaning up many of the songs to our standards.

The result is that last month in Arbitron (July) the station was #5 in 25-54 in the highest billing radio market in the world.

> >
> > I see. The only LA Spanish and local news talk station,
> > which is profitable and has good ratings, should go dark?
>
>
> I don't know what the call leters were befor this were.

They were KTNQ since the mid-70's, and from 1960 to that time they were KGBS, and prior to that KPOP and KFVD (dating to 1922).

You said that KTNQ would be a station that should be shut off. I still have no idea why you think this way.

> But
> I have no problem with letting a failing station go dark.
> KTNQ itself is succeedign find and dandy. My complaints with
>
> KTNQ and other stations similar are not the same.

Then why did you specifically say it should go silent? (TV staitons go dark, radio stations go silent)
>
>
> >
> > Too many to list. 70 stations, all mostly live and local.
>
>
> I said American radio David not spanish rdio in the U.S.

All stations in the US are "American radio." that sounds very racist, although I do not think it was your intent to insult 40,000,000 Americans of Hisanic descent, 75% of whom use Spanish radio.

There are nearly 800 American radio station that broadcast in Spanish. They are 100% as "American" as any other stations in the US. What in the world are you thinking????????

Spanish language radio in the US is no different than any other kind of radio. Same advertisers, same rules, same ratings, same everything. (And many of those 70 are not in Spanish.)

How does your station fare in the Akron Arbitron?
 
misinformation.

David- this cat is another example of people who put up their opinion as "fact".
Because he "thinks" something is this or that, he presents it as fact. Again- save your keyboard. He doesn't speak real radio language and, even worse, can't hear it.
 
Re: The Listeners

> > But radio is about FULFILLING EXPECTATION, not convincing
> > them they should like what you're doing.
> >
> > Understand, your view and perspective of radio is not the
> > same as normal, everyday, NORMAL radio listeners. If
> you're
> > in radio or a radio junkie on this board, you do not use
> nor
> > view radio the same way everyday listeners do, therefore
> > making it impossible to have a totally objective,
> non-biased
> > viewpoint.
> >
> > "Different" is one thing-- "different" that listeners
> really
> > want to hear is almost always another.
> >
> > >
> > > Wow. Is it possible to believe that by offering
> > something
> > > different to listeners than the songs that they've
> already
> >
> > > heard literally millions of times, you're trying to help
>
> > > them more than you're trying to help yourself? Is that
> so
> > > beyond the realm of possibility? I'd appreciate your
> > > limiting your response to this question only, David -- I
>
> > > know how you like to write a book sometimes!
> > >
> >
>
> Its ok to offer something different to the listeners, but if
> the ratings are good, $$$ is coming in, and the listeners
> are happy, why change it? They may not mind hearing their
> favorite song 1000 times.
>

At least a thousand times! LOL!
<P ID="signature">______________
Put that thing away, please! You're scarying me!</P>
 
Re: A wealth of misinformation.

> No, there are not. The number of under-45's listening to
> even the most varied oldies stations is minuscule. One can
> see this in each Arbitron report under audience compostion
> in Maximiser The audience they get in the under-45 demo is
> basically just enough to show in the ratings, in last place.
> And the 45-54 is mostly 50-54, and shrinking.

So you think. but you know as well as I do that Arbitron is
not as accurate as we wish it were. The younger audience is
under reported because they don't want to carry and fill the
diaries out. I got one many years ago long before I was on
radio and it went flying into the trash.

> They never had any appreciable under 45 listening, with a
> bit of an exception for the morning show, which does not
> depend as much on the music. Same thing with stations like
> KOOL in Phoenix, which have wider playlists, but are held up
> mostly by a very good morning show, not by the oldies alone.

See above and their morning show has zero music.


> For many years, I did expansion and financing for a smaller
> group (annual revenue of under $50 million) and even with a
> number of cash flowing, high revenue stations in a top 15
> market, we could not get financing that we could afford
> (yes, there were 15% to 18% loans, but most stations in
> smaller markets could never generate the BCF to pay them).
>
> And for a decade I have shopped some medium market deals for
> myself, including significant equity and guarantees, but no
> one I would deal with will loan for a single market deal.
>
> It is terribly difficult to finance a single station. And
> banks want cash flowers, and no turn arounds and start ups.
> So forget the "new formats" idea.

Banks use all kinds of information to decide on wether to loan
money. The more collateral you have the better they like it.
Or to put it another way the less you really need the money
the more likely you will be to get it.
And as you say it is terribly difficult. Which also means it
can and has been done.

>
> Public companies finance with equity, not loans, in many
> cases. And single stations simply do not get financing. If
> you already have stations, it is easier. But the huge
> exposure in a single market will not pass a loan committee.

Sometimes they do. And sometimes they use loans. A company
will look every option over very carefully and see what will
provide the best benefit to the company.
If you are trying to buy a station and don't have assets and
a proven track record already, you're right you have a
snowballs chance to get a loan with our some source of
collateral.

>
> But not in radio. No forclosable assets. Small banks seldom
> do radio... unless the equity is someones other investments
> and properties, like homes, etc.

No foreclosable assets? Think about this. How much did your
home cost? and how many could you put on an average antenna
site. housing is big and they aren't making anymore land.

>
> You have no idea how a station runs, the job of the licensee
> to protect the assets and licence, the legal restrictions,
> the EEO and OSA requirements... You have to directly, or
> through supervisors, watch everything that goes on.

You don't have a clue what I'm talking about here. I said
don't micro manage. In other words don't breath down their
necks 24/7/52. they put GM's, PD.s and MD's in place let
them do thier job. They should know when to fly something
to copporate for their approval. They should also know what
the company policy is and the regs like EEOC and such and
toe the line.


>
> Nope. stations today can buy other stations and silence
> them, if they want to loosen a directional (like WINS and
> WADO did in NY) but very few of these deals happen. Nobody
> is going to spend money to shut down stations so the night
> AM signal can go digital... there has not been enough night
> radio audience since the 50's to make that worthwhile.

Agreed stations can buy others to free up their signal. But
if a station keeps having problems and new owners all the time
I would not complain about the FCC stepping in and just
pulling the license.
As for spending the money to shut a station down. It may
never happen, but never say never, because it just may.

>
> Test for you: If a station has a 4 share in morning drive,
> or a 15 share in 7-midnight, which is a better achievement?

Hmm a larger share of a small pie or a small share of a
large pie.

>
> Nearly all of it. The Bonita Springs case and the resultant
> Docket 80-90 allowed A's to upgrade to B's or C's without a
> hearing or allowing competitive applications, allowed move
> ins, and allowed many new channels. This is the real problem
> today... if there is one.

I would say a large part of it. But you can't blame the whole
state of radio on just that. Too many other things factor in.

>
> Every Clear Channel KISS is very different from every other
> one. They are everything from rhythmic to hot AC to CHR to
> rock leaning CHR. Every one researches and plays music in
> the local market, and each one has its own PD.

Unfortunatly having listend to a couple of the stations in
different places they sure sounded alike to me. coincidence?

>
> A year or two ago, Airplay Monitor did an article in which
> the selected a couple of Kiss stations and found the music
> to be as much as 50% different on individual stations,
> despite all falling in the CHR / Hot AC spectrum.

I would like to see that article. If you could post a link
I would appreciate it.

>
> There are also a number of Kiss stations that are not owned
> by Clear Channel, starting in the #1 market in the US.

The kiss station in the number 1 market in the US is........
KIIS-FM owned by Clear Channel. The kiss station in the number
2 market is WRKS-FM owned by Emmis. Contrary to what Arbitron
puts out LA is THE market. But in all seriousness, Kiss is like
Jack. It's a basic format and yes there will be some minor
variation, but it is basically an "old school hip hop/R&B
format. Unfortunatly I hear it way more than I like as they play
it in the gym.

>
> You really ought to research these things before you state
> them, as saying that we are dealing with a single format is
> wrong and very naive.

You better take your own advice.

>
> Not the same songs, and voice tracking is far more limited
> than you think. There is vastly less of it now than there
> was in the 70's, for example. You really need to check your
> facts before you post stuff like this.

70 to 80 percent of the same songs is cookie cutter.
Let's see Clear Channel just let the MD who also did the
mid-day show at WMJI go and they are having the afternoon
drive DJ from one of their other stations in the cluster do a
the show. The word is that it could be live, VT'd or a
combo of the two. I really can't see someone doing 8 hours,
can you? Most VT is still done overnights. I've even heard
a combo of the two (again). Not a good thing when you can
pick it out. This is one case where I wish and hope I was
totally wrong. But there is stil too much use of it.
Again take some of your own advice.


> I am talking about 70 stations licensed by the FCC, in 6 of
> the top 10 markets, in fact.

Seems to me David your specialty is Spanish language stations
rather than english stations. And there is a difference to
my ear, although I do love the music.

>
> No, you are a geek, like all who come here... myself
> included. You are not an average listener. And one who
> supposes that great depth of obscure musical knowledge
> qualifies one as a programmer is totally wrong. So wrong
> that in many big stations, the PD does not do the music... a
> music director does.

Thanks for the laugh David. Sorry to disappoint you but I am
not a geek. Far from it. I'm more of a jock. Do I love my toys?
you bet. But nope not a geek.
As for being qualified to be a Programmer. It's not my knowledge
of obscure music but my knowledge of the pop music of that
time along with the obscure and pick good songs. That is one
of our compaints of radio today (before we got off track).
The same 450 songs over and over ad nauseum is sickening.
I had a listener call last night and complained about this very
thing with not just the oldies stations she can get (3), but
the classic rock stations as well and she is sitting where
she can get Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown and Pittsburgh.
And about the PD/MD I know the MD does it as larger stations.
Although you might want to remind Cat, from one of the messages
he posted I think he might be confused. I also know that in
smaller stations there is plenty of wearing of more than one
hat.I have to admit if a station is going to play a limited
number of songs, I like Cats idea. about 800 songs with another
500 specaialty songs thrown in to spread things out a bit.

>
> This, of course, is also not true.

When you start getting regional VP's and all that, it's too
long. Bureaucracy has a bad habit of growing.

>
> Most major and medium market stations spend tens if not
> hundreds of thousands of dollars listening to listeners.
> research is an organized, and replicable, way of finding out
> what a listener wants. taking requests is not. At one
> extreme, I know an LA station that spends a quarter-million
> on audience research yearly... not Arbitron, not syndicated
> stuff... real, proprietary research on listener needs and
> expectations.

I'm glad to hear that. Thats the way it should be. Now the
question is what do they do with it when they get it?
Now if I had that kind of money to blow I might too. Although
I would rather spend it on promoting the station.

> Not if you play requests. I presume you have good ratings to
> make that statement? I have asked that before, and you don't
> answer...

For a non-comm we have good ratings from what I have seen.
Considering that we have a small budget and little advetising
and promotions, we do well. Little by little
And we make WMJI just a bit nervous. which I love.

>
> Who cares? They are all American radio stations, ranging
> from AC to Classic Country and Smooth Jazz.
>
> Or... and I hope not... are you saying that Hispanic
> Americans are not "real" Americans?

Typical liberal accusations. For your information I am 2nd
generation, my grandparents came from Italy. I believer that
spanish radio in the US does a diservice to the latino
community by holding them back from becoming a part of
this country. Immersion is the best way to learn about
a people, place, culture or a language.

>
> Wrong. Stations take the research to determine the songs
> listeners want to hear, and don't play the ones, like
> Whittier Boulevard, that listers have zero interest in
> hearing and which would cause many of the listeners to tune
> out.

And that's where you're wrong. Just because the song didn't
the top 40 (or 100 for that matter. doesn't make it a bad song
or mean that listeners will tune out. As someone told me not
too long ago, The songs were shorter then so they will keep
listening because they know more good songs are coming up.
And you really need to throw some of these songs in because
you are more likely to lose a listener because of the same
tired songs over and over so a "New" oldie once in awhile
to freshen up the playlist is a good thing.

>
> There is nothing that did not chart that is playable. Most
> of what charted is no longer playable, either. This is why
> we test songs, hundreds and even thousands of them... to
> find out which are desired and which will destroy the
> listening.

Well which is it. The charts are wrong and inaccurate and can't
be trusted or used or a place to start your research?
As for your testing it sounds like you're not doing a good
job. Some songs can indeed get a listener to turn a station
off. If yuu want me to turn it off play in the year 2525 or
Ohio. Click. But that list for the average listener is smaller
than you think. After all they have been listening to the
same 450 or so songs for how many years now?

>
> 3000 is way too many, but since we know LA listeners come
> from many places, we overindulged ourselves in trying any
> possibility to get good songs.

Too many my patootie. Thats just getting started. If you're
doing your job right you should be doing way more. There
are about 11,000 songs on the top 100 from '55 to '75
(might be '72, I forgot what year I stoped counting). Not
too mention the bubbling under as well. In a case of that
many songs I would sit the DJ's and MD down and presort the
songs and then test the ones that passed muster. After all
you won't get anyone to sit still that long.

>
> I suppose there are stations that play 3000 songs. I
> probably have not noticed them because they do not get any
> listening. I tend to look at stations that someone is
> actually listening to. Playing 3000 songs is pretty much a
> guarantee that the only people listening will be a bunch of
> weird radio geeks.

Well you keep watching as radio slowly declines. And I'm going
to laugh myself silly on this fixation you have on radio geeks.

>
> We got the list over time. First, the PD and I and the new
> airstaff, all of whom had been in radio about 35 years or
> more, went on a trek to a major wholesaler 2000 miles away
> and everything anyone remembered was purchased. Then we
> looked for specific songs each of us remebered from having
> played or programmed them. We tested all of them.

Hmm kind of like we do, other than the wholesaler. I use
collectors of and some dealers of Oldies music.

>
> When we kicked off the station, we had several weeks of a
> listener constest to suggest songs we should play. And then
> we tested the whole library and the prospect list on the
> air, with a ballot published in the newspaper. We then did a
> "real" statistically valid test 90 days after going on the
> air, and got a clear definition of what was good and what
> was not.

>
> Overall, there was a nearly a half-million spent on research
> and getting the library and on digitally cleaning up many of
> the songs to our standards.

Here you're preaching to the choir. I spend more money then I
shoul on music all the time. CD's. vinyl and even MP3's sent to
me by collectors and even listeners. I'm also debating buying
either the nitty gritty record cleaner or the VMI (I tihik it
is).

>
> The result is that last month in Arbitron (July) the station
> was #5 in 25-54 in the highest billing radio market in the
> world.

Thats nice. But as I've said before, I've become so disgusted
with oldies radio today that I've turned my radio off. Now when
I can get Sirius (or XM) and listen to Morm N. Nite and the Cuz
Bruce Morrow, and all those great oldies that the big am/fm
radio stations forgot, I'll listen to the Jukebox or a CD/mp3
or nothing at all (which means no advertisers either).

>
> They were KTNQ since the mid-70's, and from 1960 to that
> time they were KGBS, and prior to that KPOP and KFVD (dating
> to 1922).

Actually I should have said format and not call letters. My
mistake.

>
> You said that KTNQ would be a station that should be shut
> off. I still have no idea why you think this way.

Actually since KTNQ is doing well I think they should keep
on going. I already touched on the format, so no need to
repeat that.
My intrest in stations going dark has several parts. First
I think there are too many stations on the air today. So
a little pruning is not a bad thing in my opinion. If a
station owner fails and the station keeps getting sold. I don't
have a problem with letting it go dark. The FCC would be the
final arbitor of this. If a stations is really needed (may be
the only one serving a community) then they can let it sell.
Otherwise shut down.

>
> Then why did you specifically say it should go silent? (TV
> staitons go dark, radio stations go silent)

I actually meant owner/format before the current talk format.
Again my mistke on not being clearer.
Either term is acceptable but the correct term for both is to
go dark. It refers to the power being shut down to the
transmitter and the tubes going dark. NOW I'm being a radio
geek.


>
> All stations in the US are "American radio." that sounds
> very racist, although I do not think it was your intent to
> insult 40,000,000 Americans of Hisanic descent, 75% of whom
> use Spanish radio.

Sorry but I disagree. I make a distinction between foreign
language stations. I believe that to assist in assimilating
in to the country stations should use english (thats the
Immersion I mentioned above). Oh and not to mention the Calif.
prop. to do away with bilingual education.
You've been to other countries. Did you get out and mingle
and listen and try to talk in local language and listen to
the local stations? I sure did. Learned the languages easier
and made friends too.
Racist? No, I understand what it's like, although I didn't
move to all the countries I've been to. I root for anyone
who comes to this country and works hard to get ahead, Hell
I root for anyone who works hard to get ahead.

>
> There are nearly 800 American radio station that broadcast
> in Spanish. They are 100% as "American" as any other
> stations in the US. What in the world are you
> thinking????????

I think I refuse to be baited David.
>
> Spanish language radio in the US is no different than any
> other kind of radio. Same advertisers, same rules, same
> ratings, same everything. (And many of those 70 are not in
> Spanish.)

Again I disagree and have already covered it.

>
> How does your station fare in the Akron Arbitron?
>

Well since we are a Non-comm and have almost no budget, we
are not in the top ten with the commercial stations.
But in the Non-comms we do good. We try to do good radio
and I think we succeed. Are we where I'd like to be? No
because I'd like to kick WMJI in the seat of the pants.
Exactly where we fall I couldn't tell you because I have
not seen the Non-comm ratings. I actually pay more attention
to the commercial ratings to see whats happening with the
"competition". Maybe you can tell me?

Now being that we have gotten way off the original discussion
and this has gotten so long that my music work and my hiking/gym
time are suffering, this will be the last long letter that I
respond to. Short and sweet from now on.

To reiterate my position. I think Oldies radio sucks now, and
that more songs should be added to "freshen up" the play lists

Mike Dane
WSTB-FM 88.9
wwwSundayOldiesJukebox.com
 
Re: A wealth of misinformation.

>
> So you think. but you know as well as I do that Arbitron is
> not as accurate as we wish it were.

Wrong. Do your research. Arbitron is accurate enough for its main purpose, which is the selling of ad time. The sample is based on what stations can afford, and what advertisers will trust. And the current level is adequate for both purposes, buying and selling.

> The younger audience is
> under reported because they don't want to carry and fill the
> diaries out.

Wrong. Arbitron recruits enough people in each cell, whether they be age, sex, ethnic or geographic (sampling units) to get near proportionality in the sample based on valid, returned, in tab diaries.

> I got one many years ago long before I was on
> radio and it went flying into the trash.

Wrong. Arbitron does not mail out diaries at random. They call and recruit, based ont he demos they are looking for.
>
> Banks use all kinds of information to decide on wether to
> loan
> money. The more collateral you have the better they like it.

Yes, because radio stations, except for the licence, which is an intangible and controlled by the government, there are few assets.
>
> Or to put it another way the less you really need the money
> the more likely you will be to get it.
> And as you say it is terribly difficult. Which also means it
> can and has been done.

Seldom enought o say it is not going to happen. And, with a format flip or a¨"new" format, it is not going to happen at all unless there are substantial non broadcast assets pledged to the loan.

> If you are trying to buy a station and don't have assets and
> a proven track record already, you're right you have a
> snowballs chance to get a loan with our some source of
> collateral.

With experience and with assets, I have not found a doable deal for a single market, even though it was a 4 station cluster. The bank could not foot the risk at any viable interest rate.
>
> No foreclosable assets? Think about this. How much did your
> home cost? and how many could you put on an average antenna
> site. housing is big and they aren't making anymore land.

Only AMs use large tracts of usable land. FMs tend to be on buildings, hills, mountains and leased towers.

A small AM, like a non-DA daytimes, will use an acre or two. It has to be pretty valuable land to make any difference insofar as equity value.

But there is a catch 22 you did not think of... the biggest asset of a station is its license. If you sell the land, there is no way to preserve the license, so the major asset has zero value. Moving an AM thse days is a major task, and often coverage suffers.
>
>
> You don't have a clue what I'm talking about here. I said
> don't micro manage. In other words don't breath down their
> necks 24/7/52. they put GM's, PD.s and MD's in place let
> them do thier job. They should know when to fly something
> to copporate for their approval. They should also know what
> the company policy is and the regs like EEOC and such and
> toe the line.

I thought you meant at the local level. Most corporate managers do not micromange, and only intervene when they can help or when things are not going correctly. However, the corporation is the licencee, not the GM, the PD or the CE. They must, by law, have knowledge of what is going on.
>
> Agreed stations can buy others to free up their signal. But
> if a station keeps having problems and new owners all the
> time
> I would not complain about the FCC stepping in and just
> pulling the license.
> As for spending the money to shut a station down. It may
> never happen, but never say never, because it just may.

A few stations go silent each year, often due to not being able to find a new site after eminent domain takes an old one. These tend to be really small AMs, where there was no profitability anyway. But there will not be a major trend in this direction. The FCC can not tell a licencee how to run the business, or half the stations in the US would be silent.
>
> >
> > Test for you: If a station has a 4 share in morning drive,
>
> > or a 15 share in 7-midnight, which is a better
> achievement?
>
> Hmm a larger share of a small pie or a small share of a
> large pie.

You did not answer. There is a definite answer here which is right. A or B. Show your stuff.

> > Every Clear Channel KISS is very different from every
> other
> > one. They are everything from rhythmic to hot AC to CHR to
>
> > rock leaning CHR. Every one researches and plays music in
> > the local market, and each one has its own PD.
>
> Unfortunatly having listend to a couple of the stations in
> different places they sure sounded alike to me. coincidence?

Nearly all CHRs have a lot of similarity, whether owned by Clear or a mom and pop in a small market. However, the CCU Kiss stations are different enough that an article in Airplay Monitor showed that there was more similaritly between a CCU and a non-CCU CHR in the same general area of the US than between any two major CCU owned Kiss stations.
>
>
> >
> > A year or two ago, Airplay Monitor did an article in which
>
> > the selected a couple of Kiss stations and found the music
>
> > to be as much as 50% different on individual stations,
> > despite all falling in the CHR / Hot AC spectrum.
>
> I would like to see that article. If you could post a link
> I would appreciate it.

It was several years ago, the magazine does not put the data on the web, and you will just have to take my word and that of Sean Ross, who edited Monitor back then. In any case, run a BDS or Mediabase on a few Kiss stations and see how very different they are across different parts of the US and in differently competitive markets. You can see that today with no effort.
>
> >
> > There are also a number of Kiss stations that are not
> owned
> > by Clear Channel, starting in the #1 market in the US.
>
> The kiss station in the number 1 market in the US is........
>
> KIIS-FM owned by Clear Channel.

LA is the #1 billing market, but not the #1 market. That is NY.

> The kiss station in the
> number
> 2 market is WRKS-FM owned by Emmis. Contrary to what
> Arbitron
> puts out LA is THE market.

So, NY with 17 million is smaller than LA with 13 million in the MSA, as defined by the OMB? Droll.

> But in all seriousness, Kiss is
> like
> Jack. It's a basic format and yes there will be some minor
> variation, but it is basically an "old school hip hop/R&B
> format. Unfortunatly I hear it way more than I like as they
> play
> it in the gym.

Kiss in NY is an r&b station. The other stations using the name are anything from whitebread upper Midwest CHRs that lean alternative, to highly rhythmic ones like KIIS in LA (which might share 20% of the music at most with the former) to Hot AC stations that are totally different. In fact, there is more difference in playlists and morning show approaches at the CCU Kiss stations today than there ever was between separately owned Top 40 stations inthe 50's and 60's. This is because, today, each station is locally researched and designed, while most Top 40's were near-identical from Spokane to Salisbury.
>
> > You really ought to research these things before you state
>
> > them, as saying that we are dealing with a single format
> is
> > wrong and very naive.
>
> You better take your own advice.

Wrong. You are the one who is confusing a name, selected for trademark and leagal reasons, with a format.
>
> 70 to 80 percent of the same songs is cookie cutter.

Wrong again. In any one format, the hits are going to be the hits all across the USA, with only slight variations due to some formats having ethnic considerations in some markets. This has been true since Snooky and Giselle sang on Your Hit Parade in the 50's.

> Not a good thing when you can
> pick it out. This is one case where I wish and hope I was
> totally wrong. But there is stil too much use of it.
> Again take some of your own advice.

VTing has been used for 40 years, and it has its place. In many formats, the listener, when interviewed, says, "shut up and play the music." VTing is very appropriate for the maintenance of brevity in such cases.
>
>
> > I am talking about 70 stations licensed by the FCC, in 6
> of
> > the top 10 markets, in fact.
>
> Seems to me David your specialty is Spanish language
> stations
> rather than english stations. And there is a difference to
> my ear, although I do love the music.

There is no difference. My specialty is major market stations, and I have seen that good radio is the same in any language. A country station is different from a hip hop station, too. And we have both of these, as well.

> Thanks for the laugh David. Sorry to disappoint you but I am
> not a geek.

This is a geek board. If you continuoulsly post, you are a geek. We all are.

> The same 450 songs over and over ad nauseum is sickening.
> I had a listener call last night and complained about this
> very
> thing

Sure, there are exceptions. There are also people who drive chartreuse cars, but there are not many of either. You are not going to cater to a small minority when the majority tells you what they want to hear and what they would tune out upon hearing.

>with not just the oldies stations she can get (3), but
> the classic rock stations as well and she is sitting where
> she can get Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown and Pittsburgh.

I already told you about going up against a stations with 1800 songs with one with 450. The one with 450 wone over 9 to 1 against the big list of stiff, tune out songs. There were 450 hits. The rest were stiffs... so the other staiton was playing 1400 songs nobody wanted to hear, 3 out of every 4 tunes in fact.

> > This, of course, is also not true.
>
> When you start getting regional VP's and all that, it's too
> long. Bureaucracy has a bad habit of growing.

It depends on the power of the regional person. If they run the day to day, and corporate is not involved, what is the difference?
> I'm glad to hear that. Thats the way it should be. Now the
> question is what do they do with it when they get it?
> Now if I had that kind of money to blow I might too.
> Although
> I would rather spend it on promoting the station.

I´d rather promote a good product than a bad one. In fact, I would rather have no promo dollars and good programming. I had one top 15 market station, in amarket with over 70 stations "in the book" at all times, where we were #1 for 20 years with no promotional dollars ever. No contests, no TV, no billboards. Good programming, most of the time double the share of the #2 station.
>
> For a non-comm we have good ratings from what I have seen.
> Considering that we have a small budget and little
> advetising
> and promotions, we do well. Little by little
> And we make WMJI just a bit nervous. which I love.

You are not even in WMJI's MSA.
>
> > Or... and I hope not... are you saying that Hispanic
> > Americans are not "real" Americans?
>
> Typical liberal accusations.

I am politically to the right of Genghis Kahn. Wrong assumption.

> For your information I am 2nd
> generation, my grandparents came from Italy. I believer that
> spanish radio in the US does a diservice to the latino
> community by holding them back from becoming a part of
> this country. Immersion is the best way to learn about
> a people, place, culture or a language.

You can not change a person´s music taste and the interests in their heritage in one generation. This is why NY had several Italian staitons into the 50's, and Cleveland, in the 50's and 60's had ethnic programming on nearly every station, even Polish and Italian on WJMO!
>
> >
> > Wrong. Stations take the research to determine the songs
> > listeners want to hear, and don't play the ones, like
> > Whittier Boulevard, that listers have zero interest in
> > hearing and which would cause many of the listeners to
> tune
> > out.
>
> And that's where you're wrong. Just because the song didn't
> the top 40 (or 100 for that matter. doesn't make it a bad
> song
> or mean that listeners will tune out. As someone told me not
>
> too long ago, The songs were shorter then so they will keep
> listening because they know more good songs are coming up.
> And you really need to throw some of these songs in because
> you are more likely to lose a listener because of the same
> tired songs over and over so a "New" oldie once in awhile
> to freshen up the playlist is a good thing.

Listeners, en masse, tell us that unfamiliar songs are tune outs. There is no reason to play a stiff if there are good songs available.

> Well which is it. The charts are wrong and inaccurate and
> can't
> be trusted or used or a place to start your research?

Only as a start. Then you have to verify if anyone wants to hear the song TODAY. Most songs don´t p0ass.

> As for your testing it sounds like you're not doing a good
> job. Some songs can indeed get a listener to turn a station
> off. If yuu want me to turn it off play in the year 2525 or
> Ohio. Click. But that list for the average listener is
> smaller
> than you think. After all they have been listening to the
> same 450 or so songs for how many years now?

Because they like them. And they do not like the other ones.

By the way, we must test pretty well (we have the most sophisticated research org I have seen) as we just got an A grade on programming from one of the investment analysts based on performance across all markets and stations... the best in the ranking.
>
> >
> > 3000 is way too many, but since we know LA listeners come
> > from many places, we overindulged ourselves in trying any
> > possibility to get good songs.
>
> Too many my patootie. Thats just getting started. If you're
> doing your job right you should be doing way more. There
> are about 11,000 songs on the top 100 from '55 to '75
> (might be '72, I forgot what year I stoped counting). Not
> too mention the bubbling under as well. In a case of that
> many songs I would sit the DJ's and MD down and presort the
> songs and then test the ones that passed muster. After all
> you won't get anyone to sit still that long.

What are you smoking? Every programmer I know has once in his or her career thought variety meant more quantity and got bitten or fired or both.

You can test as many songs as you want. And you can do multi session tests over many nights. Or use separate groups... if the recruit is balanced, you can mix results, like Aribtron does...

> Well you keep watching as radio slowly declines. And I'm
> going
> to laugh myself silly on this fixation you have on radio
> geeks.

It´s a geek board. I´m a geek... I started in radio as a geek, I am here because I am a geek. Same with you...

> >
> > They were KTNQ since the mid-70's, and from 1960 to that
> > time they were KGBS, and prior to that KPOP and KFVD
> (dating
> > to 1922).
>
> Actually I should have said format and not call letters. My
> mistake.

OK.
>
> >
> > You said that KTNQ would be a station that should be shut
> > off. I still have no idea why you think this way.
>
> Actually since KTNQ is doing well I think they should keep
> on going. I already touched on the format, so no need to
> repeat that.
> My intrest in stations going dark has several parts. First
> I think there are too many stations on the air today. So
> a little pruning is not a bad thing in my opinion.

Actually, in this Hemisphere, the US has fewer stations indexed to population than most. The problem is that there are more advertising vehicles.

>
> Sorry but I disagree. I make a distinction between foreign
> language stations. I believe that to assist in assimilating
> in to the country stations should use english (thats the
> Immersion I mentioned above). Oh and not to mention the
> Calif.
> prop. to do away with bilingual education.
> You've been to other countries. Did you get out and mingle
> and listen and try to talk in local language and listen to
> the local stations? I sure did. Learned the languages easier
>
> and made friends too.

I was 17 when I built my first radio station in Ecuador. I built it because, in talking to people, I learned there was no good music station, despite the market having nearly 50 stations. I speak 4 languages, and read Latin and Greek, by the way. My middle daughter is proficient in 7 languages, and has studied in 5 different countries. One can be bilingual or polyglot and still not want to hear music in the other languages, though. And that is the case.
 
Jumping In

> > > Test for you: If a station has a 4 share in morning
> drive,
> >
> > > or a 15 share in 7-midnight, which is a better
> > achievement?
> >

I'll give it a try. I guess the 4 share in the morning is a better achievement because mornings is a primetime for radio.


>
> > >>
> LA is the #1 billing market, but not the #1 market. That is
> NY.
>

I never knew that. Interesting, but I thought WLTW in New York City billed number one. Does LA stations in general bill higher than New York stations even though WLTW bills the most?

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Re: Jumping In

> > > > Test for you: If a station has a 4 share in morning
> > drive,
> > >
> > > > or a 15 share in 7-midnight, which is a better
> > > achievement?
> > >
>
> I'll give it a try. I guess the 4 share in the morning is a
> better achievement because mornings is a primetime for
> radio.

The average percentage of all persons in the universe using radio in the 6-10 AM period is around 25. The average in evenings is around 7. So, a 4 share in mornings is the same number of people as a 15 or so in evenings. In other words, the 4 and the 15 represent roughly the same number of people.
>
>
> >
> > > >>
> > LA is the #1 billing market, but not the #1 market. That
> is
> > NY.
> >
>
> I never knew that. Interesting, but I thought WLTW in New
> York City billed number one. Does LA stations in general
> bill higher than New York stations even though WLTW bills
> the most?

NY has slightly fewer viable stations. Out of the top 20 billing stations in the US, 10 are in LA, 7 in NY and 3 are in Chicago (2) and Atlanta (1).

LA has about $1.1 in 2005 revenues. NY has $850 million.
 
Re: A wealth of misinformation.

> > No, there are not. The number of under-45's listening to
> > even the most varied oldies stations is minuscule. One can
>
> > see this in each Arbitron report under audience compostion
>
> > in Maximiser The audience they get in the under-45 demo is
>
> > basically just enough to show in the ratings, in last
> place.
> > And the 45-54 is mostly 50-54, and shrinking.
>
> So you think. but you know as well as I do that Arbitron is
> not as accurate as we wish it were. The younger audience is
> under reported because they don't want to carry and fill the
>
> diaries out. I got one many years ago long before I was on
> radio and it went flying into the trash.
>
> > They never had any appreciable under 45 listening, with a
> > bit of an exception for the morning show, which does not
> > depend as much on the music. Same thing with stations like
>
> > KOOL in Phoenix, which have wider playlists, but are held
> up
> > mostly by a very good morning show, not by the oldies
> alone.
>
> See above and their morning show has zero music.
>
>
> > For many years, I did expansion and financing for a
> smaller
> > group (annual revenue of under $50 million) and even with
> a
> > number of cash flowing, high revenue stations in a top 15
> > market, we could not get financing that we could afford
> > (yes, there were 15% to 18% loans, but most stations in
> > smaller markets could never generate the BCF to pay them).
>
> >
> > And for a decade I have shopped some medium market deals
> for
> > myself, including significant equity and guarantees, but
> no
> > one I would deal with will loan for a single market deal.
> >
> > It is terribly difficult to finance a single station. And
> > banks want cash flowers, and no turn arounds and start
> ups.
> > So forget the "new formats" idea.
>
> Banks use all kinds of information to decide on wether to
> loan
> money. The more collateral you have the better they like it.
>
> Or to put it another way the less you really need the money
> the more likely you will be to get it.
> And as you say it is terribly difficult. Which also means it
>
> can and has been done.
>
> >
> > Public companies finance with equity, not loans, in many
> > cases. And single stations simply do not get financing. If
>
> > you already have stations, it is easier. But the huge
> > exposure in a single market will not pass a loan
> committee.
>
> Sometimes they do. And sometimes they use loans. A company
> will look every option over very carefully and see what will
>
> provide the best benefit to the company.
> If you are trying to buy a station and don't have assets and
>
> a proven track record already, you're right you have a
> snowballs chance to get a loan with our some source of
> collateral.
>
> >
> > But not in radio. No forclosable assets. Small banks
> seldom
> > do radio... unless the equity is someones other
> investments
> > and properties, like homes, etc.
>
> No foreclosable assets? Think about this. How much did your
> home cost? and how many could you put on an average antenna
> site. housing is big and they aren't making anymore land.
>
> >
> > You have no idea how a station runs, the job of the
> licensee
> > to protect the assets and licence, the legal restrictions,
>
> > the EEO and OSA requirements... You have to directly, or
> > through supervisors, watch everything that goes on.
>
> You don't have a clue what I'm talking about here. I said
> don't micro manage. In other words don't breath down their
> necks 24/7/52. they put GM's, PD.s and MD's in place let
> them do thier job. They should know when to fly something
> to copporate for their approval. They should also know what
> the company policy is and the regs like EEOC and such and
> toe the line.
>
>
> >
> > Nope. stations today can buy other stations and silence
> > them, if they want to loosen a directional (like WINS and
> > WADO did in NY) but very few of these deals happen. Nobody
>
> > is going to spend money to shut down stations so the night
>
> > AM signal can go digital... there has not been enough
> night
> > radio audience since the 50's to make that worthwhile.
>
> Agreed stations can buy others to free up their signal. But
> if a station keeps having problems and new owners all the
> time
> I would not complain about the FCC stepping in and just
> pulling the license.
> As for spending the money to shut a station down. It may
> never happen, but never say never, because it just may.
>
> >
> > Test for you: If a station has a 4 share in morning drive,
>
> > or a 15 share in 7-midnight, which is a better
> achievement?
>
> Hmm a larger share of a small pie or a small share of a
> large pie.
>
> >
> > Nearly all of it. The Bonita Springs case and the
> resultant
> > Docket 80-90 allowed A's to upgrade to B's or C's without
> a
> > hearing or allowing competitive applications, allowed move
>
> > ins, and allowed many new channels. This is the real
> problem
> > today... if there is one.
>
> I would say a large part of it. But you can't blame the
> whole
> state of radio on just that. Too many other things factor
> in.
>
> >
> > Every Clear Channel KISS is very different from every
> other
> > one. They are everything from rhythmic to hot AC to CHR to
>
> > rock leaning CHR. Every one researches and plays music in
> > the local market, and each one has its own PD.
>
> Unfortunatly having listend to a couple of the stations in
> different places they sure sounded alike to me. coincidence?
>
>
> >
> > A year or two ago, Airplay Monitor did an article in which
>
> > the selected a couple of Kiss stations and found the music
>
> > to be as much as 50% different on individual stations,
> > despite all falling in the CHR / Hot AC spectrum.
>
> I would like to see that article. If you could post a link
> I would appreciate it.
>
> >
> > There are also a number of Kiss stations that are not
> owned
> > by Clear Channel, starting in the #1 market in the US.
>
> The kiss station in the number 1 market in the US is........
>
> KIIS-FM owned by Clear Channel. The kiss station in the
> number
> 2 market is WRKS-FM owned by Emmis. Contrary to what
> Arbitron
> puts out LA is THE market. But in all seriousness, Kiss is
> like
> Jack. It's a basic format and yes there will be some minor
> variation, but it is basically an "old school hip hop/R&B
> format. Unfortunatly I hear it way more than I like as they
> play
> it in the gym.
>
> >
> > You really ought to research these things before you state
>
> > them, as saying that we are dealing with a single format
> is
> > wrong and very naive.
>
> You better take your own advice.
>
> >
> > Not the same songs, and voice tracking is far more limited
>
> > than you think. There is vastly less of it now than there
> > was in the 70's, for example. You really need to check
> your
> > facts before you post stuff like this.
>
> 70 to 80 percent of the same songs is cookie cutter.
> Let's see Clear Channel just let the MD who also did the
> mid-day show at WMJI go and they are having the afternoon
> drive DJ from one of their other stations in the cluster do
> a
> the show. The word is that it could be live, VT'd or a
> combo of the two. I really can't see someone doing 8 hours,
> can you? Most VT is still done overnights. I've even heard
> a combo of the two (again). Not a good thing when you can
> pick it out. This is one case where I wish and hope I was
> totally wrong. But there is stil too much use of it.
> Again take some of your own advice.
>
>
> > I am talking about 70 stations licensed by the FCC, in 6
> of
> > the top 10 markets, in fact.
>
> Seems to me David your specialty is Spanish language
> stations
> rather than english stations. And there is a difference to
> my ear, although I do love the music.
>
> >
> > No, you are a geek, like all who come here... myself
> > included. You are not an average listener. And one who
> > supposes that great depth of obscure musical knowledge
> > qualifies one as a programmer is totally wrong. So wrong
> > that in many big stations, the PD does not do the music...
> a
> > music director does.
>
> Thanks for the laugh David. Sorry to disappoint you but I am
>
> not a geek. Far from it. I'm more of a jock. Do I love my
> toys?
> you bet. But nope not a geek.
> As for being qualified to be a Programmer. It's not my
> knowledge
> of obscure music but my knowledge of the pop music of that
> time along with the obscure and pick good songs. That is one
>
> of our compaints of radio today (before we got off track).
> The same 450 songs over and over ad nauseum is sickening.
> I had a listener call last night and complained about this
> very
> thing with not just the oldies stations she can get (3), but
>
> the classic rock stations as well and she is sitting where
> she can get Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown and Pittsburgh.
> And about the PD/MD I know the MD does it as larger
> stations.
> Although you might want to remind Cat, from one of the
> messages
> he posted I think he might be confused. I also know that in
> smaller stations there is plenty of wearing of more than one
>
> hat.I have to admit if a station is going to play a limited
> number of songs, I like Cats idea. about 800 songs with
> another
> 500 specaialty songs thrown in to spread things out a bit.
>
> >
> > This, of course, is also not true.
>
> When you start getting regional VP's and all that, it's too
> long. Bureaucracy has a bad habit of growing.
>
> >
> > Most major and medium market stations spend tens if not
> > hundreds of thousands of dollars listening to listeners.
> > research is an organized, and replicable, way of finding
> out
> > what a listener wants. taking requests is not. At one
> > extreme, I know an LA station that spends a
> quarter-million
> > on audience research yearly... not Arbitron, not
> syndicated
> > stuff... real, proprietary research on listener needs and
> > expectations.
>
> I'm glad to hear that. Thats the way it should be. Now the
> question is what do they do with it when they get it?
> Now if I had that kind of money to blow I might too.
> Although
> I would rather spend it on promoting the station.
>
> > Not if you play requests. I presume you have good ratings
> to
> > make that statement? I have asked that before, and you
> don't
> > answer...
>
> For a non-comm we have good ratings from what I have seen.
> Considering that we have a small budget and little
> advetising
> and promotions, we do well. Little by little
> And we make WMJI just a bit nervous. which I love.
>
> >
> > Who cares? They are all American radio stations, ranging
> > from AC to Classic Country and Smooth Jazz.
> >
> > Or... and I hope not... are you saying that Hispanic
> > Americans are not "real" Americans?
>
> Typical liberal accusations. For your information I am 2nd
> generation, my grandparents came from Italy. I believer that
>
> spanish radio in the US does a diservice to the latino
> community by holding them back from becoming a part of
> this country. Immersion is the best way to learn about
> a people, place, culture or a language.
>
> >
> > Wrong. Stations take the research to determine the songs
> > listeners want to hear, and don't play the ones, like
> > Whittier Boulevard, that listers have zero interest in
> > hearing and which would cause many of the listeners to
> tune
> > out.
>
> And that's where you're wrong. Just because the song didn't
> the top 40 (or 100 for that matter. doesn't make it a bad
> song
> or mean that listeners will tune out. As someone told me not
>
> too long ago, The songs were shorter then so they will keep
> listening because they know more good songs are coming up.
> And you really need to throw some of these songs in because
> you are more likely to lose a listener because of the same
> tired songs over and over so a "New" oldie once in awhile
> to freshen up the playlist is a good thing.
>
> >
> > There is nothing that did not chart that is playable. Most
>
> > of what charted is no longer playable, either. This is why
>
> > we test songs, hundreds and even thousands of them... to
> > find out which are desired and which will destroy the
> > listening.
>
> Well which is it. The charts are wrong and inaccurate and
> can't
> be trusted or used or a place to start your research?
> As for your testing it sounds like you're not doing a good
> job. Some songs can indeed get a listener to turn a station
> off. If yuu want me to turn it off play in the year 2525 or
> Ohio. Click. But that list for the average listener is
> smaller
> than you think. After all they have been listening to the
> same 450 or so songs for how many years now?
>
> >
> > 3000 is way too many, but since we know LA listeners come
> > from many places, we overindulged ourselves in trying any
> > possibility to get good songs.
>
> Too many my patootie. Thats just getting started. If you're
> doing your job right you should be doing way more. There
> are about 11,000 songs on the top 100 from '55 to '75
> (might be '72, I forgot what year I stoped counting). Not
> too mention the bubbling under as well. In a case of that
> many songs I would sit the DJ's and MD down and presort the
> songs and then test the ones that passed muster. After all
> you won't get anyone to sit still that long.
>
> >
> > I suppose there are stations that play 3000 songs. I
> > probably have not noticed them because they do not get any
>
> > listening. I tend to look at stations that someone is
> > actually listening to. Playing 3000 songs is pretty much a
>
> > guarantee that the only people listening will be a bunch
> of
> > weird radio geeks.
>
> Well you keep watching as radio slowly declines. And I'm
> going
> to laugh myself silly on this fixation you have on radio
> geeks.
>
> >
> > We got the list over time. First, the PD and I and the new
>
> > airstaff, all of whom had been in radio about 35 years or
> > more, went on a trek to a major wholesaler 2000 miles away
>
> > and everything anyone remembered was purchased. Then we
> > looked for specific songs each of us remebered from having
>
> > played or programmed them. We tested all of them.
>
> Hmm kind of like we do, other than the wholesaler. I use
> collectors of and some dealers of Oldies music.
>
> >
> > When we kicked off the station, we had several weeks of a
> > listener constest to suggest songs we should play. And
> then
> > we tested the whole library and the prospect list on the
> > air, with a ballot published in the newspaper. We then did
> a
> > "real" statistically valid test 90 days after going on the
>
> > air, and got a clear definition of what was good and what
> > was not.
>
> >
> > Overall, there was a nearly a half-million spent on
> research
> > and getting the library and on digitally cleaning up many
> of
> > the songs to our standards.
>
> Here you're preaching to the choir. I spend more money then
> I
> shoul on music all the time. CD's. vinyl and even MP3's sent
> to
> me by collectors and even listeners. I'm also debating
> buying
> either the nitty gritty record cleaner or the VMI (I tihik
> it
> is).
>
> >
> > The result is that last month in Arbitron (July) the
> station
> > was #5 in 25-54 in the highest billing radio market in the
>
> > world.
>
> Thats nice. But as I've said before, I've become so
> disgusted
> with oldies radio today that I've turned my radio off. Now
> when
> I can get Sirius (or XM) and listen to Morm N. Nite and the
> Cuz
> Bruce Morrow, and all those great oldies that the big am/fm
> radio stations forgot, I'll listen to the Jukebox or a
> CD/mp3
> or nothing at all (which means no advertisers either).
>
> >
> > They were KTNQ since the mid-70's, and from 1960 to that
> > time they were KGBS, and prior to that KPOP and KFVD
> (dating
> > to 1922).
>
> Actually I should have said format and not call letters. My
> mistake.
>
> >
> > You said that KTNQ would be a station that should be shut
> > off. I still have no idea why you think this way.
>
> Actually since KTNQ is doing well I think they should keep
> on going. I already touched on the format, so no need to
> repeat that.
> My intrest in stations going dark has several parts. First
> I think there are too many stations on the air today. So
> a little pruning is not a bad thing in my opinion. If a
> station owner fails and the station keeps getting sold. I
> don't
> have a problem with letting it go dark. The FCC would be the
>
> final arbitor of this. If a stations is really needed (may
> be
> the only one serving a community) then they can let it sell.
>
> Otherwise shut down.
>
> >
> > Then why did you specifically say it should go silent? (TV
>
> > staitons go dark, radio stations go silent)
>
> I actually meant owner/format before the current talk
> format.
> Again my mistke on not being clearer.
> Either term is acceptable but the correct term for both is
> to
> go dark. It refers to the power being shut down to the
> transmitter and the tubes going dark. NOW I'm being a radio
> geek.
>
>
> >
> > All stations in the US are "American radio." that sounds
> > very racist, although I do not think it was your intent to
>
> > insult 40,000,000 Americans of Hisanic descent, 75% of
> whom
> > use Spanish radio.
>
> Sorry but I disagree. I make a distinction between foreign
> language stations. I believe that to assist in assimilating
> in to the country stations should use english (thats the
> Immersion I mentioned above). Oh and not to mention the
> Calif.
> prop. to do away with bilingual education.
> You've been to other countries. Did you get out and mingle
> and listen and try to talk in local language and listen to
> the local stations? I sure did. Learned the languages easier
>
> and made friends too.
> Racist? No, I understand what it's like, although I didn't
> move to all the countries I've been to. I root for anyone
> who comes to this country and works hard to get ahead, Hell
> I root for anyone who works hard to get ahead.
>
> >
> > There are nearly 800 American radio station that broadcast
>
> > in Spanish. They are 100% as "American" as any other
> > stations in the US. What in the world are you
> > thinking????????
>
> I think I refuse to be baited David.
> >
> > Spanish language radio in the US is no different than any
> > other kind of radio. Same advertisers, same rules, same
> > ratings, same everything. (And many of those 70 are not in
>
> > Spanish.)
>
> Again I disagree and have already covered it.
>
> >
> > How does your station fare in the Akron Arbitron?
> >
>
> Well since we are a Non-comm and have almost no budget, we
> are not in the top ten with the commercial stations.
> But in the Non-comms we do good. We try to do good radio
> and I think we succeed. Are we where I'd like to be? No
> because I'd like to kick WMJI in the seat of the pants.
> Exactly where we fall I couldn't tell you because I have
> not seen the Non-comm ratings. I actually pay more attention
>
> to the commercial ratings to see whats happening with the
> "competition". Maybe you can tell me?
>
> Now being that we have gotten way off the original
> discussion
> and this has gotten so long that my music work and my
> hiking/gym
> time are suffering, this will be the last long letter that I
>
> respond to. Short and sweet from now on.
>
> To reiterate my position. I think Oldies radio sucks now,
> and
> that more songs should be added to "freshen up" the play
> lists
>
> Mike Dane
> WSTB-FM 88.9
> wwwSundayOldiesJukebox.com
>
I thought you would like to know that in the Spring ratings for Akron, your station came in a solid third, 2.5 or so shares below the top noncomm performers and about 2.5 above #4.
 
Re: A wealth of misinformation.

> > > No, there are not. The number of under-45's listening to
>
> > > even the most varied oldies stations is minuscule. One
> can
> >
> > > see this in each Arbitron report under audience
> compostion
> >
> > > in Maximiser The audience they get in the under-45 demo
> is
> >
> > > basically just enough to show in the ratings, in last
> > place.
> > > And the 45-54 is mostly 50-54, and shrinking.
> >
> > So you think. but you know as well as I do that Arbitron
> is
> > not as accurate as we wish it were. The younger audience
> is
> > under reported because they don't want to carry and fill
> the
> >
> > diaries out. I got one many years ago long before I was on
>
> > radio and it went flying into the trash.
> >
> > > They never had any appreciable under 45 listening, with
> a
> > > bit of an exception for the morning show, which does not
>
> > > depend as much on the music. Same thing with stations
> like
> >
> > > KOOL in Phoenix, which have wider playlists, but are
> held
> > up
> > > mostly by a very good morning show, not by the oldies
> > alone.
> >
> > See above and their morning show has zero music.
> >
> >
> > > For many years, I did expansion and financing for a
> > smaller
> > > group (annual revenue of under $50 million) and even
> with
> > a
> > > number of cash flowing, high revenue stations in a top
> 15
> > > market, we could not get financing that we could afford
> > > (yes, there were 15% to 18% loans, but most stations in
> > > smaller markets could never generate the BCF to pay
> them).
> >
> > >
> > > And for a decade I have shopped some medium market deals
>
> > for
> > > myself, including significant equity and guarantees, but
>
> > no
> > > one I would deal with will loan for a single market
> deal.
> > >
> > > It is terribly difficult to finance a single station.
> And
> > > banks want cash flowers, and no turn arounds and start
> > ups.
> > > So forget the "new formats" idea.
> >
> > Banks use all kinds of information to decide on wether to
> > loan
> > money. The more collateral you have the better they like
> it.
> >
> > Or to put it another way the less you really need the
> money
> > the more likely you will be to get it.
> > And as you say it is terribly difficult. Which also means
> it
> >
> > can and has been done.
> >
> > >
> > > Public companies finance with equity, not loans, in many
>
> > > cases. And single stations simply do not get financing.
> If
> >
> > > you already have stations, it is easier. But the huge
> > > exposure in a single market will not pass a loan
> > committee.
> >
> > Sometimes they do. And sometimes they use loans. A company
>
> > will look every option over very carefully and see what
> will
> >
> > provide the best benefit to the company.
> > If you are trying to buy a station and don't have assets
> and
> >
> > a proven track record already, you're right you have a
> > snowballs chance to get a loan with our some source of
> > collateral.
> >
> > >
> > > But not in radio. No forclosable assets. Small banks
> > seldom
> > > do radio... unless the equity is someones other
> > investments
> > > and properties, like homes, etc.
> >
> > No foreclosable assets? Think about this. How much did
> your
> > home cost? and how many could you put on an average
> antenna
> > site. housing is big and they aren't making anymore land.
> >
> > >
> > > You have no idea how a station runs, the job of the
> > licensee
> > > to protect the assets and licence, the legal
> restrictions,
> >
> > > the EEO and OSA requirements... You have to directly, or
>
> > > through supervisors, watch everything that goes on.
> >
> > You don't have a clue what I'm talking about here. I said
> > don't micro manage. In other words don't breath down their
>
> > necks 24/7/52. they put GM's, PD.s and MD's in place let
> > them do thier job. They should know when to fly something
> > to copporate for their approval. They should also know
> what
> > the company policy is and the regs like EEOC and such and
> > toe the line.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Nope. stations today can buy other stations and silence
> > > them, if they want to loosen a directional (like WINS
> and
> > > WADO did in NY) but very few of these deals happen.
> Nobody
> >
> > > is going to spend money to shut down stations so the
> night
> >
> > > AM signal can go digital... there has not been enough
> > night
> > > radio audience since the 50's to make that worthwhile.
> >
> > Agreed stations can buy others to free up their signal.
> But
> > if a station keeps having problems and new owners all the
> > time
> > I would not complain about the FCC stepping in and just
> > pulling the license.
> > As for spending the money to shut a station down. It may
> > never happen, but never say never, because it just may.
> >
> > >
> > > Test for you: If a station has a 4 share in morning
> drive,
> >
> > > or a 15 share in 7-midnight, which is a better
> > achievement?
> >
> > Hmm a larger share of a small pie or a small share of a
> > large pie.
> >
> > >
> > > Nearly all of it. The Bonita Springs case and the
> > resultant
> > > Docket 80-90 allowed A's to upgrade to B's or C's
> without
> > a
> > > hearing or allowing competitive applications, allowed
> move
> >
> > > ins, and allowed many new channels. This is the real
> > problem
> > > today... if there is one.
> >
> > I would say a large part of it. But you can't blame the
> > whole
> > state of radio on just that. Too many other things factor
> > in.
> >
> > >
> > > Every Clear Channel KISS is very different from every
> > other
> > > one. They are everything from rhythmic to hot AC to CHR
> to
> >
> > > rock leaning CHR. Every one researches and plays music
> in
> > > the local market, and each one has its own PD.
> >
> > Unfortunatly having listend to a couple of the stations in
>
> > different places they sure sounded alike to me.
> coincidence?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > A year or two ago, Airplay Monitor did an article in
> which
> >
> > > the selected a couple of Kiss stations and found the
> music
> >
> > > to be as much as 50% different on individual stations,
> > > despite all falling in the CHR / Hot AC spectrum.
> >
> > I would like to see that article. If you could post a link
>
> > I would appreciate it.
> >
> > >
> > > There are also a number of Kiss stations that are not
> > owned
> > > by Clear Channel, starting in the #1 market in the US.
> >
> > The kiss station in the number 1 market in the US
> is........
> >
> > KIIS-FM owned by Clear Channel. The kiss station in the
> > number
> > 2 market is WRKS-FM owned by Emmis. Contrary to what
> > Arbitron
> > puts out LA is THE market. But in all seriousness, Kiss is
>
> > like
> > Jack. It's a basic format and yes there will be some minor
>
> > variation, but it is basically an "old school hip hop/R&B
> > format. Unfortunatly I hear it way more than I like as
> they
> > play
> > it in the gym.
> >
> > >
> > > You really ought to research these things before you
> state
> >
> > > them, as saying that we are dealing with a single format
>
> > is
> > > wrong and very naive.
> >
> > You better take your own advice.
> >
> > >
> > > Not the same songs, and voice tracking is far more
> limited
> >
> > > than you think. There is vastly less of it now than
> there
> > > was in the 70's, for example. You really need to check
> > your
> > > facts before you post stuff like this.
> >
> > 70 to 80 percent of the same songs is cookie cutter.
> > Let's see Clear Channel just let the MD who also did the
> > mid-day show at WMJI go and they are having the afternoon
>
> > drive DJ from one of their other stations in the cluster
> do
> > a
> > the show. The word is that it could be live, VT'd or a
> > combo of the two. I really can't see someone doing 8
> hours,
> > can you? Most VT is still done overnights. I've even heard
>
> > a combo of the two (again). Not a good thing when you can
> > pick it out. This is one case where I wish and hope I was
> > totally wrong. But there is stil too much use of it.
> > Again take some of your own advice.
> >
> >
> > > I am talking about 70 stations licensed by the FCC, in 6
>
> > of
> > > the top 10 markets, in fact.
> >
> > Seems to me David your specialty is Spanish language
> > stations
> > rather than english stations. And there is a difference to
>
> > my ear, although I do love the music.
> >
> > >
> > > No, you are a geek, like all who come here... myself
> > > included. You are not an average listener. And one who
> > > supposes that great depth of obscure musical knowledge
> > > qualifies one as a programmer is totally wrong. So wrong
>
> > > that in many big stations, the PD does not do the
> music...
> > a
> > > music director does.
> >
> > Thanks for the laugh David. Sorry to disappoint you but I
> am
> >
> > not a geek. Far from it. I'm more of a jock. Do I love my
> > toys?
> > you bet. But nope not a geek.
> > As for being qualified to be a Programmer. It's not my
> > knowledge
> > of obscure music but my knowledge of the pop music of that
>
> > time along with the obscure and pick good songs. That is
> one
> >
> > of our compaints of radio today (before we got off track).
>
> > The same 450 songs over and over ad nauseum is sickening.
> > I had a listener call last night and complained about this
>
> > very
> > thing with not just the oldies stations she can get (3),
> but
> >
> > the classic rock stations as well and she is sitting where
>
> > she can get Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown and Pittsburgh.
> > And about the PD/MD I know the MD does it as larger
> > stations.
> > Although you might want to remind Cat, from one of the
> > messages
> > he posted I think he might be confused. I also know that
> in
> > smaller stations there is plenty of wearing of more than
> one
> >
> > hat.I have to admit if a station is going to play a
> limited
> > number of songs, I like Cats idea. about 800 songs with
> > another
> > 500 specaialty songs thrown in to spread things out a bit.
>
> >
> > >
> > > This, of course, is also not true.
> >
> > When you start getting regional VP's and all that, it's
> too
> > long. Bureaucracy has a bad habit of growing.
> >
> > >
> > > Most major and medium market stations spend tens if not
> > > hundreds of thousands of dollars listening to listeners.
>
> > > research is an organized, and replicable, way of finding
>
> > out
> > > what a listener wants. taking requests is not. At one
> > > extreme, I know an LA station that spends a
> > quarter-million
> > > on audience research yearly... not Arbitron, not
> > syndicated
> > > stuff... real, proprietary research on listener needs
> and
> > > expectations.
> >
> > I'm glad to hear that. Thats the way it should be. Now the
>
> > question is what do they do with it when they get it?
> > Now if I had that kind of money to blow I might too.
> > Although
> > I would rather spend it on promoting the station.
> >
> > > Not if you play requests. I presume you have good
> ratings
> > to
> > > make that statement? I have asked that before, and you
> > don't
> > > answer...
> >
> > For a non-comm we have good ratings from what I have seen.
>
> > Considering that we have a small budget and little
> > advetising
> > and promotions, we do well. Little by little
> > And we make WMJI just a bit nervous. which I love.
> >
> > >
> > > Who cares? They are all American radio stations, ranging
>
> > > from AC to Classic Country and Smooth Jazz.
> > >
> > > Or... and I hope not... are you saying that Hispanic
> > > Americans are not "real" Americans?
> >
> > Typical liberal accusations. For your information I am 2nd
>
> > generation, my grandparents came from Italy. I believer
> that
> >
> > spanish radio in the US does a diservice to the latino
> > community by holding them back from becoming a part of
> > this country. Immersion is the best way to learn about
> > a people, place, culture or a language.
> >
> > >
> > > Wrong. Stations take the research to determine the songs
>
> > > listeners want to hear, and don't play the ones, like
> > > Whittier Boulevard, that listers have zero interest in
> > > hearing and which would cause many of the listeners to
> > tune
> > > out.
> >
> > And that's where you're wrong. Just because the song
> didn't
> > the top 40 (or 100 for that matter. doesn't make it a bad
> > song
> > or mean that listeners will tune out. As someone told me
> not
> >
> > too long ago, The songs were shorter then so they will
> keep
> > listening because they know more good songs are coming up.
>
> > And you really need to throw some of these songs in
> because
> > you are more likely to lose a listener because of the same
>
> > tired songs over and over so a "New" oldie once in awhile
> > to freshen up the playlist is a good thing.
> >
> > >
> > > There is nothing that did not chart that is playable.
> Most
> >
> > > of what charted is no longer playable, either. This is
> why
> >
> > > we test songs, hundreds and even thousands of them... to
>
> > > find out which are desired and which will destroy the
> > > listening.
> >
> > Well which is it. The charts are wrong and inaccurate and
> > can't
> > be trusted or used or a place to start your research?
> > As for your testing it sounds like you're not doing a good
>
> > job. Some songs can indeed get a listener to turn a
> station
> > off. If yuu want me to turn it off play in the year 2525
> or
> > Ohio. Click. But that list for the average listener is
> > smaller
> > than you think. After all they have been listening to the
> > same 450 or so songs for how many years now?
> >
> > >
> > > 3000 is way too many, but since we know LA listeners
> come
> > > from many places, we overindulged ourselves in trying
> any
> > > possibility to get good songs.
> >
> > Too many my patootie. Thats just getting started. If
> you're
> > doing your job right you should be doing way more. There
> > are about 11,000 songs on the top 100 from '55 to '75
> > (might be '72, I forgot what year I stoped counting). Not
> > too mention the bubbling under as well. In a case of that
> > many songs I would sit the DJ's and MD down and presort
> the
> > songs and then test the ones that passed muster. After all
>
> > you won't get anyone to sit still that long.
> >
> > >
> > > I suppose there are stations that play 3000 songs. I
> > > probably have not noticed them because they do not get
> any
> >
> > > listening. I tend to look at stations that someone is
> > > actually listening to. Playing 3000 songs is pretty much
> a
> >
> > > guarantee that the only people listening will be a bunch
>
> > of
> > > weird radio geeks.
> >
> > Well you keep watching as radio slowly declines. And I'm
> > going
> > to laugh myself silly on this fixation you have on radio
> > geeks.
> >
> > >
> > > We got the list over time. First, the PD and I and the
> new
> >
> > > airstaff, all of whom had been in radio about 35 years
> or
> > > more, went on a trek to a major wholesaler 2000 miles
> away
> >
> > > and everything anyone remembered was purchased. Then we
> > > looked for specific songs each of us remebered from
> having
> >
> > > played or programmed them. We tested all of them.
> >
> > Hmm kind of like we do, other than the wholesaler. I use
> > collectors of and some dealers of Oldies music.
> >
> > >
> > > When we kicked off the station, we had several weeks of
> a
> > > listener constest to suggest songs we should play. And
> > then
> > > we tested the whole library and the prospect list on the
>
> > > air, with a ballot published in the newspaper. We then
> did
> > a
> > > "real" statistically valid test 90 days after going on
> the
> >
> > > air, and got a clear definition of what was good and
> what
> > > was not.
> >
> > >
> > > Overall, there was a nearly a half-million spent on
> > research
> > > and getting the library and on digitally cleaning up
> many
> > of
> > > the songs to our standards.
> >
> > Here you're preaching to the choir. I spend more money
> then
> > I
> > shoul on music all the time. CD's. vinyl and even MP3's
> sent
> > to
> > me by collectors and even listeners. I'm also debating
> > buying
> > either the nitty gritty record cleaner or the VMI (I tihik
>
> > it
> > is).
> >
> > >
> > > The result is that last month in Arbitron (July) the
> > station
> > > was #5 in 25-54 in the highest billing radio market in
> the
> >
> > > world.
> >
> > Thats nice. But as I've said before, I've become so
> > disgusted
> > with oldies radio today that I've turned my radio off. Now
>
> > when
> > I can get Sirius (or XM) and listen to Morm N. Nite and
> the
> > Cuz
> > Bruce Morrow, and all those great oldies that the big
> am/fm
> > radio stations forgot, I'll listen to the Jukebox or a
> > CD/mp3
> > or nothing at all (which means no advertisers either).
> >
> > >
> > > They were KTNQ since the mid-70's, and from 1960 to that
>
> > > time they were KGBS, and prior to that KPOP and KFVD
> > (dating
> > > to 1922).
> >
> > Actually I should have said format and not call letters.
> My
> > mistake.
> >
> > >
> > > You said that KTNQ would be a station that should be
> shut
> > > off. I still have no idea why you think this way.
> >
> > Actually since KTNQ is doing well I think they should keep
>
> > on going. I already touched on the format, so no need to
> > repeat that.
> > My intrest in stations going dark has several parts. First
>
> > I think there are too many stations on the air today. So
> > a little pruning is not a bad thing in my opinion. If a
> > station owner fails and the station keeps getting sold. I
> > don't
> > have a problem with letting it go dark. The FCC would be
> the
> >
> > final arbitor of this. If a stations is really needed (may
>
> > be
> > the only one serving a community) then they can let it
> sell.
> >
> > Otherwise shut down.
> >
> > >
> > > Then why did you specifically say it should go silent?
> (TV
> >
> > > staitons go dark, radio stations go silent)
> >
> > I actually meant owner/format before the current talk
> > format.
> > Again my mistke on not being clearer.
> > Either term is acceptable but the correct term for both is
>
> > to
> > go dark. It refers to the power being shut down to the
> > transmitter and the tubes going dark. NOW I'm being a
> radio
> > geek.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > All stations in the US are "American radio." that sounds
>
> > > very racist, although I do not think it was your intent
> to
> >
> > > insult 40,000,000 Americans of Hisanic descent, 75% of
> > whom
> > > use Spanish radio.
> >
> > Sorry but I disagree. I make a distinction between foreign
>
> > language stations. I believe that to assist in
> assimilating
> > in to the country stations should use english (thats the
> > Immersion I mentioned above). Oh and not to mention the
> > Calif.
> > prop. to do away with bilingual education.
> > You've been to other countries. Did you get out and mingle
>
> > and listen and try to talk in local language and listen to
>
> > the local stations? I sure did. Learned the languages
> easier
> >
> > and made friends too.
> > Racist? No, I understand what it's like, although I didn't
>
> > move to all the countries I've been to. I root for anyone
> > who comes to this country and works hard to get ahead,
> Hell
> > I root for anyone who works hard to get ahead.
> >
> > >
> > > There are nearly 800 American radio station that
> broadcast
> >
> > > in Spanish. They are 100% as "American" as any other
> > > stations in the US. What in the world are you
> > > thinking????????
> >
> > I think I refuse to be baited David.
> > >
> > > Spanish language radio in the US is no different than
> any
> > > other kind of radio. Same advertisers, same rules, same
> > > ratings, same everything. (And many of those 70 are not
> in
> >
> > > Spanish.)
> >
> > Again I disagree and have already covered it.
> >
> > >
> > > How does your station fare in the Akron Arbitron?
> > >
> >
> > Well since we are a Non-comm and have almost no budget, we
>
> > are not in the top ten with the commercial stations.
> > But in the Non-comms we do good. We try to do good radio
> > and I think we succeed. Are we where I'd like to be? No
> > because I'd like to kick WMJI in the seat of the pants.
> > Exactly where we fall I couldn't tell you because I have
> > not seen the Non-comm ratings. I actually pay more
> attention
> >
> > to the commercial ratings to see whats happening with the
> > "competition". Maybe you can tell me?
> >
> > Now being that we have gotten way off the original
> > discussion
> > and this has gotten so long that my music work and my
> > hiking/gym
> > time are suffering, this will be the last long letter that
> I
> >
> > respond to. Short and sweet from now on.
> >
> > To reiterate my position. I think Oldies radio sucks now,
> > and
> > that more songs should be added to "freshen up" the play
> > lists
> >
> > Mike Dane
> > WSTB-FM 88.9
> > wwwSundayOldiesJukebox.com
> >
> I thought you would like to know that in the Spring ratings
> for Akron, your station came in a solid third, 2.5 or so
> shares below the top noncomm performers and about 2.5 above
> #4.
>
I'm sorry!!! I accidentally looked at TSL. You are actually a distant second in AQH, which puts you ahead of what I thought was the #2 station. You don't show up in the Cleveland ratings.
 
Re: A wealth of misinformation.

> I thought you would like to know that in the Spring ratings
> for Akron, your station came in a solid third, 2.5 or so
> shares below the top noncomm performers and about 2.5 above
> #4.
>

The station has just over a 1 share, and is 23rd in the market 12+. #1 station has just over a 7 share.
 
request

it would be great if you could PLEASE delete the previous post before you type in your response. We want to read your comments but it takes forever to scroll down through the entire thread you leave in to read your postings. I suspect most won't think it's worth the effort to try & pick through it all. thanks.
 
Re: request

> it would be great if you could PLEASE delete the previous
> post before you type in your response. We want to read your
> comments but it takes forever to scroll down through the
> entire thread you leave in to read your postings. I suspect
> most won't think it's worth the effort to try & pick through
> it all. thanks.
>
I wanted to but wasn't sure of the procedure.
 
how-to

It's EZ- all you have to do is drag your mouse over the text you want to get rid of, hit DELETE and it's gone. I usually leave a pertinent line or even paragraph from the post I'm responding to for reference purposes but it really helps us trying to read & respond (and I'm sure it helps keep the site from bogging down) to nuke these big, long threads inside our responses. thanks.

> I wanted to but wasn't sure of the procedure.
 
Re: how-to

> It's EZ- all you have to do is drag your mouse over the text
> you want to get rid of, hit DELETE and it's gone. I usually
> leave a pertinent line or even paragraph from the post I'm
> responding to for reference purposes but it really helps us
> trying to read & respond (and I'm sure it helps keep the
> site from bogging down) to nuke these big, long threads
> inside our responses. thanks.
>
> > I wanted to but wasn't sure of the procedure.
>
Thanks!
 
Re: A wealth of misinformation.

> Wrong. Do your research. Arbitron is accurate enough for its
> main purpose, which is the selling of ad time. The sample is
> based on what stations can afford, and what advertisers will
> trust. And the current level is adequate for both purposes,
> buying and selling.

Oh? then why is CC planning on starting their own
rating/research service. And why is infinity going elsewhere
as well?

>
> Wrong. Arbitron recruits enough people in each cell, whether
> they be age, sex, ethnic or geographic (sampling units) to
> get near proportionality in the sample based on valid,
> returned, in tab diaries.

Sorry but some of the PD's and MD's I have talked to lament
the fact they the younger Demographics are under represented.

> Wrong. Arbitron does not mail out diaries at random. They
> call and recruit, based ont he demos they are looking for.
> >


Well I recieved a diary unasked, unrequested and believe me
uninterested. It may be supposed to work that way but it didn't.
And how many other mistakes are made?

>
> Yes, because radio stations, except for the licence, which
> is an intangible and controlled by the government, there are
> few assets.

But one of the valuable assets still happens to be any land owned
by the station.

>
> With experience and with assets, I have not found a doable
> deal for a single market, even though it was a 4 station
> cluster. The bank could not foot the risk at any viable
> interest rate.

No comment.


> Only AMs use large tracts of usable land. FMs tend to be on
> buildings, hills, mountains and leased towers.
>
> A small AM, like a non-DA daytimes, will use an acre or two.
> It has to be pretty valuable land to make any difference
> insofar as equity value.
>
> But there is a catch 22 you did not think of... the biggest
> asset of a station is its license. If you sell the land,
> there is no way to preserve the license, so the major asset
> has zero value. Moving an AM thse days is a major task, and
> often coverage suffers.

Any tract of land is in play right now thanks to Kelo v. New
London. I even read already where a city is threatening a station
with Eminent domain.
As for the license being the biggest asset, that used to be true.
But thanks to the supreme court decision it may not be the case
anymore.


> A few stations go silent each year, often due to not being
> able to find a new site after eminent domain takes an old
> one. These tend to be really small AMs, where there was no
> profitability anyway. But there will not be a major trend in
> this direction. The FCC can not tell a licencee how to run
> the business, or half the stations in the US would be
> silent.

We shall have to wait and see what happens with more IBOC
coming online.

> > Hmm a larger share of a small pie or a small share of a
> > large pie.
>
> You did not answer. There is a definite answer here which is
> right. A or B. Show your stuff.

Oh but I did answer. And did it so I could see you do your "stuff".
I honestly thought you would get it. I'm surprised that you didn't.
I know that morning Drive is the big pie. Now think about what
I said and get back to me. Until then I'm going to sit here and
laugh.



> LA is the #1 billing market, but not the #1 market. That is
> NY.

Actually there was a news item on the proposed switch. I wish
I could find it so I could link to it. It would make it easier.


> So, NY with 17 million is smaller than LA with 13 million in
> the MSA, as defined by the Eminent domain? Droll.

Actually the figures I've seen are from 1997 and show New York
with about 19m and L.A with 15m and estimated growth of +2% for
NY and +7.4%


> Kiss in NY is an r&b station.

Lokk at their website. It says Old school/R&B, which is what
I said.

> VTing has been used for 40 years, and it has its place. In
> many formats, the listener, when interviewed, says, "shut up
> and play the music." VTing is very appropriate for the
> maintenance of brevity in such cases.

yes it has. and I have even been known to use it when I am
working a concert or such. But too much is a bad thing in
my opinion.


> I already told you about going up against a stations with
> 1800 songs with one with 450. The one with 450 wone over 9
> to 1 against the big list of stiff, tune out songs. There
> were 450 hits. The rest were stiffs... so the other staiton
> was playing 1400 songs nobody wanted to hear, 3 out of every
> 4 tunes in fact.

That is the trick. picking good songs. Most corporate stations
have lost the skill/science/art of it.

> I´d rather promote a good product than a bad one. In fact, I
> would rather have no promo dollars and good programming. I
> had one top 15 market station, in amarket with over 70
> stations "in the book" at all times, where we were #1 for 20
> years with no promotional dollars ever. No contests, no TV,
> no billboards. Good programming, most of the time double the
> share of the #2 station.

I'd rather promote a good product too. And I do.
As for the station that never promoted, which station was that
that is very unusual. Most stations do it even if its only
really just goodwill.

> You are not even in WMJI's MSA.

True, but when they rip off part of our name for a sunday night
request show and competer against us. well what can I say.
Although arbitron sets us as different markets, here in the
area we generally consider it one large market.

> >
> > > Or... and I hope not... are you saying that Hispanic
> > > Americans are not "real" Americans?
> >
> > Typical liberal accusations.
>
> I am politically to the right of Genghis Kahn. Wrong
> assumption.

Then you shouldn't use liberal tactics to stop discussion.
And for your info, compared to me you are a liberal.
And in my opinion Genghis Khan was a wimp.

> You can not change a person´s music taste and the interests
> in their heritage in one generation. This is why NY had
> several Italian staitons into the 50's, and Cleveland, in
> the 50's and 60's had ethnic programming on nearly every
> station, even Polish and Italian on WJMO!

Hell we still have commercial stations in Cleveland that
STILL have ethnic shows. Its nice for a taste of home, but
stations shouldnt be strictly ethnic.


>
> Listeners, en masse, tell us that unfamiliar songs are tune
> outs. There is no reason to play a stiff if there are good
> songs available.

It depends on the presentation of the unfamiliar song. Have the
DJ talk about it a bit and you have a hook.
And I'm not talking about stiffs. I'm talking about good songs
that people (like you) didn't hear maybe because of all the
payola and creative accounting you hooler about on the charts.


> Only as a start. Then you have to verify if anyone wants to
> hear the song TODAY. Most songs don´t p0ass.

I cant eve trust you guys to find good songs and you expect
me to trust you to test them? please.

> Because they like them. And they do not like the other ones.

And they do get tired of them.

>
> By the way, we must test pretty well (we have the most
> sophisticated research org I have seen) as we just got an A
> grade on programming from one of the investment analysts
> based on performance across all markets and stations... the
> best in the ranking.

Thats nice. That and $20 will get you a cup of coffee. Analysts.
Christ.


> What are you smoking? Every programmer I know has once in
> his or her career thought variety meant more quantity and
> got bitten or fired or both.

Quantity with out quality doesnt work.

>
> You can test as many songs as you want. And you can do multi
> session tests over many nights. Or use separate groups... if
> the recruit is balanced, you can mix results, like Aribtron
> does...

> It´s a geek board. I´m a geek... I started in radio as a
> geek, I am here because I am a geek. Same with you...

Just because someone frequents here doesn't make them a geek.
And I would never make that assumption just because someone
read and posted here.
As for being a geek myself. I do like my tech stuff but I also
like my training. Like I told you I spend a lot of time hiking,
training in the gym and in the training hall. I bust my tail
to work out. I am far from a geek.

> I was 17 when I built my first radio station in Ecuador. I
> built it because, in talking to people, I learned there was
> no good music station, despite the market having nearly 50
> stations. I speak 4 languages, and read Latin and Greek, by
> the way. My middle daughter is proficient in 7 languages,
> and has studied in 5 different countries. One can be
> bilingual or polyglot and still not want to hear music in
> the other languages, though. And that is the case.
>
Then you short changed yourself. I LOVE listening to the music
of the countries I visit. It helps me get a feel for the
people there. I have very fond memories of all the countries
in europe and the mid-east that I visited and still have some
of the 45's and tapes that I bought. And I still talk to some
of those people that I made friends with too.
Oh and when I was 17 David, I was in Boot camp at Great lakes
in winter.

<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by MikeDane on 09/18/05 11:32 AM.</FONT></P>
 
Re: great radio

Don't think I've forgotten about you Cat.

> However, that does not mean all "corporate" (commercial)
> radio is evil. Mike Dane, the King Of Non-Com in central
> Ohio or somewhere, slams several of us because we're in
> commercial radio AND we view things differently than he.
> Since most radio trends are (and have always been) set by
> commercially-owned stations, he should think for just a
> moment before he automatically slams everything put forth by
> a number of us. Where Mike views radio is from a relatively
> secluded place- many of us (this doesn't make us smarter nor
> better) are in places where we can view radio from a much
> bigger, broader and different perspective.

I slam the several people here (which you still havent proved
you're really one of them) becaus they have the same old
brown nose corporate/consultant attitude/thoughts that has
put radio in the gutter. The bunch of you combined haven't
had an original progamming idea or improved radio for a long
time. As for the trends I watch what goes on and I pay attention
to markets all across the country. Not just my area. Oh and the
secluded part makes me laugh considering I chat with people in]
the business, listeners, and music collectors all across the
US and some in other countries. So don't tell me about
broader and different perspectives.

>
> Differences in opinion are how we keep things fresh.
> Disagreeing for the sake of doing so, just so he can piss on
> his little corner of radio, is what it is--
> a pitiful attempt to run with the big dogs. And, for
> radio's contenders it is very easy to pick out the
> pretenders (M. Dane).

You're right about one thing. Difference of opinion is how
you can keep things fresh. Unfortunatly you all march to
the same sorry drum beat.
I'm not pissing on my corner cat, I'm pissing on YOUR corner
because your corporate radio SUCKS.
As for running with the big dogs. I can and I do which is more
than I can say for you. Like I've said befor. I talk the talk
and I walk the walk. Every Sunday night, I've asked you for
some proof and you havent given one shred of it. You talk
about contenders and pretenders and I prove I'm a contender
because I am on the air. You don't show us anything. So who's
the pretender. I'll tell you what Cat, next time you come out
of where ever you're hiding, come on down to Akron and I will
step aside and let you do your thing (if you can) and we'll
see if you can walk the walk.
Oh and thanks for calling me the King of Non-Comms. I just
might use that. And about our little non-comm station, even
the big guys have been known to listen to us, guys like Norm N.
Nite who lives in Cleveland.

Mike Dane
WSTB-FM 88.9
www.SundayOldiesJukebox.
 
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