They are getting desperate now !

[PocketRadio]

"HD Radio Receiver $59.95 After Rebate"

http://tinyurl.com/yw4wrc

"Are you waiting in line for your HD radio?"

"If you lower the price enough, folks will buy the radio. That's the belief about HD radio that is being stoked in our industry. And, of course, it's wrong. The more you have to drop your price, the lower the chance people value what you're selling. And the less likely you are to sell your wares at any price the maker of those wares finds appealing."

http://www.hear2.com/2006/11/are_you_waiting.html

Radiosophy and iBiquity are getting so desperate that there is the initial $25 rebate on the HD100, plus an across-the-board $40 rebate on HD radios. If a zillion of these clunkers were being sold, then rebates would be unnecessary. Consumers waited in line for three days to pay full price ($600) for new PS3s. Of course, there is no mention by Radiosophy of having to purchase AM-loop and FM-dipole antennas to hook up to their external connectors. The Average Joe will get this baby home, get lousy reception and repetitive, bland HD channel programming, then return it promptly ! Thanks, but no thanks - I'll stick to my trusty $10 pocket-radio, which doesn't require external antennas, and can DX nighttime AM stations up to 1000 miles. If I want a variety of music on FM, all I have to do is change stations - no extra HD channels required. Come on Moms, Dads, and Grads buy that clunky HD radio, as a graduation gift ! Now, let-me-have-it !

 

[clouseau]

"HD Radio Receiver $59.95 After Rebate"

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070501006606&newsLang=en

Cool. Maybe we're beginning to see the next price point.

Anyone see this unit at the show?

Clouseau

 

[PocketRadio]

"HD Radio Receiver $59.95 After Rebate"

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070501006606&newsLang=en

Cool. Maybe we're beginning to see the next price point.

Anyone see this unit at the show?

Clouseau

With iBiquity's licensing fees for HD chipsets running from $40 to half the cost of HD radios, undoubtedly, this radio is being sold at below cost - WOW !

 

[clouseau]

...undoubtedly, this radio is being sold at below cost - WOW !

I don't know about that, but WOW is right. It's a great deal compared to previous HD radios.

Clouseau

 

[PocketRadio]

...undoubtedly, this radio is being sold at below cost - WOW !

I don't know about that, but WOW is right. It's a great deal compared to previous HD radios.

Clouseau

"HD Radio"

"As with AM, FM stations transmit using a separate exciter to modulate the very different signals. A combiner is often used, either before common amplification or after separate amplification, though stations are also now allowed to use a separate radio antenna slightly higher or lower on the radio tower. The ratio of power from the analog to digital signal is 100:1. This means that the digital signal only has 1/100th of the power of the analog."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Radio

Because the digital saddlebags are only broadcast at 1/100th the power of the main analog channel, poor reception is always going to haunt in-dash, portable, and table-top HD radios - this will be HD Radio's Archilles Heel, so price-point of HD radios will be a moot-point.

 

[Tom Wells]

Wasn't the Radiosophy one of the three in the recent U-tube video, where all 3 HD radios sounded awful compared to the 1941 Zenith?
I seem to recall it was the poorest sensitivity of three on analog AM. Correct me if am remembering wrongly...

I don't think I have ever chimed in on any of these "how the game is going" threads.

Everything I ever thought was going to happen so far in radio has happened, which is why as badly as would have loved to gone into the biz,
and had ample opportunity, I had the sense to stay out.
My wise instructors in radio engineering school advised us to find employment elsewhere, as the FCC's decision to eliminate the
First Class license was sure to make hard times for those already employed, let alone newcomers.

I would not be happy as an engineer in the position of implementing IBOC. In fact, I would probably behave exactly as
some other people do here anonymously, with tireless reporting of items from far afield.
I would become the de-vangelist (proclaiming the bad news), just as Supercaster and PocketRadio.
Instead, I just try to point out engineering issues.

Now, as to how I see this game playing out, I see this taking exactly the same trajectory as AM stereo, which
was, for all intents and purposes, A SECRET to the greater public.
There was no advertising, and even though few knew, it did not change the mono in any way.

This system provides a geniuine detriment to existing listeners on AM, so is not "neutral" but "invasive".
I have discussed this with several baseball listeners who notice the bad sounding AM.
And some others who like talk radio.
They just don't know what is wrong. And when I query, 2 out of 10 have heard HD ads, but it is making NO impression on them.
When I explain it to them, even favorably, they look as though they just received forehead botox.
It is way off the map in radio geek-land.
This is the biggest gee-whiz super-duper development of RTTY technology application ever, and you expect
this to be regarded with awe by a public with an attention span of .75 seconds and 200 channels to scroll through?


I won't say it will fail, but I do think it will be as disregarded as much as AM stereo was.

The drop to the 60 dollar range, rebate or not, seems like it must be below cost, and if they don't sell at this price,
we either must conclude that radio advertising is not working to sell radios, or maybe not stressing NEW RADIO enough.
Or maybe they just don't care, like with AM stereo.

For every 2 listeners who are "more involved", there are 8 who don't pay much attention at all, and take radio for granted.

Are there any HD radio ads on TV? I don't watch TV.

 

[clouseau]

Wasn't the Radiosophy one of the three in the recent U-tube video, where all 3 HD radios sounded awful compared to the 1941 Zenith?
I seem to recall it was the poorest sensitivity of three on analog AM. Correct me if am remembering wrongly...

I think this is a different radio. I have not heard either so I can't say if it's better or worse than the one in the You Tube thing.

I won't say it will fail, but I do think it will be as disregarded as much as AM stereo was.

This is one of the most reasonable predictions of the possible future I have seen on the negative side. Well said, IMHO. There is no reason for HD to "Fail".

I don't believe AM Stereo "FAILED". I think it fizzled due to neglect and indifference and was replaced, more or less, by HD. Keep in mind there are still some AM Stereo stations out there today...

The drop to the 60 dollar range, rebate or not, seems like it must be below cost,

Don't fall too much into the hype about loss leader. This radio as reported by the orignal poster sells for $99.00 on sale from Full Price $119.99. I would assume there is a built in margin of at least $20.00 and therefore the radio can be sld for a prifit at #99.99. If we believer the license fee claim of either $40 or half of the radio's cost to Ibiquity, when they issue a $40 rebate, THEY still generate revenue. While I'm sureit's a thinner margin then they might like, By the original numbers, there is money being made.

and if they don't sell at this price,
we either must conclude that radio advertising is not working to sell radios, or maybe not stressing NEW RADIO enough.
Or maybe they just don't care, like with AM stereo.

Could be. Or maybe $60.00 is still too high.

For every 2 listeners who are "more involved", there are 8 who don't pay much attention at all, and take radio for granted.

Yep.

Are there any HD radio ads on TV?

Not that I have seen and I wouldn't hold my breath. Look for them when the chase for listeners on HD-2 and HD-3 picks up. (If that happens.)

Clouseau

 

[Chuck]

"HD Radio Receiver $59.95 After Rebate"

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070501006606&newsLang=en

Cool. Maybe we're beginning to see the next price point.

Anyone see this unit at the show?

Clouseau

Yes. There was one at the Radio-Guide booth. Barry was giving it away as a door prize. It looks like a $59 radio. It has a very “inexpensive” look, regardless of the gee-whiz technology involved. It seemed to work OK, although it produced a very strange stereo image. Because of its small size, I thought that was surprising. It was almost like "enhanced stereo" which uses some strange phasing tricks.

I think $59.95 is close to the "magic price point." If I was walking through my neighborhood Wal-Mart and saw one, I might buy one just for grins. At least, it is a step in the right direction if this is going to succeed. Radios need to be available in a price range where they might become an impulse buy.

 

[Mike Walker]

Far from indicating "failure', the fact that HD can reach this price point so early is freaking awesome! More radios at this price point and even below will GUARANTEE acceptance. This is well within the range of decent analog table radios, and HALF THE PRICE of models from companies like Tivoli. And they now sell Tivoli at Target. THIS is the type of news that indicates HD is moving from "radio geek" territory into the mainstream. This type of precipitous price drop (for players) is what cemented cd's hold as the top playback medium killing cassette, and a decade later dvd's hold killing vhs. This is what ALWAYS happens in consumer electronics when production ramps up, and what YOU PocketRadio (under another name) said wouldn't happen...truly inexpensive, cheap-even, HD radios!

 

[clouseau]

It was almost like "enhanced stereo" which uses some strange phasing tricks.

God I hope not. I really hate that stuff. Mix in a little engineering... We'll see.

I think $59.95 is close to the "magic price point." If I was walking through my neighborhood Wal-Mart and saw one, I might buy one just for grins. At least, it is a step in the right direction if this is going to succeed. Radios need to be available in a price range where they might become an impulse buy.

Agreed. I'd like to see the rebate go away. How about $39.99 out the door?

Clouseau.

 

[PocketRadio]

Far from indicating "failure', the fact that HD can reach this price point so early is freaking awesome! More radios at this price point and even below will GUARANTEE acceptance. This is well within the range of decent analog table radios, and HALF THE PRICE of models from companies like Tivoli. And they now sell Tivoli at Target. THIS is the type of news that indicates HD is moving from "radio geek" territory into the mainstream. This type of precipitous price drop (for players) is what cemented cd's hold as the top playback medium killing cassette, and a decade later dvd's hold killing vhs. This is what ALWAYS happens in consumer electronics when production ramps up, and what YOU PocketRadio (under another name) said wouldn't happen...truly inexpensive, cheap-even, HD radios!

Consumers will wonder, why a new radio is on-sale and also has a rebate - successful technologies do not need to price-gouge, in attempt to generate consumer interest. Consumers do not like to deal with rebates, but this a desperate way for iBiquity to get a head-count on the number of HD radios sold. Besides, a search of the Web indicates that Radiosophy only sells on-line, so let's see, if this has generated any excitement, yet:

http://www.statsaholic.com/radiosophy.com
http://www.statsaholic.com/hdradio.com

This HD radio, as with all HD radios, will only appeal to radio-geeks, but they already have their HD radios.

 

[Chuck]

Agreed. I'd like to see the rebate go away. How about $39.99 out the door?

Clouseau.

I think it would sell pretty well at $39.99. At that price point, the HD feature would be an "added bonus." I suspect that's what it will take to get any big numbers pf HD radios out there. Sure, there are people who will pay a lot more for a better radio. Bose has proven that, but for the "average Joe" that Thebroker is talking about it will have t be very affordable.

 

[thebroker]

If this price point sticks, without anybody having to deal with a rebate, then we are getting there. I hope this isn't iBiquity's way of extorting everybody into buying receivers "before the price goes back up". After all, from my experience, iBiquity has been known to extort, quite frankly. I got a letter from them probably a year and a half ago that said something to the effect of "you'd better purchase your HD Radio license now, because if you don't, you'll pay dearly for it when we jack up the price in a few months!!". Did they actually jack up the price? I don't know, because I didn't care enough to keep up with it. I didn't appreciate the "threat", though. I had the chance to corner somebody from iBiquity at a trade show last year, and that's one of the things I filled his ear with. However, I'm not a member of the black helicopter brigade, and I don't think iBiquity would team up with a radio manufacturer to strongarm the general public.

That said, other than the extortion letter and spending a few minutes with the iBiquity VP, I hadn't really given much thought or serious consideration to HD Radio until a few weeks ago, as I've said already. However, with a reduced price point, even if I hadn't stumbled upon this board, or crunched the numbers myself, I'd pay a little bit more attention just considering such a dramatic price-point drop. After all, I paid an obscene amount of money for my Boston Acoustics Receptor, and I haven't even used it to pick up an HD signal yet.

Will this price point drop change my situation or view concerning turning on IBOC? Absolutely not. Will it shift the dynamic in the larger markets, assuming the price sticks? Maybe. We'll see.

 

[Mike Walker]

Yeah, Ibiquity's tactics ain't exactly subtle. But it's pretty difficult for even PocketRadio to spin an HD Radio, with sync detector and all the dsp doo-dads for 59.95 as "desperate". After all, this isn't something that's been on the shelf for a while that they're trying to move out. It's a brand new product, JUST INTRODUCED at this very low price point. The ones who are "really getting desparate" are those who try to spin this, some of the most positive news yet for HD, as anything other than PROMISING!

 

[PocketRadio]

Yeah, Ibiquity's tactics ain't exactly subtle. But it's pretty difficult for even PocketRadio to spin an HD Radio, with sync detector and all the dsp doo-dads for 59.95 as "desperate". After all, this isn't something that's been on the shelf for a while that they're trying to move out. It's a brand new product, JUST INTRODUCED at this very low price point. The ones who are "really getting desparate" are those who try to spin this, some of the most positive news yet for HD, as anything other than PROMISING!

"Radiosophy HD100"

"Power Supply: 110VAC wall plug. External AM/FM connections allow reception in buildings and distant signal areas."

http://www.radiosophy.com/products/hd100.html

Yup, HD Radio's Achilles Heels ! HD Radio is just for radio-geeks - Joe Blow consumer has no clue about sync detectors, or cares to know ! If HD radios were selling, they wouldn't have to be put on-sale and on-rebate - iBiquity must be temporarily forfeiting its $40 HD chipset licensing fee !

 

[clouseau]

If this price point sticks, without anybody having to deal with a rebate, then we are getting there.

I agree. What will finally get things moving for the HD-2's and the AM's will be actual radios in the field. If Ibiquity can get HD to basically run in the background of a lot of radios then there will be some penetration. With penetration will come listeners and with listeners will come the money. Darn few people went out and BOUGHT an AM stereo radio, but a lot of folks ended up with one in their car. Ditto with their stereo receivers (Although nowhere near as many as in cars.)

I've seen a lot of speculation about licensing fees to Ibiquity. Obviously if the $40 fee I've seen bandied about is true, we're never going to see a $29.00 radio. (Or a $14.00 radio)

Now I have to believe that the Ibiquity folks have already thought of this, so I guess we'll just have to see.

At least we're looking at a regular non rebated price of $119.99 That's $80 off the previous "Regular" low right?

Clouseau

 

[awj223]

"HD Radio"

"As with AM, FM stations transmit using a separate exciter to modulate the very different signals. A combiner is often used, either before common amplification or after separate amplification, though stations are also now allowed to use a separate radio antenna slightly higher or lower on the radio tower. The ratio of power from the analog to digital signal is 100:1. This means that the digital signal only has 1/100th of the power of the analog."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Radio

Because the digital saddlebags are only broadcast at 1/100th the power of the main analog channel, poor reception is always going to haunt in-dash, portable, and table-top HD radios - this will be HD Radio's Archilles Heel, so price-point of HD radios will be a moot-point.

Yes. HD Radio is being sold as an upgrade to "traditional" radio, but suffers from inferior coverage due to the lower power of the digital signal, AND causes interference to analog systems, making hybrid mode inferior to both pure analog and pure digital.

Look, when you advertise something as an upgrade and it turns out to be inferior to the old system, consumers get very unhappy. Yet when I mention pushing a full digital conversion to take full advantage of a digital system, even the HD supporters begin complaining that it will make analog radios obsolete. Well you can't have it both ways! Can we either do this full conversion ASAP or just forget about it?

 

[Mike Walker]

All the points you make about HD are also true about analog FM stereo. Plus two more. It's MUCH noisier and more prone to multipath distortion than mono FM.

A 96db s/n ratio, distortion that's orders of magnitude lower, and 20khz response at ANY modulation level isn't just an "upgrade", it's a revelation! Add multicasting (the real "power app"), and, with a little creativity, plus truly affordable radios (coming as we speak), you have an unstoppable combination.

 

[PocketRadio]

Add multicasting (the real "power app"), and, with a little creativity, plus truly affordable radios (coming as we speak), you have an unstoppable combination.

HD Radio is in a Catch-22 situation - stations will not put the resources into programming the HD channels until there is significant consumer interest, and any chance of generating consumer interest will not happen until there is compelling programming on the HD channels. Of course, the radio dial has more than enough stations to provide diverse programming, so the HD channels are an unnesessary. Now, that HD Radio subscriptions will be a reality in the Fall, this will position HD Radio with Satellite Radio (HD Radio was supposed to be for the masses). Commercials on the HD channels will happen, if/when there is significant uptake of HD radios (good luck). And of course, reception of the low-power HD channels will always plague the sales of HD radios - surely, many HD radios have been returned because of poor reception. There is no "power app" with multicasting - HD Radio is a farce ! Not that it matters, but the price of HD radios will never approach that of $10 - $25 analog radios, since iBiquity's HD chipset licensing fees are atleast $40, which they appear to be waiving now in desperation. Portable DAB radios in the UK are $100 - $300 and they have been out for a number of years. The battery life of these DAB radios average 15 hours, and just as with HD/IBOC, reception is problematic.

 

[Chuck]

The idea of a $59.95 HD radio seems to be a step in the right direction, Earlier today, Clouseau and I agreed that $39.95 would be a magic price point. It may be, but I'm not a enthusiastic now as I was earlier in the day.

Wal-Mart just opened a new Super Center a few minutes from my home. I visited it today and was amazed by how “up scale” this new store actually is. Naturally, I browsed around the electronics department. I didn't see any HD radios, even in the car stereo department, but I can tell you that radios that looked similar to the Radiosophy model currently offered topped out at $29.99. The cheapest was $9.99. The range between $15 and $20 had the most variety, some of which at least looked like decent radios. Since nothing was plugged in, the only indication of quality was looks. You had to go to the compact stereo display to find anything actually working.

If cosmetic appearance is the only way most consumers make purchasing decisions on radios, then there is still a problem at even $39.95. I'm sure none of us would make a radio purchase based entirely on appearance, but evidentially, a lot of people do. Wal-Mart is the world's largest retailer, and like them or not, you have to figure that they know what they are doing.

Just a thought.