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Time For An AM Radio Revival
- Thread starter Carmine5
- Start date
David Eduardo wrote:
You have the literal meaning of the word right, David, but it’s taken on an entirely different meaning in the mass media today. As a noun, it’s commonly used as a euphemism for “Fundamentalist,” and that’s a shame, because a belief in salvation through grace, gained by an understanding of the gospel (which, like the Greek ευαγγελιον and the Latin evangelium, means “good news”), as embraced by Lutherans, is hardly the same as the anti-intellectual brand of biblical literalism practiced by the Fundies.
Lutheranism is the dominant form of Protestantism is Germany and in Scandinavia, and a majority of the world’s Lutheran bodies have the word “Evangelical” in their names.
The German word evangelisch is commonly used in informal German usage as a synonym either for lutherisch or for protestantisch (German proper adjectives are not capitalized).
Now consider this statement from the Grand View U. site you say you visitied:
Sounds more like a good Catholic university than a Fundie one, doesn’t it? In spirit, and in academic respectability, Grand View is much closer to Notre Dame than to Liberty or Regent – or Bob Jones!
Now admit it, David. You were just trying to smear Stephen Winzenburg when you call Grand View U, the school where he teaches, “a self proclaimed evangelical Lutheran school,” weren’t you? Of course you were. And you were doing that because you want to discredit anyone who disagrees with you about the viability of AM, or anything else (especially "HD").
You have the literal meaning of the word right, David, but it’s taken on an entirely different meaning in the mass media today. As a noun, it’s commonly used as a euphemism for “Fundamentalist,” and that’s a shame, because a belief in salvation through grace, gained by an understanding of the gospel (which, like the Greek ευαγγελιον and the Latin evangelium, means “good news”), as embraced by Lutherans, is hardly the same as the anti-intellectual brand of biblical literalism practiced by the Fundies.
Lutheranism is the dominant form of Protestantism is Germany and in Scandinavia, and a majority of the world’s Lutheran bodies have the word “Evangelical” in their names.
The German word evangelisch is commonly used in informal German usage as a synonym either for lutherisch or for protestantisch (German proper adjectives are not capitalized).
Now consider this statement from the Grand View U. site you say you visitied:
Sounds more like a good Catholic university than a Fundie one, doesn’t it? In spirit, and in academic respectability, Grand View is much closer to Notre Dame than to Liberty or Regent – or Bob Jones!
Now admit it, David. You were just trying to smear Stephen Winzenburg when you call Grand View U, the school where he teaches, “a self proclaimed evangelical Lutheran school,” weren’t you? Of course you were. And you were doing that because you want to discredit anyone who disagrees with you about the viability of AM, or anything else (especially "HD").
Ken Tucky said,
That bunch owns the commercial classical music station in St. Louis, a Class C-1 – and they;’re about to sell it to an outfit called Gateway Creative, which wants a better signal for its “Joy FM “ – a “Christian Contemporary” format. There are some very shady things about this proposed deal, and more level-headed members of the church are among those trying to stop it. I recommend Sarah Bryan miller’s reporting on thei on her blog. Here’s the most recent entry: http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...610D876E6404D80C8625767F00168198?OpenDocument
And I suggest you look at the earlier entries on her blog to get the whole sordid story, especially the rôle of Nebraska politico Kermit Brashear in this outrage.
And please don’t equate the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which owns Grand View U and St. Olaf College, with the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Go back and see what I said in Reply # 15.
I can understand your exasperation, Ken, if your chief experience with Lutherans is with the Misery Synod.
That bunch owns the commercial classical music station in St. Louis, a Class C-1 – and they;’re about to sell it to an outfit called Gateway Creative, which wants a better signal for its “Joy FM “ – a “Christian Contemporary” format. There are some very shady things about this proposed deal, and more level-headed members of the church are among those trying to stop it. I recommend Sarah Bryan miller’s reporting on thei on her blog. Here’s the most recent entry: http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...610D876E6404D80C8625767F00168198?OpenDocument
And I suggest you look at the earlier entries on her blog to get the whole sordid story, especially the rôle of Nebraska politico Kermit Brashear in this outrage.
And please don’t equate the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which owns Grand View U and St. Olaf College, with the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Go back and see what I said in Reply # 15.
Evangelical is indeed a word that has been subject to perceptual shift over the years, as our public discourse has become more vitriolic.
The literal definition is "pertaining to the good news". The perception in the general public, however is that it now stands for
"fundamentalist, myopic, inflexible, yet politically motivated" religious Christian viewpoints.
This is unfortunate, as is most of the polarization fostered by ignoring the spirit of the Fairness Doctrine and general civilized discussion.
"You have your set of blinders, and I have mine, so go tune in your preferred syncophants, and I'll tune in mine."
This makes it easy to dehumanize another's viewpoint, dismiss it as noise and promote a closed mind as healthy somehow.
Very true that in the inner city there is a completely different set of problems than in the suburbs, RF-wise.
One thing is still the same....digital radio is not robust enough to be a meaningful contender to replace analog.
I'm lucky to live by a park, a river, on the "good' side of town, but HD AMs outside of town by 20 miles haven't enough oomph to
decode in my dense brick and steel neighborhhod, and HD FMs are flummoxed and drop out every time an airplane goes overhead on
approach to O'Hare. And that's continuously, since there are now 3 parallel East-West runways at O'Hare.
It's very hard to even get analog stereo to decode anymore since the sidebands encroach so far into the core FM analog.
When I listen to my pt 15 AM, I am angry that so many things have conspired to destroy the AM MW service and audio.
If my pipsqueak station can sound as good as or better than an FM, there's really no good excuse for so many AMs to sound so bad.
The literal definition is "pertaining to the good news". The perception in the general public, however is that it now stands for
"fundamentalist, myopic, inflexible, yet politically motivated" religious Christian viewpoints.
This is unfortunate, as is most of the polarization fostered by ignoring the spirit of the Fairness Doctrine and general civilized discussion.
"You have your set of blinders, and I have mine, so go tune in your preferred syncophants, and I'll tune in mine."
This makes it easy to dehumanize another's viewpoint, dismiss it as noise and promote a closed mind as healthy somehow.
Very true that in the inner city there is a completely different set of problems than in the suburbs, RF-wise.
One thing is still the same....digital radio is not robust enough to be a meaningful contender to replace analog.
I'm lucky to live by a park, a river, on the "good' side of town, but HD AMs outside of town by 20 miles haven't enough oomph to
decode in my dense brick and steel neighborhhod, and HD FMs are flummoxed and drop out every time an airplane goes overhead on
approach to O'Hare. And that's continuously, since there are now 3 parallel East-West runways at O'Hare.
It's very hard to even get analog stereo to decode anymore since the sidebands encroach so far into the core FM analog.
When I listen to my pt 15 AM, I am angry that so many things have conspired to destroy the AM MW service and audio.
If my pipsqueak station can sound as good as or better than an FM, there's really no good excuse for so many AMs to sound so bad.
radioskeptic said:
So, the college is not a self proclaimed (insert a hyphen if you wish) evangelical Lutheran school?
My point, if you re-read my post, is to indicate that a large part of the body of writings and dissertations of Mr. Winzenburg have to do with broadcast ministries. In other words, he is concerned with evangelizing, or "spreading the word" (capitalize "Word" if you wish). His next largest body of work is about things like TV sitcoms. He seems to have published nearly nothing about plain old commercial radio, in fact.
Stating, or demonstrating, that an opinion that comes from a person who is perhaps less than well prepared to form an opinion on a particular subject may not be an opinion worth considering. Or if worth considering, also worth dismissing based on lack of empirical evidence and experience in the area of discussion.
I think that the evidence supports paying scant heed to the blather written by the professor in question.
AM is not long for the world. Mexico is trying to eliminate all but a few dozen AMs, and most states will have none when the transition is complete. Canada has eliminated about 60% of its AMs. These two neighbors understand realith. In fact, the Mexican senate stated in the bill authorizing the transition that AM was at a disadvantage on many levels and could no longer remain competitive (The CIRT page has the complete bill transcribed).
When most markets only have one AM in the top 10 or 15 stations, and when such stations have big jumps in sales demographics upon moving to or simulcasting on FM, it's obvious that AM is over and in its last period of existence as a mass medium.
I am on record years ago as saying that AM HD can not save the AM band. Nothing can. With the recession, HD is not helping FM, either (although many staitons are making large amounts of money leasing HD channels) due to the economy. But diverting this thread to HD ignores the fact that nothing can save AM as a mass medium. And the professor's ideas are, in this context, much more than rarranging deck chairs on the Titanic... they are just absurd.
radioskeptic said:
Thank you for sharing your linguistic skills and knowledge with us, as well as demonstrating that you can use Greek fonts.
Proper adjectives are not capitalized in Portuguese or Spanish, either. "Spanish colonists" are "colonializadores españoles" and "Mexican food" is "comida mexicana."
But then, not everyone is a polyglot and most don't care.
Since this discussion isn't under the heading of "International Radio" who gives a rat's tail about radio in Mexico.
As far as I'm concerned Stephen Winzenburg's credentials qualify him as an expert to discuss the potential of AM in this country. Indeed his thoughts coincide with the opinions of other radio experts as presented in past issues of Radio World as well as that of one of our own resident experts, Mr. Bob Savage.
http://www.rwonline.com/article/89902
This is more than enough proof for me that AM radio has a future in this country if done right.
c5
As far as I'm concerned Stephen Winzenburg's credentials qualify him as an expert to discuss the potential of AM in this country. Indeed his thoughts coincide with the opinions of other radio experts as presented in past issues of Radio World as well as that of one of our own resident experts, Mr. Bob Savage.
http://www.rwonline.com/article/89902
This is more than enough proof for me that AM radio has a future in this country if done right.
c5
Carmine5 said:
Mexico and Canada were cited as countries that have seen that AM is at the end of its life cycle and needs to become a niche service (Canada, for the most part) or eliminated (Mexico). The same has happened in coutries as diverse as Ecuador, South Africa and Austria. Since the failure of AM to remain competitive is almost universal, it stands to reason that looking at solutions from other nations is a logical step.
He has never done the things he suggests, and never been in a postion where he is the person responsible for the future of a station and subject to the consequences of his actions. As such, he is part of the crowd in the stands, not an NFL player on the field in this game.
Radio World is an engineering publication. It would not be my choice for useful and innovative thinking from programming perspectives.
Oh, the guy who defends AM from his low rated Rochester also-ran station? That's like going to SAAB for advice on the auto industry.
It's been pretty well documented that the few remaining viable AM formats (other than nice brokered and religious offerings) do much better demographically if they move to an FM simulcast or just totally move to the FM band. The appeal of any format on AM is limited when the sales demographics are analyzed, because there is just no interest in AM to the ages most advertisers seek.
DavidEduardo said:
Ouch! Okay I've disagreed with Bob Savage from time-to-time, but that was a shot!
Whereas I completely agree that the best days of AM have come and continue to go downhill, I am curious how stand alone AM's in a market like Rochester are fairing. Certainly the economy is taking a toll on broadcast media as a whole, (I own 3 FM stations and can vouch for that statement), but AM's must have a much steeper hill to climb.
Bob, without going into details, how are things holding up in sales?
Game off!
Okay kids, (charitably including Eduardo)....This thread brings to mind the old bit out of TM's Tomorrow Radio.
"Hey, how did that chicken basketball game turn out?"
"I don't know, I left after 17 overtimes with the score still tied at 0-0 with 329 chickens dead."
Ok, game on!
Okay kids, (charitably including Eduardo)....This thread brings to mind the old bit out of TM's Tomorrow Radio.
"Hey, how did that chicken basketball game turn out?"
"I don't know, I left after 17 overtimes with the score still tied at 0-0 with 329 chickens dead."
Ok, game on!
Thanks for asking, Howard - and for being a gentleman. It's a very good thing when we can have a spirited discussion here, disagree genially, hang onto our convictions but also our respect for one another.
WYSL has had its best year ever...in a market which is generally down 20%, we're up 9% over 2008 to the end of November. 09 would have been better still but for revenue loss at night due to WBZ's interference. Naturally advertisers want to get value for their money, and if nobody can hear the station...
We are every enthusiastic about 2010, since we bought an FM translator which we are in the process of upgrading and moving to a new TL. It should be on the air in January. This should largely fix the coverage problem caused by IBOC in Rochester.
My best wishes to you and your family for the Holidays.
WYSL has had its best year ever...in a market which is generally down 20%, we're up 9% over 2008 to the end of November. 09 would have been better still but for revenue loss at night due to WBZ's interference. Naturally advertisers want to get value for their money, and if nobody can hear the station...
We are every enthusiastic about 2010, since we bought an FM translator which we are in the process of upgrading and moving to a new TL. It should be on the air in January. This should largely fix the coverage problem caused by IBOC in Rochester.
My best wishes to you and your family for the Holidays.
DavidEduardo said:
I think one of the nice things about being an academic is that they learn to have an open mind and see things as they are not how they want to see them.
As soon as the scourge of IBLOCK has been gotten rid of and the transmitters are opened back up so that AM stations sound good again AM will come back, it is not going anywhere anyway, it's demise has been greatly exaggerated here by certain sour old posters.
KB1OKL said:
In other words, they have lost all touch with reality.
An NRSC committee headed by no less than Bob Orban determined that the average consumer radio today is off 10 db at 3.9 KHz. Further, it was determined that using the full NRSC 10 KHz bandwith with most radios was worse sounding than when cut at an optimal 6KHz.
HD can be run successfully with a 6 KHz mask, as has been demonstrated... and used... by quite a few stations. Running that way preserves the best possible quality of AM while allowing HD... since there is nothing to be gained on the vast majority of radios in use today by going beyond 6 KHz.
It's been mentioned in other threads that the biggest technical problem with AM is the quality, or lack of such, of almost all AM receivers today.
And whatever the issue, AM is no longer viable as a means of reaching under-55's, whether the programming is news/talk or non-stop duck quacks.
Edward,
We are weary of your pontificating about the demise of AM, about how it can't sound decent, and about how nobody listens to AM any more. You are seriously out of touch with reality. Here in Chicago, we have WGN and it is one of the best radio stations anywhere, on AM or FM.
If the industry would realize what a huge millstone HD radio is around its neck and shut of the noise and interference, we'd all be a lot better off.
We are weary of your pontificating about the demise of AM, about how it can't sound decent, and about how nobody listens to AM any more. You are seriously out of touch with reality. Here in Chicago, we have WGN and it is one of the best radio stations anywhere, on AM or FM.
If the industry would realize what a huge millstone HD radio is around its neck and shut of the noise and interference, we'd all be a lot better off.
D
DuckBlue
Guest
I blame a lot of AM problems on the receivers. I have been around long enough to remember cars with AM only radios in the top 40 era. The radios performed and sounded far better than they do today. I recently bought a new Dual AM/FM/HD car radio and the AM sounds awful.
Back in the AM stereo days, I went with a friend to test drive a new car. He was driving and I was in the front passenger seat. The salesman was in the back seat. I said that I wanted to check out the AM tuner on the radio to see if it was a stereo receiver. I switched to AM and tuned in to an adult standards station that was in stereo. When the salesman heard it, he told me that I had the radio on FM, not AM. Unfortunately, the radio was mono. I wonder how the salesman would have reacted if it had been stereo.
Back in the AM stereo days, I went with a friend to test drive a new car. He was driving and I was in the front passenger seat. The salesman was in the back seat. I said that I wanted to check out the AM tuner on the radio to see if it was a stereo receiver. I switched to AM and tuned in to an adult standards station that was in stereo. When the salesman heard it, he told me that I had the radio on FM, not AM. Unfortunately, the radio was mono. I wonder how the salesman would have reacted if it had been stereo.
audioguy said:
"Edward" is not any part of my name.
"We" is a lot of people. I think you are speaking only for yourself and a small group of people with blinders on.
Try to read a bit more carefully. I did not say that "nobody" listened any more. I said, and there is a wealth of data to prove this, that nearly nobody undre 55 listens any more.
And AM can not sound decent if the radios in common use today are down 10 db a 3.9 KHz (I am assuming that you know who Bob Orban is). Even more an issue is that multitask devices today may have FM, but more and more have no AM in them.
And, except for baseball season, it barely makes the top 20 in 25-54 listening. It's revenue, as a consequence, is suffering.
AM HD is not going to help the band... and it does, save some isolated interference issues, not do any harm. You make it seem that the panacea for AM's terrible demographics and declining ratings and the defection to FM of many significant stations / formats is to shut off HD. That won't help even a tiny bit.
DavidEduardo said:
?? ? ?!
I need to hear some extrapolation on this, David. Which part about learning and academics offends you, the actual learning or the
"environment and flavor of academia" ...as we know it in 2009? This is a serious question. I can't quite believe your next logical thought
would be the defense of the closed mind, but it sounded like that's where you would be headed with this line of reasoning.
Tom Wells said:
There is nothing wrong with learning but I believe the best, albeit simplified, concept is that schooling teaches just enough for the real, on the job, learning process to begin.
Probably the best example would be medical students, who spend more time learning on the job as interns and residents than in school studying medicine from books and lab projects.
The academic who has practical experience would, in my mind, be superior to the one who went from degree to the classroom.
I defend practical experience when combined with a good academic grounding. I don't defend academics functionioning in a closed environment, particularly in areas that demand contact with reality... such as any part of a radio station.
However, I find most communications shcools to be either outdated, out of touch or too altruistic. I realize today that radio is not the focus of most such curricula, but this was particularly true in decades past. Textbooks were out of date, professors were out of touch, and the idea than even PBS was not doing enough for culture permeated the environment.
I had the good fortune to have about a decade of work experience before I went to college (although I did some indivuidual classes as a teen) so when I went back, and not needing a degree, I designed my radio "degree program" to include business, business law, accounting, finance, ethics, psychology, anthropology, sociology, math, statistics, writing, literature and such.
The only broadcast course I took was "Broadcast Management" where my term paper was poorly graded; I used the exact concept a few months later to create a top 15 market's #1 18-49 women station... confirming my opinion.
On the other hand, the social science classes were the true basis for the programming tasks I would take on over the years, yet none of those were part of the broadcast curriculum!
And, returning to the subject, it's hard for me to envision an academic who has never been responsible for a budget, a bottom line or all the other things about real commercial radio to give us answers to how to save AM radio... something even the owners of billions of dollars in AM station assets have not been able to pull off.
Good, we're in agreement that academia is only a stepping stone to true learning, and important one.
And that academia is not a practical end in itself, but a good basis for something else.
I try to keep an open mind, but am also quite familiar with the doctoral thesis mindset, from writing my patents.
My point of view and conviction is, and was, rock solid and I could not have obtained the patents without this certainty and
personal convition.
I did not need a research department, grant, or other niceties of academia, but the education from Valpo Tech was instrumental.
And that academia is not a practical end in itself, but a good basis for something else.
I try to keep an open mind, but am also quite familiar with the doctoral thesis mindset, from writing my patents.
My point of view and conviction is, and was, rock solid and I could not have obtained the patents without this certainty and
personal convition.
I did not need a research department, grant, or other niceties of academia, but the education from Valpo Tech was instrumental.
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