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They are getting desperate now !
- Thread starter PocketRadio
- Start date
And you're on this HD Radio board because... ???
Philip J. Smith said:
A discussion board for HD Radio should include "discussion," both positive and negative comments, observations, experiences, problems, opinions, etc. Not only from those who are peddling and promoting problematic HD radios and technology, but others as well.
If someone does not like HD Radio due to interference to analog, or any other issues, they should not be required to buy an HD radio they don't like, want, or will use in order to post their comments here. Nor should they be restricted from posting links to other opinions about the technology, related issues, or comparisons of programming or competing technologies.
My local Radio Shack, in a one story masonry building, has finally (since last Thanksgiving) given up on trying to get any HD signals (AM or FM) inside, even though they are within sight of the broadcasting towers! They are not putting up rooftop AM and FM antennas because they realize their customers in the city won't be bothered with such nonsense, just to get a few extra HD2 signals, that stream automated music like iPods, satillite radio, or internet radio. They do not want to be bothered with returns when their customers can't get HD Radio to work in their homes, and need to bother with running long wires and outdoor antennas.
Contrary to what is often repeated here, you don't need and HD Radio to get programming "surprises". They are available with virtually every new media.
AM and FM (yes, even stereo FM) works fine in the store and their customers are satisfied with that, or other available options from competing technologies.
Why would I buy an HD Radio if Radio Shack can't even get it to work in the store?
In the city, electronics and interference are everywhere, not only inside Radio Shack.
So much for false claims of HD radio "interference immunity."
Why would anyone buy such defective HD technology or an HD radio?
Just to be the first on the block to own an HD Radio, or to DX HD Radio signals (which is problematic in itself because of rebuffering and the totally on or totally off nature of HD digital signals)?
M
Mike Walker
Guest
All your local Radio Shack would need to do is put an antenna OUTSIDE, or at least in a window, away from the computers, flourescent lights, etc. I'll be they don't expect to get satellite radio, or even over-the-air television with an indoor antenna.
You're right, people who don't like HD shouldn't be required to buy one. But people who "review' HD radio, and have never tried one in their home or car, well...the TOS restricts me from saying what I believe them to be full of.
You're right, people who don't like HD shouldn't be required to buy one. But people who "review' HD radio, and have never tried one in their home or car, well...the TOS restricts me from saying what I believe them to be full of.
The Dude said:
Me neither - price-point of HD radios will make no difference. I have seen "buy one get one free" for cell phones and portable Satellite Radio, but that is no incentive to go out and impulse buy. What most posters here seem to be missing is something called, "consumer need".
Mike Walker said:
That is exactly, what our RS did with the Accurian HD - it was next to a window, but was unable to link to any HD channels, and I am in Wash., D.C. - the Accurian kept saying, "linking....". The analog radios had no problem picking up FM stations in RS, even without having to extend the whip antennas.
IMHO, it is not your place to pontificate what should or should not be included here. Nor mine. This is a board about HD radio. How about if we post about HD radio?SUPERCASTER said:
I (and I would suspect others) take PERSONAL OFFENSE to your peddling and promoting characterization. I am not peddling or promoting anything, I am expessing my opinion. Something you claim to wish to promote.
I also find your use of the underlying "defective", " problematic" , "Shill", "Luddites" etc demeaning and IMHO a violation of the TOS. I am asking you to stop and show a little respect for your fellow Human Beings. You are not routinely labeled "backwards", "Jurassic", "Digitally impaired" or "Caveman". Surely it might have crossed your mind that others have something comparable to your wit? Please extend the same courtesy.
This is YOUR OPINION. Again you proclaim it as fact. That is rude. Please stop.
Again, you post YOUR OPINIONS as facts and "maybe" some facts along with it.
Now you claim to speak on behalf of all Radio Shack customers. "Their customers are satisfied with that." You talked to some customers? You have info or data? Some other indication?
The question is... If you've already established that...
why are we having THIS discussion. Clearly they won't. And haven't.
You must read more Ibiquity literature than anyone. Could you source us the "Interference Immunity" quote please.
More of the demeaning "Defective".
I am relatively certain this post will get moved to TIO (Which I guess it should.) And again YOUR actual destructive behavior will disrupt a message thread in a forum about a product you don't own, don't want to own and wish to see fail. Does anyone else think this blatent behavior pattern is a violation of the TOS?
Clouseau
clouseau said:
This behavior skirts the edge of the TOS, but provides real balance in keeping with the continuous promotion we hear from the
"alliance" and ibiquity. They're not letting up with the claims of positivity, neither should detractors let up, but
I too, would suggest we throw a few fewer barbs in this forum. Problematic is a justifiable word. Defective is the wrong word and too strong.
I suggest we need less hyperbole and more respct due all parties, lowered defenses and a more mature discussion.
I do still recall letting out the inner Leonard, and telling ibiquity their codec screeched like a weasel.
That was gone winthin hours. It's a fine "grabber sentence", but not helpful in discourse much is it?
I hoist a beer to all on both sides. Bottoms up!
A few of HD radios false claims:
http://www.hdradio.com/how_does_hd_digital_radio_sound.php?PHPSESSID=9628d031e68baeb4301ca0397bfff192
http://www.hdradio.com/what_is_hd_digital_radio.php
http://www.hdradio.com/how_does_hd_digital_radio_work.php
http://www.hdradioalliance.com/commercial_archive.php
http://www.ibiquity.com/i/january_%202007.pdf
http://www.hdradio.com/how_does_hd_digital_radio_sound.php?PHPSESSID=9628d031e68baeb4301ca0397bfff192
http://www.hdradio.com/what_is_hd_digital_radio.php
http://www.hdradio.com/how_does_hd_digital_radio_work.php
http://www.hdradioalliance.com/commercial_archive.php
http://www.ibiquity.com/i/january_%202007.pdf
M
Mike Walker
Guest
"Immune" means you won't hear pops, hiss, cracks, etc. And I didn't...during a severe thunderstorm. What I heard was the signal getting louder and then quieter again because the analog and digital levels were poorly matched at WFHE. I had to look at the display to see what was happening, because there was NO noise at any time (and no switching/blending artifacts because WFHE's analog and digital signals are perfectly aligned).
Mike Walker said:
I never get pops, hisses, crackles, static, or mutipath on analog FM. On analog AM, no one really cares about audio quality for news/talk/sports, so giving up 40% of listeners seems a poor tradeoff for HD-AM. Consumers are perfectly happy with the quality of existing analog - that is partly why the sales of expensive, clunky HD radios, requiring external AM-loop and FM-dipole antennas, are so anemic.
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my question. I am hesitant to respond to a lot of these contentions since (As I have stated before) There is exactly one HD station which serves my area at this time and therefore the scope of my experiences isn't all that broad. Since your experience with the product appears to involve fleeting encounters at electronics stores, however, I will convey MY experiences.
OK. I live about 22 KM away from a C1 station, my single HD source. Here's my results.
Do I get CD quality sound? I really don't know. According to the Ibiquity spec, the station can transmit at 96Kps to me. I was unable to find and actualy CD spec, but it strikes me good quality 96Kbs is thrown around as CD quality. I seem to recall Real Audio calls it that. I suppose a subjective "Sounds better to me than a CD" would be "CD Quality". I don't think this is at issue here anyway. The output of the HD radio sounds as good as MOST of the CD's I Own. I give it a "not all that enthusiastic" pass. (That said, it sounds really good to me.)
Do I get crystal clear reception? Yes. I put the Accurian on the shelf and thew the 3ft wire over the back of the shelf. Just like the clock radio in the bedroom. No Fades. No drop offs.
Hmmm. I just answered #3
I do not get static, hiss or distortion. Never once.
My conclusion. In my situation, this product performs as advertised.
Already addressed above. I don't like the word "Immune", but technically it is accurate. HD can not "Get" multipath as far as I can tell. It just handles it and if it gets too bad it quits.
Claim seems true (Although maybe a little Madison Ave) to me.
http://www.ibiquity.com/i/january_%202007.pdf
[/quote]
I do not see anything is the quotes above that is particularly misleading. In fact, I see a lot more misleading stuff on the air and hear it on the radio every day. In my opinion this is the most misleading thing posted above.
An opinion - posted as if it was a fact.
Clouseau
Boy I hope there are facts here. I'd hate to see you start off by putting forth your opinion as a fact. And before we go on, let me say I have "LOOKED" at the multitude of links you posted. I will asume your posting of the highlights and quotes is the info you are referring to. There's a real good chunk of reading with all this stuff and I'm not all that interested in it. After all, it's Advertising...SUPERCASTER said:
OK. I live about 22 KM away from a C1 station, my single HD source. Here's my results.
Do I get CD quality sound? I really don't know. According to the Ibiquity spec, the station can transmit at 96Kps to me. I was unable to find and actualy CD spec, but it strikes me good quality 96Kbs is thrown around as CD quality. I seem to recall Real Audio calls it that. I suppose a subjective "Sounds better to me than a CD" would be "CD Quality". I don't think this is at issue here anyway. The output of the HD radio sounds as good as MOST of the CD's I Own. I give it a "not all that enthusiastic" pass. (That said, it sounds really good to me.)
Do I get crystal clear reception? Yes. I put the Accurian on the shelf and thew the 3ft wire over the back of the shelf. Just like the clock radio in the bedroom. No Fades. No drop offs.
Hmmm. I just answered #3
I do not get static, hiss or distortion. Never once.
My conclusion. In my situation, this product performs as advertised.
As I stated earlier, at my house or office (16KM) I have never experienced Multipath, noise or interference. BTW I was unable to find this exact quote when I did a page search for "eliminates" on both links to get a context. However "Digital audio transmission" does that. You will not hear multipath. You will not hear noise. You will not hear interference. You might not hear ANYTHING if the band goes on an e-skip rampage, but I don't see how you can say it's not an accurate claim.
Already addressed above. I don't like the word "Immune", but technically it is accurate. HD can not "Get" multipath as far as I can tell. It just handles it and if it gets too bad it quits.
Claim seems true (Although maybe a little Madison Ave) to me.
http://www.ibiquity.com/i/january_%202007.pdf
[/quote]
I do not see anything is the quotes above that is particularly misleading. In fact, I see a lot more misleading stuff on the air and hear it on the radio every day. In my opinion this is the most misleading thing posted above.
An opinion - posted as if it was a fact.
Clouseau
PocketRadio said:
This is not true. Just look at WTOP or the Clear Channel FM n/t's in Pittsburgh or New Orleans or the existing n/t's in Trenton and Orlando and Akron... they have vastly more 25-54 than the AM stations, and this is because the under-55 listeners... or potential listeners... will not listen to AM n/t at all due to the quality. When given FM with the same format, they listen in very large numbers.
And, as stated before, the coverage of AM HD is as good as or better than the range where AM's actually get listening.
DavidEduardo said:
"AM Stations' Distant Listeners Hear Static"
"The Wall Street Journal highlights a side-effect of digital AM using HD Radio: More distant listeners who used to get a clear analog AM signal now experience buzz and hiss from adjacent broadcasters who have added HD Radio. This doesn't bother the FCC because the interference isn't heard in core areas, this article notes. But it does reduce listenership."
http://digital-am-fm.com/2006/03/am_stations_distant_listeners.html#comments
"Guy's Predictions for 2007"
"The sad reality is that many stations will lose much of the bonus fringe area coverage they've enjoyed during the analog era as HD adoption accelerates. The commission will only grant relief to qualifying “real” interference so the AM service will mostly lose whatever is left of previously established expanded coverage."
http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0048/t.1596.html
Those of you in the broadcast industry are just digging-your-own-graves, with HD/IBOC - only a few ten-of-thousands are listening with HD radios (maybe, 1 in 30,000), and in the process, especially with HD-AM, you are just driving listeners away. Lots-of-luck !
M
Mike Walker
Guest
Again the point zooms right past Pocket. First of all, if he never hears noises on FM during a thunderstorm, HE'S LISTENING IN MONO! If your only analog reference is FM Mono, please exit the discussion about higher audio quality, so serious-minded people can talk! Oh I forgot, the laws of physics magically cease to exist at Pocket's place...the noises and problems we all experience with analog simply don't affect him!
And speak of missing the point, if audio quality can be improved on AM, the band can attract younger listeners with (gasp) MUSIC! Not too long ago, when Reagan was president, and dinosaurs roamed the Earth, most MUSIC listening was still on AM! If digital radio works properly (still unresolved in my mind with regard to AM!), there's no reason to discriminate between AM and FM. Besides, it's a particularly American thing to think that sound quality doesn't matter for talk programming. The Brits, for instance, are perfectionists about sound quality for talk programs. So is NPR. And it makes a world of difference. People sound like they're in the room with you, not squeaky, nasal-sounding little voices trapped in a tiny box, with eggs frying in the background! To which Homer Simpson would add "Mmmmmm, EGGS!"
And speak of missing the point, if audio quality can be improved on AM, the band can attract younger listeners with (gasp) MUSIC! Not too long ago, when Reagan was president, and dinosaurs roamed the Earth, most MUSIC listening was still on AM! If digital radio works properly (still unresolved in my mind with regard to AM!), there's no reason to discriminate between AM and FM. Besides, it's a particularly American thing to think that sound quality doesn't matter for talk programming. The Brits, for instance, are perfectionists about sound quality for talk programs. So is NPR. And it makes a world of difference. People sound like they're in the room with you, not squeaky, nasal-sounding little voices trapped in a tiny box, with eggs frying in the background! To which Homer Simpson would add "Mmmmmm, EGGS!"
PocketRadio said:
Thanks for the luck. AM can use any break it can get. To continue to debate how good of a decision was made when "out of contour" listening was traded for higher fidelity or more channels doesn't make sense to me. It has aready happened and is the new standard. I can't see us ever going back. If the most amazing thing happened and they shut off all HD, I would look for the improved receiver technology to be used for more allocations. In particular, I would look for full power 2nd adjacents being allowed on FM. I just don't see we will EVER just "Go Back" Frankly I think the current protections are WAY overdone based on the DSP in these new radios if we were to go back to analog only.
Clouseau
PocketRadio said:
Please read the report on the NRSC study of receiver response and listener perception in a recent Radio World. In a wide assortment of receivers, the response was down 10 db at 4.1 kHz, and listeners did not like AM that was broader banded when artifically created in a test environment.
DavidEduardo said:
"There’s a Downside to HD AM Radio: AM Will Sound Better But You May Not Be Able to Hear Long Distance Stations As Well"
Mark Says:
April 10th, 2007 at 11:30 am
Brad,
"Have you heard how bad IBOC (IN-BAND ON-CHANNEL) audio makes the analog AM signal sound? Listen to the “white noise” in the background of KGO when they’re using HD or better yet, listen to the narrow-banded and restricted fidelity of KMJ 580 AM. The IBOC digital process destroys the fidelity of analog AM. Have you heard how awful KNEW and KABL sound - IBOC! But listen to am AM without IBOC (KSCO 1080, KLOK 1170, KNTS 1220 or KYA 1260) Note how much cleaner and clearer the audio is - notice the smoothness of the mid’s and the highs. IBOC/HD on AM is a disaster and will ultimately lead to the end of AM radio. KGO’s chief engineer has spent many hours dissecting and figuring out how to make his radio station sound listenable in analog while broadcasting in HD - he’s somewhat succeeded, but the IBOC has still tremendously degraded what was once one of the best sounding broadcast signals on AM or FM! And just wait until AM HD starts broadcasting at night - the entire band will be completely unlistenable. The level of interference on the dial will make it virtually impossible to listen to any radio other than the ones in your immediate vicinity. The level of interference will be so bad, that SJ listeners will only hear the most powerful (KNBR, KCBS, & KGO) SF AM stations in their homes at night. Everything will be a mish-mash of white noise, buzz and hum. What a tremendous improvement!!!"
http://tinyurl.com/3929od
You shall reap-what-you-sew, Eduardo !
PocketRadio said:
Since nearly nobody does that anymore, and stations have no revenue from such distant reception, this is basically irrelevant.
Since the average radio rolls off 10 db just over 4 mHz, this point is also irrelevant.
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