A daytimer down here like like Bob Bittner's WJTO 730 Bath ME and WJIB 740 Cambridge MA could get away probably with doing the listener-supported bit. I think it would be a big stretch to try and run 1540 or 860 that way due to high power costs. Perhaps something like WFYL 1180 would be better. I'd listen to former WPEN'er Andy Kortman before Langer changed from brokered to talk variants.
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THE SINGERS AND STANDARDS FORMAT SHOULD BE ON WIP AM 610
- Thread starter towernews
- Start date
DG02816 said:
Too bad that LAGuy, who, I believe, manages WFYL for Alex Langer, hasn't chimed in here.
Interesting discussion. In a time when money is tight, WRDV-FM raised more money this year than last year. Many of the listeners are beyond the desired age demographic of commercial radio. RDV will install a new antenna (since they were approved for a power increase) and new transmitter which is not cheap from donations from those that the commercial stations are not interested in. Being a non-commercial station with an all volunteer staff, it is possible to broadcast the music that is not being heard on commercial radio. Beautiful Music which I do on Friday nights can be done and is only done on RDV-FM in this area, because there is no profit motovation and as long as there are listeners out there to support us, we can continue to operate.
And yes, I am in the age group that advertisers aren't interested in. And if I was tied down to products that were around when I was growing up, I would be in bad shape, since many of them no longer exist. And as stated in the overall discussion, there is very little that I listen to on commercial radio, because they are not broadcasting music that interest me. I do pay for XM because they do.
And yes, I am in the age group that advertisers aren't interested in. And if I was tied down to products that were around when I was growing up, I would be in bad shape, since many of them no longer exist. And as stated in the overall discussion, there is very little that I listen to on commercial radio, because they are not broadcasting music that interest me. I do pay for XM because they do.
I wonder what Charlie Mills thinks about this? Would be interested in his thoughts............
towernews said:
musicbox said:
My man, EVERYTHING you just said went right over their head. There is ONLY one mindset here, and it is that mindset that is destroying this business. On the one hand they are saying that it can't be done, but one the other hand, there are examples that prove it can be and is being done.They are too blinded to realize that their greedy mindset is cutting their own throats and killing the business that we all grew up with and loved.As I said, they are too damn blind too to see how their own actions are counter productive, and causing listeners to drop off. Useless and sad.
I
imhomerjay
Guest
Sure, that's what's "killing" it. Not the world of new technologies not even imagined by most people back in whatever musty old "golden era" one picks. Not the vast majority of people moving on to more recent styles of music, just as they have for eons. No, can't be anything like that. 
Hey, let's run every business on the handout model. Because clearly if a handful of little stations can exist using that approach, it'll be a much better revenue generating approach for companies looking to make money on their investments.
Hey, let's run every business on the handout model. Because clearly if a handful of little stations can exist using that approach, it'll be a much better revenue generating approach for companies looking to make money on their investments.
Thanks for letting me know you dropped my name on here Mr. Longstreet! I don't get here much anymore because frankly, radio in it's present form doesn't really deserve my time or effort. I find it a total bore. However, since you asked:
I think a standards station today would be a total failure. Now, with that said, let me qualify a few points.
At WPEN, when it was "The Station of the Stars," the timing was impeccable for a format like that to thrive and survive. In 1979, WIP-AM was screwing around with their MOR format as you may recall. In September 1979 WPEN took advantage of that and we changed to the standards format and "grew" our audience from WIP's displaced, fed-up listeners. We built a loyalty factor among the listenership that was unbreakable. Also, WPEN had the advantage at the time of a remarkable General Manager, Larry Wexler - and major financial support from the ownership of Greater Media to build the station into a success. Julian Breen was instrumental in the early days of WPEN, by guiding the format that he personally created. Julian was a genius, and frankly, he was told by many people that his idea of playing big bands and standards was CRAZY...INSANE. But look what happened! For more than two decades, WPEN was a MAJOR FORCE in Philadelphia radio, winning hundreds of awards, Marconi awards, and becoming the "model station" for standards across the country. I talked to many program directors through the years, asking me what our secret to success was. It was being "LOCAL." It was paying the price for high-profile major talent like Joe Niagara, Ken Garland, Bill Webber, Ed Hurst, Tom Moran, Andy Hopkins, Bill Kimble, John Carlton - and the list goes on. Our sales department could not sell the agencies because the snot-nosed 22 year old movers and shakers did not have a clue who Frank Sinatra was, or Glenn Miller. But we sold "LOCAL" and we sold the personalities. The programming efforts were bolstered by people like Dean Tyler, Ed Klein, me, and a support staff that was simply unmatched by any other Philly radio station. Promotions people like Mark Lipsky and Ann Letizi. An engineering staff led by Larry Paulausky, who made music on AM sound like FM. And a sales department that knew how to sell the personalities. There were so many other people who made it click. But today, in this environment, you would NEVER have the financial support needed to create another "Station of the Stars." In fact, where would you even find the quality talent to do the format? Also, when you look at this type of format, you are basically talking 55-plus, with some lop over from 45-54. Where are those listeners right now? Chances are, they are with WOGL-FM because a 55 year old person today grew up with the music WOGL plays now......not with Glenn Miller, Keely Smith, Rosemary Clooney, Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Doris Day and so on. So, my best guess is, if a station tried this format, and it had a decent signal, unlike the WHAT-AM experiment, it might get a 3 share at most, and that is a very positive prediction......but would it be sellable? Nope. Remember too, there are many other factors creating listener fragmentation today that were not present in 1979 when WPEN started the format - like all the various cyber technologies that offer music without commercials and so on. Hey, I'd love to be involved in the programming of a station just like WPEN again. But lets see how many offers I get!! lol. And by the way, I see a very dismal future for the business in general in the next few years.
Hope this was interesting reading Mr. Longstreet!
Happy New Year!
Charlie Mills
I think a standards station today would be a total failure. Now, with that said, let me qualify a few points.
At WPEN, when it was "The Station of the Stars," the timing was impeccable for a format like that to thrive and survive. In 1979, WIP-AM was screwing around with their MOR format as you may recall. In September 1979 WPEN took advantage of that and we changed to the standards format and "grew" our audience from WIP's displaced, fed-up listeners. We built a loyalty factor among the listenership that was unbreakable. Also, WPEN had the advantage at the time of a remarkable General Manager, Larry Wexler - and major financial support from the ownership of Greater Media to build the station into a success. Julian Breen was instrumental in the early days of WPEN, by guiding the format that he personally created. Julian was a genius, and frankly, he was told by many people that his idea of playing big bands and standards was CRAZY...INSANE. But look what happened! For more than two decades, WPEN was a MAJOR FORCE in Philadelphia radio, winning hundreds of awards, Marconi awards, and becoming the "model station" for standards across the country. I talked to many program directors through the years, asking me what our secret to success was. It was being "LOCAL." It was paying the price for high-profile major talent like Joe Niagara, Ken Garland, Bill Webber, Ed Hurst, Tom Moran, Andy Hopkins, Bill Kimble, John Carlton - and the list goes on. Our sales department could not sell the agencies because the snot-nosed 22 year old movers and shakers did not have a clue who Frank Sinatra was, or Glenn Miller. But we sold "LOCAL" and we sold the personalities. The programming efforts were bolstered by people like Dean Tyler, Ed Klein, me, and a support staff that was simply unmatched by any other Philly radio station. Promotions people like Mark Lipsky and Ann Letizi. An engineering staff led by Larry Paulausky, who made music on AM sound like FM. And a sales department that knew how to sell the personalities. There were so many other people who made it click. But today, in this environment, you would NEVER have the financial support needed to create another "Station of the Stars." In fact, where would you even find the quality talent to do the format? Also, when you look at this type of format, you are basically talking 55-plus, with some lop over from 45-54. Where are those listeners right now? Chances are, they are with WOGL-FM because a 55 year old person today grew up with the music WOGL plays now......not with Glenn Miller, Keely Smith, Rosemary Clooney, Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Doris Day and so on. So, my best guess is, if a station tried this format, and it had a decent signal, unlike the WHAT-AM experiment, it might get a 3 share at most, and that is a very positive prediction......but would it be sellable? Nope. Remember too, there are many other factors creating listener fragmentation today that were not present in 1979 when WPEN started the format - like all the various cyber technologies that offer music without commercials and so on. Hey, I'd love to be involved in the programming of a station just like WPEN again. But lets see how many offers I get!! lol. And by the way, I see a very dismal future for the business in general in the next few years.
Hope this was interesting reading Mr. Longstreet!
Happy New Year!
Charlie Mills
imhomerjay said:Sure, that's what's "killing" it. Not the world of new technologies not even imagined by most people back in whatever musty old "golden era" one picks. Not the vast majority of people moving on to more recent styles of music, just as they have for eons. No, can't be anything like that.
Hey, let's run every business on the handout model. Because clearly if a handful of little stations can exist using that approach, it'll be a much better revenue generating approach for companies looking to make money on their investments.
As I said before, good music never dies, it is handed off and listened to by the next generation. You may not want them to listen to it, because if they do, then where is the payola going to come from? now if they play the new low quality, low expection crap that is being recorded today and pushed by the corporate lables...here comes the rep to grease some palms lol lol. So I can see why you and the recording & radio industry want people to deny what they love and allow their tastes to be moled and become bandwaggon hoppers, to follow the pack.
And as far as "handouts", please, don't exaggerate. If you want to talk about handouts then focus on Wallstreet.What we see right now in the radio Industry is a Microcosm of the macrocosm. On A bigger scale, A Corporation is not satified with a profit, they want the biggest profit possible. So what do they do? Reduce overhead, cut back on the quality, layoff, outsource not caring about the product being produced, which is of low quality, all for the goal of quick profits for their investors. Yeah, sound business model, we see how well that's working today lol. But, please don't just focus of the stations that operate on donations, how bout focussing on the stations that don't, but are still making a decent return.
Let's face it, radio personalities cost money, which they don't want to spend, that's why station owners want them to talk less and play more music, because God for bid they become popular, it'll cost more money to keep them. And when I mentioned "outsourcing", I was talking about syndicated programs, free programs, they don't to pay for talent.What kills me is some people on this board criticize the people who criticize how radio operates today, they are attacked, as if they have a better model to point to!!!! if they did, then you wouldn't have listeners turning to the Internet, Podcasts, Satellite and Indepenent stations for the music they want to hear. So, untill you have a better example to point to, to show that the control of corporate radio by the corporate lables and their investors is working, and their listenership is picking up,please, then your position is going down like the Titanic.
I
imhomerjay
Guest
They do have a better model to point to--the one that makes money.
As if we're to believe that people wouldn't be migrating to new technologies if only there were more people spending more time yammering on the air. Yes, that would make iPods, satellite and the web obsolete. People didn't stop riding in buggies because the buggy makers didn't do a good enough job fixing up their products; people didn't switch to dramas/comedies/soaps/games on TV because the radio versions weren't pouring enough money into the productions.
Just pay a bunch of people with imaginary money, and suddenly you can reverse the inevitable course of change. Is that the "better model?" It's pretty much a model for bankruptcy.
As if we're to believe that people wouldn't be migrating to new technologies if only there were more people spending more time yammering on the air. Yes, that would make iPods, satellite and the web obsolete. People didn't stop riding in buggies because the buggy makers didn't do a good enough job fixing up their products; people didn't switch to dramas/comedies/soaps/games on TV because the radio versions weren't pouring enough money into the productions.
Just pay a bunch of people with imaginary money, and suddenly you can reverse the inevitable course of change. Is that the "better model?" It's pretty much a model for bankruptcy.
imhomerjay said:They do have a better model to point to--the one that makes money.
As if we're to believe that people wouldn't be migrating to new technologies if only there were more people spending more time yammering on the air. Yes, that would make iPods, satellite and the web obsolete. People didn't stop riding in buggies because the buggy makers didn't do a good enough job fixing up their products; people didn't switch to dramas/comedies/soaps/games on TV because the radio versions weren't pouring enough money into the productions.
Just pay a bunch of people with imaginary money, and suddenly you can reverse the inevitable course of change. Is that the "better model?" It's pretty much a model for bankruptcy.
I refer back to my original statement:If a person eats only swill, then the only judgement he/she can make is what kind of swill he/she likes. If a person only hears the music that's played on the radio, the same music that is being pushed and heard on every other station, he/she is only exposed to that small portion of a much greater musical spectrum, and can only make judgements based on that small universe of music he/she hears. Point being...just because it sells doesn't mean it's good....if that's all people are hearing, are being fed. But as long as you're making money what do you care. That's our society, no ethics, principles or standards.
I
imhomerjay
Guest
One could also note that just because you happen not to like it doesn't make it "not good." "Good" or "bad" in artistic pursuits is about as subjective as it gets, and your personal tastes neither validate nor diminish those who share or don't share your personal definition of "good."
imhomerjay said:
Very well said.
Plus, was radio all that much different years ago? You still had a corrupted music industry run by recording and radio executives who used "pay offs" to push product. It's no different today. You just don't particularly like what they're pushing these days.
Finally, as was stated earlier, most advertisers do not have interest in reaching 55+ demographics. How do you expect that to work financially??
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imhomerjay
Guest
Magic flying unicorns sprinking money from their rainbows?
"Finally, as was stated earlier, most advertisers do not have interest in reaching 55+ demographics. How do you expect that to work financially??"
You need to change the mindset that seniors are locked into the products of yesteryear. The fact that I am typing this on a computer and don't use a typewriter or a mimeograph machine or no longer drive a Studebaker Lark indicates something that the advertising agencies are missing. I also subscribe to XM radio Or is it just laziiness on their part to sell to a familiar audience.. Of course the amount of commercials in an hour would make it hard for me to go back. KYW brags "give us 22 minutes and we'll give you the world" which translates to 16 minutes of commercials in an hour.
You need to change the mindset that seniors are locked into the products of yesteryear. The fact that I am typing this on a computer and don't use a typewriter or a mimeograph machine or no longer drive a Studebaker Lark indicates something that the advertising agencies are missing. I also subscribe to XM radio Or is it just laziiness on their part to sell to a familiar audience.. Of course the amount of commercials in an hour would make it hard for me to go back. KYW brags "give us 22 minutes and we'll give you the world" which translates to 16 minutes of commercials in an hour.
musicbox said:
BULLSEYE!!!!! LOL
I
imhomerjay
Guest
musicbox said:
Blood from a stone and all that. A radio station isn't going to "change the mindset" of national buyers looking at data based on actual research, not anecdotes from a message board. Even if we make the assumption that entrenched patterns will change as he boomer generation continues to age, it isn't going to be a radio station or two that changes it, it will be the proof from research--something measurable that can be used to support the advertising buys they make to their bosses and clients.
GREAT INPUT! I still would classify WDUV as more a standards format of all time beginning with the sixties. They play Streisand, Sedaka,.. instrumentals like LOVE IS BLUE and much more.
This is definitely not a standard AC station such as B101, philly.
I also appreciate the banter between doowop and others. Being a radio station owner, I can honestly say from first hand experience that one should never program a station based on one person's particular preferences... Actually did that and it was a complete flop!
One can pick a format but one should not pick the specific songs appropriate for that format. There's tons of research available as to what are the songs most preferred by listeners. The key is, every song needs to be a winner. If you're the only radio station in the market then you can do anything.. you have a captive audience but the truth is there are very, very few areas that have just one station. The bottom line is, "Don't give listeners a reason to turn the dial."
The more competition in your market (especially when you're not the only one playing that format), the more often you need to tweak the playlist. DJ talk shouldn't exceed one minute and must be to the point. This is not me talking but what research has found.
This is definitely not a standard AC station such as B101, philly.
I also appreciate the banter between doowop and others. Being a radio station owner, I can honestly say from first hand experience that one should never program a station based on one person's particular preferences... Actually did that and it was a complete flop!
One can pick a format but one should not pick the specific songs appropriate for that format. There's tons of research available as to what are the songs most preferred by listeners. The key is, every song needs to be a winner. If you're the only radio station in the market then you can do anything.. you have a captive audience but the truth is there are very, very few areas that have just one station. The bottom line is, "Don't give listeners a reason to turn the dial."
The more competition in your market (especially when you're not the only one playing that format), the more often you need to tweak the playlist. DJ talk shouldn't exceed one minute and must be to the point. This is not me talking but what research has found.
But there aren't any typewriter or mimeograph machine companies in existence today, and there's certainly no more Studebaker dealers. All that example really says about you is you don't stick to dead brands or dying technology, perhaps out of long-term work/family necessity.musicbox said:
Let me imagine you're surfing the web using a Dell Inspriron laptop or an Apple iPad 2
over Sprint, all from the reclined front-seat comfort of your Toyota Camry (or Chevy Tahoe): I can reach you with the appropriate brand or promotion awareness so much better than one old-skewing radio format. Even services like Jitterbug or Consumer Cellular have limited appeal, because we're about to see 50+ consumers already spoiled by use of Blackberry and iPhone devices.
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