The Q102 of yesteryear

[NoWayNoCC]

At one time we had FOUR AC stations in Cincinnati: WIMJ, WWNK, WRRM, and WJOJ. Now we only have one.

WIMJ and WJOJ weren't even around at the same time. And we have at least 2 now (I'm counting hot AC with other AC's).

 

[Elephant]

Harry, I don't disagree with you either.  But what people tend to forget is that a lot of these broadcasting companies weren't doing too well.  Before consolidation, WKRC was losing money.  Hoker - which owned the old 94.9 The FOX - had gotten into some bad deals and exited the business.  Booth - which owned WINK/WSAI - was also having trouble.  Pathfinder - former WCKY/WWEZ - is now in smaller markets where the big boys don't play.  Where are the Daltons these days?  Where's Taft/Great American/Citicasters?  Where is Cecil Heftel?  I just don't think consolidation was avoidable.  It's a different world with so many more choices today.  You can't play the games you did in 1984, just as in 1984 you wouldn't play the games you did in 1964.  As you said in one of your previous posts, listeners are past those days now.  They aren't wowed by zany DJs on the morning zoo anymore.

Bandit, did you read my follow up post?  I said that WWEZ was on at the time of WJOJ, WWNK, WLLT, and WRRM all doing Soft AC at the same time.  WJOJ was more gold-based, and WWEZ was very sleepy.  WINK had no direction and the ratings sowed it. WIMJ came on in the early 90s and it was identical to WINK which had brightened and gained by W-Lite changing to Classic Hits. At that time, WRRM was still suffering with a boring image and no direction.

Since you've never actually worked in radio, I wouldn't expect you to understand the differences between an AC like Warm 98 and an Adult Hits station like MIX.

Why do I bother replying to you?

 

[NoWayNoCC]

Bandit, did you read my follow up post? I said that WWEZ was on at the time of WJOJ, WWNK, WLLT, and WRRM all doing Soft AC at the same time.

WWEZ wasn't AC yet back then.

Since you've never actually worked in radio, I wouldn't expect you to understand the differences between an AC like Warm 98 and an Adult Hits station like MIX.

To repeat, Mix is hot AC (a form of AC).

Why do I bother replying to you?

Because it bips.

 

[onegreatplace]

Wasn't it cool when cars had no seat belts?

 

[titoisradio]

Harry, I don't disagree with you either. But what people tend to forget is that a lot of these broadcasting companies weren't doing too well. Before consolidation, WKRC was losing money. Hoker - which owned the old 94.9 The FOX - had gotten into some bad deals and exited the business. Booth - which owned WINK/WSAI - was also having trouble. Pathfinder - former WCKY/WWEZ - is now in smaller markets where the big boys don't play. Where are the Daltons these days? Where's Taft/Great American/Citicasters? Where is Cecil Heftel? I just don't think consolidation was avoidable. It's a different world with so many more choices today. You can't play the games you did in 1984, just as in 1984 you wouldn't play the games you did in 1964. As you said in one of your previous posts, listeners are past those days now. They aren't wowed by zany DJs on the morning zoo anymore.

Bandit, did you read my follow up post? I said that WWEZ was on at the time of WJOJ, WWNK, WLLT, and WRRM all doing Soft AC at the same time. WJOJ was more gold-based, and WWEZ was very sleepy. WINK had no direction and the ratings sowed it. WIMJ came on in the early 90s and it was identical to WINK which had brightened and gained by W-Lite changing to Classic Hits. At that time, WRRM was still suffering with a boring image and no direction.

Since you've never actually worked in radio, I wouldn't expect you to understand the differences between an AC like Warm 98 and an Adult Hits station like MIX.

Why do I bother replying to you?

Actually consolidation was impossible (at least on this scale) before the Communications Act of 1996 signed by Bill Clinton. That said there are two ways of looking at competition in the marketplace.

Pre consolidation: 10 companies owning a combined total of 25 stations. Of those there are 4 Top 40s, 3 Rocks, 4 AC's, 3 Countries, and a few other non-major music formats.

Post consolidation: 4 companies owning total of 25 stations. Now only 1 Top 40, 2 AC's, 2 Countries, and various other new formats but for the most part, 1 station per musical genre/format.

There are two arguments:

Argument 1: Pre consolidation had more competition as one station did not control the music on a particular genre. Also the ad marketplace was more diverse giving consumers (ad agencies, small businesses) better prices and service.

Argument 2: Post consolidation has more competition as there are now more formats and options to cover more musical genres. Advertisers will receive better value and overall less expense as stations can be packaged together in one buy rather than the advertiser to buy seperate ads on each station.

Both are valid arguments. As far as specific programming goes, its all cyclical. Zany DJs have gone through various stages of popularity and will continue to do so, just as on TV goes through cycles of sit-coms, reality TV, game shows, and dramas.

 

[master_of_muppets]

yet another topic devloted to cincinnati in the past tense.

you all are pathetic. seriously.

 

[microbob]

Harry, I don't disagree with you either. But what people tend to forget is that a lot of these broadcasting companies weren't doing too well. Before consolidation, WKRC was losing money. Hoker - which owned the old 94.9 The FOX - had gotten into some bad deals and exited the business. Booth - which owned WINK/WSAI - was also having trouble. Pathfinder - former WCKY/WWEZ - is now in smaller markets where the big boys don't play. Where are the Daltons these days? Where's Taft/Great American/Citicasters? Where is Cecil Heftel? I just don't think consolidation was avoidable. It's a different world with so many more choices today. You can't play the games you did in 1984, just as in 1984 you wouldn't play the games you did in 1964. As you said in one of your previous posts, listeners are past those days now. They aren't wowed by zany DJs on the morning zoo anymore.

Bandit, did you read my follow up post? I said that WWEZ was on at the time of WJOJ, WWNK, WLLT, and WRRM all doing Soft AC at the same time. WJOJ was more gold-based, and WWEZ was very sleepy. WINK had no direction and the ratings sowed it. WIMJ came on in the early 90s and it was identical to WINK which had brightened and gained by W-Lite changing to Classic Hits. At that time, WRRM was still suffering with a boring image and no direction.

Since you've never actually worked in radio, I wouldn't expect you to understand the differences between an AC like Warm 98 and an Adult Hits station like MIX.

Argument 2: Post consolidation has more competition as there are now more formats and options to cover more musical genres. Advertisers will receive better value and overall less expense as stations can be packaged together in one buy rather than the advertiser to buy seperate ads on each station.

Both are valid arguments. As far as specific programming goes, its all cyclical. Zany DJs have gone through various stages of popularity and will continue to do so, just as on TV goes through cycles of sit-coms, reality TV, game shows, and dramas.

The days of the Zany DJ morning show are over as the PC police are out in full force. Talk programming will continue to be watered down for the foreseeable future.

I don't buy the argument that consolidation has led to more music formats, at least it hasn't here in this market. Oldies are now on a weak AM signal and there are no Movin, Smooth Jazz or JACK FMs in town.

 

[titoisradio]

yet another topic devloted to cincinnati in the past tense.

you all are pathetic. seriously.

Start a topic about Cincinnati radio, there's lots of topics to choose from Tim & Jeff, Jeff & Jen, sports talk, etc.

 

[master_of_muppets]

indeed there are. but i am a transplant having lived here for all of 4 years, and i have yet to hear anyone besides other transplants talk about cincinnati in the PRESENT tense! that speaks volumes about a city to those who did not grow up around here.

 

[Arbitorn]

There may be a lot of dredging up of the past on this thread, but it's the most interesting I've read in a long time. How are you going to learn from past mistakes without discussing what made them the wrong thing to do?

One post mentioned an inconsequential low power AM oldies station a few breaths away from another lamenting the lack of high energy jocks with jingles and banter. For my money, WDJO is what the rear-view-mirror-lookers are missing. It's anything but plastic, centrally programmed, voice tracked, homogenized radio. They're having a good time and playing the hits with enough spice in the fringes to make it interesting and unpredictable while still entertaining for their target. If you put that formula into any other music genre, you'd have a standout station.

Randy had some new ideas that were bastardized by the bean counters. One, for example, was voice tracking. His vision was to have major (or at least large) market DJ's do the tracking in much smaller markets for a few extra dollars a year (like $5 or $6k), basically record hop money. After his rude interuption, the CC Brass decided to have small market talent do it as a part of their job for nothing extra and they got what they paid for...crap.

Don't blame Randy for misapplication of innovation.

I'd like to say again that I enjoyed this posting more than any I've read in about a year. Except for a lone masked man who wil otherwise remain nameless, it's been constructive and above sniping. Thanks for a rare mature moment among radio types - not that I want it to become habit.

 

[Elephant]

Muppet, meanwhile on your hometown board they're talking about the HISTORY of WLS and WGN. Please spare us the lecture about how backward we are. It's very condescending. This thread has evolved into a thread about TODAY.

So microbob, you're arguing that beacuse we don't have the same formats as other markets (JACK & MOVIN) that we're not seeing more formats? I don't get that logic. The argument was about how consolidated generic formats were a problem then you lament the lack of two generic consolidated formats? And why do we worry about Oldies? That format isn't selling in any market. Why is that so difficult to understand? Don't blame radio, blame the advertisers.

Let's do this again:

CINCINNATI RADIO 1984/2007

92.5 WWEZ Beautiful Music/WOFX Classic Rock
94.1 WKXF Country/WVMX Adult Hits
94.9 WLLT AC/Lite Rock/WSWD Alternative (Improved signal)
96.5 WSKS AOR/WFTK FM Talk
97.3 *NA*/WYGY Country
98.5 WRRM AC/Soft Rock
100.3 *NA*/WMOJ Urban AC
100.9 WHKK Religious/101.1 WIZF Urban
101.9 WKRQ Top 40/WKRQ Adult CHR
102.7 WEBN AOR/WEBN Rock
103.5 WBLZ Urban/WGRR Classic Hits (Improved signal)
105.1 WUBE Country/WUBE Country
107.1 WLYK (AC/Oldies Milford signal)/WKFS Top 40 (Full market signal)

In 1984 we had

1 Beautiful Music
2 Country
3 ACs
2 AOR
1 Top 40
1 Urban
1 religious (if you want to count 100.9 at that time)


In 2007 we have two NEW signals and three that are IMPROVED

1 Classic Rock
1 Adult Hits
1 Alternative
1 AC
2 Country
1 Urban AC
1 Urban
1 Adult CHR
1 Rock
1 Classic Hits
1 Top 40

 

[titoisradio]

There may be a lot of dredging up of the past on this thread, but it's the most interesting I've read in a long time. How are you going to learn from past mistakes without discussing what made them the wrong thing to do?

One post mentioned an inconsequential low power AM oldies station a few breaths away from another lamenting the lack of high energy jocks with jingles and banter. For my money, WDJO is what the rear-view-mirror-lookers are missing. It's anything but plastic, centrally programmed, voice tracked, homogenized radio. They're having a good time and playing the hits with enough spice in the fringes to make it interesting and unpredictable while still entertaining for their target. If you put that formula into any other music genre, you'd have a standout station.

Randy had some new ideas that were bastardized by the bean counters. One, for example, was voice tracking. His vision was to have major (or at least large) market DJ's do the tracking in much smaller markets for a few extra dollars a year (like $5 or $6k), basically record hop money. After his rude interuption, the CC Brass decided to have small market talent do it as a part of their job for nothing extra and they got what they paid for...crap.

Don't blame Randy for misapplication of innovation.

I'd like to say again that I enjoyed this posting more than any I've read in about a year. Except for a lone masked man who wil otherwise remain nameless, it's been constructive and above sniping. Thanks for a rare mature moment among radio types - not that I want it to become habit.

I was one of the most vocal critics of voice tracking back in 1997, though from my perspective you could see why. I was a soon to be college graduate with a dream of being on air. That dream was achieved though be it short lived. Later in life I saw the other side of voice tracking from friends who worked for CC and were able to make more money by tracking to using voice tracking for my now defunct internet radio station (between wedding and CRB/RIAA just couldn't keep it up). Should I ever live my ultimate dream of owning a small rural stick I will probably again utilize voice tracking to serve that community with larger market talent. So honestly it was a great innovation that has been over-used at different points in time.

 

[Dirty_Harry]

One post mentioned an inconsequential low power AM oldies station a few breaths away from another lamenting the lack of high energy jocks with jingles and banter.

I think you misunderstood me in my use of the term "high energy" ... Yes, I do love fast-talking, high-energy jocks, but I was referring more to the music selection. I'm thinking back to the Q-102 of the early 80's or the Power Pig (Tampa), Hot 101 (Youngstown) or Z-95 (Chicago) of the late 80's. I think what made these stations work was that they all had a beat, but without being rhythmic, urban, or playing so much whiny rock (as most CHR stations in these podunk-ville cities lean towards). That's what I consider high-energy ... I remember the stations being dance-ish, with a lot of upbeat rock and pop thrown in. To a slightly lesser extent, that's also what made 92-X (Columbus) and Z-93 (Dayton) so listenable back during the same era, although they probably leaned more rock/pop at that point in time than the other stations I mentioned.

Now what do you get? 4 or 5 songs in a row with whiny crap hipster songs from Sheryl "One Square of Toilet Paper" Crow or Green Day, followed by some super-annoying black song and then 4 or 5 more whiny crap songs. I know the research says that's what the people in some midwestern, podunk, hilljack, shyt-hole of a city want to hear, but if that was really the case then please explain the HUGE success of the stations I mentioned back during their heyday.

I lament the loss of fun-sounding CHR stations in favor of the whiny, overproduced stations Clear Channel puts out! That's really why I hate Clear Channel ........ they've bought up all of the stations within my favorite genre and they really crapped them up (the exception being Wild 93.9 ...... last time I listened, I thought they sounded better than CC's larger-market stations)!

I've tried on several occasions to listen to WDJO up here and I must say I like what they're doing. I truly believe if you put a station together and it appeals to the music-lovers of that genre and the hobbyists, then the others who aren't necessarily as passionate will come along sooner or later. Also a big fan of Cool Bobby B .... loved his show when he was briefly on WCOL. Good luck!

 

[Elephant]

Harry, it could also be that the music nowadays isn't as good or as fun as it was then.

Putting all of our personal tastes aside, research can be a fantastic tool if used correctly. KISS seems to stay pretty highly rated doing what they're doing. Their teen and youn adult numbers are massive. I have no idea what they do there because I don't listen, but they are consistently winning the young demos.

I'll explain the giant success of those station again with the word I used when I forst posted on this thread: CHOICES! Many many more now than 23 years ago. No one station is going to dominate the way they did back then. Look at the Fall book. WLW was number one with nearly a 10 share, then the difference between #2 (WRRM) and #12 (WVMX) was only a 1.9 share! That's pretty tight and it shows how segmented the formats are now.

 

[microbob]

So microbob, you're arguing that beacuse we don't have the same formats as other markets (JACK & MOVIN) that we're not seeing more formats? I don't get that logic. The argument was about how consolidated generic formats were a problem then you lament the lack of two generic consolidated formats? And why do we worry about Oldies? That format isn't selling in any market. Why is that so difficult to understand? Don't blame radio, blame the advertisers.

Let's do this again:

CINCINNATI RADIO 1984/2007

92.5 WWEZ Beautiful Music/WOFX Classic Rock
94.1 WKXF Country/WVMX Adult Hits
94.9 WLLT AC/Lite Rock/WSWD Alternative (Improved signal)
96.5 WSKS AOR/WFTK FM Talk
97.3 *NA*/WYGY Country
98.5 WRRM AC/Soft Rock
100.3 *NA*/WMOJ Urban AC
100.9 WHKK Religious/101.1 WIZF Urban
101.9 WKRQ Top 40/WKRQ Adult CHR
102.7 WEBN AOR/WEBN Rock
103.5 WBLZ Urban/WGRR Classic Hits (Improved signal)
105.1 WUBE Country/WUBE Country
107.1 WLYK (AC/Oldies Milford signal)/WKFS Top 40 (Full market signal)

In 1984 we had

1 Beautiful Music
2 Country
3 ACs
2 AOR
1 Top 40
1 Urban
1 religious (if you want to count 100.9 at that time)


In 2007 we have two NEW signals and three that are IMPROVED

1 Classic Rock
1 Adult Hits
1 Alternative
1 AC
2 Country
1 Urban AC
1 Urban
1 Adult CHR
1 Rock
1 Classic Hits
1 Top 40

True elephant there are more signals on the air in 2007 then in 1984 however, the stations that you listed did not have huge commercial loads like today. You had 12 in a row music sweeps on Q102 in 1984. Try listening to Q102 700 WLW or any station in the market and your overwhelmed with 12-18 minutes of commercials an hour. Less signals ment more in terms of the on-air presentation of those stations and they were local.


Consolidation has done nothing to improve the overall product the average station CC Bonneville, Cumulus puts on the air today as these stations will not compete with one another. Today, it's all about Clusters of stations each company has in each market. In 1984 you had radio wars between Q102 going after WEBN. WBLZ, was a solid CHR/Urban which at the time was also fighting Q102. You had 3 AC's each of which had their own distinct sound with WARM 98 being a Melow AC, WWNK was leaning Hot AC at the time with MAJIC 92.5 being a cross between WINK and WARM.

Radio today is boring and predictable.. Thanks to consolidation.

 

[Elephant]

Bob, 12 minutes an hour of spots is actually a light spot load. In the old days I remember we always did 4 minutes stopsets at :20, :35, and :50. That didn't include the promos. Remember Quarter Hour Maintenance?

Have you forgotten the Q102-KISS war from a few years ago? That was reminiscent of the 80s. It was the same people on different teams!

Look, we're not going to agree on this. I maintain there is much more format diversity and choice now than in 1984. If by laying out each station then and now you can't just look and see that, then I can't say anything else.

If you don't think these stations are competing with one another, then you must not be "in the building." It's competitive and fierce. It just doesn't go out on the air. Why should it? Do listeners really care to hear one station tear down the other? I don't think so.

 

[onegreatplace]

Randy meant less bodies, less random thinking people, less creative energy, less freethinking, less station individuality, less freedom, less money, less people wanting to get into the business, and the downward spiral continues. Just ask almost anyone at clear channel left in his wide wake.

 

[Dirty_Harry]

Randy meant less bodies, less random thinking people, less creative energy, less freethinking, less station individuality, less freedom, less money, less people wanting to get into the business, and the downward spiral continues. Just ask almost anyone at clear channel left in his wide wake.

Are you sure that isn't the fault of the Mays'? Sounds more like their MO to me.

 

[ryan rafferdy]

There was a point in the late 90's when Mix really tried going head to head with Q102. I was the program coordinator at Mix at the time, and we hired Mark Sebastian and Race Taylor for voicetracking.

 

[onegreatplace]

Say what you will about Q102. Great radio, bad radio, they have been attacked from more sides than the Iraqi's on "shock and awe" opening day and they have come out a survivor. It's my understanding they are a pretty successful survivor.