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Too many commercials!

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And if I were an advertiser I would want my message to be a bit more visible than that.

As I've pointed out several times, advertisers buy hundreds of spots, and they air at different points in the cluster. Most stations will offer the opportunity to always be the first spot in the cluster, and it's rare when an advertiser takes it. Because listeners are also tuning in during spot breaks, and it's possible someone will tune in at the precise moment your spot is running.
 
Landtuna,

We would certainly disagree on a few things but that's fine.

So, assuming you have worked in radio and in radio sales, how did you gauge that subconscious listening is incorrect? Do you have any research? I can tell you people I had buying from me used radio exclusively and sometimes just the station I sold for. I believe, based on what I have witnessed, passive listening is very effective. You sure don't think sales people are simply liars, do you?

How many businesses have you walked in to and asked what brought you there? I never have been asked personally but I'm just one person.
 


You are not referencing a post with an opinion. I described my trip to work. How is that an opinion?

The first four paragraphs of b-turner's post described his experience as a radio salesperson. It included the anecdotal evidence of his father's bookstore advertising on radio.

I didn't say I was referencing a post with an opinion. I was saying that there was the same kind of anecdotal content as you seem to love using as your rebuttal to the facts.


landtuna said:

And I'll bet every single person in radio airtime sales knows that pitch. Doesn't make it true.

Therefore, b-turner's narrative is a lie ... is that what you're saying?


landtuna said:

I didn't think I was arguing. Simply stating my opinion as most everyone else does.

Stating one's "opinion" over and over again in an attempt to override the facts presented as rebuttal is an argument. It also fits Einstein's famous definition.

I still don't know why you're wasting your time trying to prove your point when no one here is buying it.
 
In a lot of examples, such as Jack Benny, the sponsor (there were several over the years) actually owned the air time and Benny (and associates) were hired directly by the sponsor. He makes note of this almost every year at contract time. Other shows like Fibber McGee & Molly were the same. Because the show was actually owned by the sponsor they often wove the commercial right into the show dialog itself. Either that or segued into a speech by people like Don Wilson who spoke the commercial.

Again, clients bought radio that way because they had complete ownership of the show, with no other sponsors. So the commercials became part of the show, either with a regular staff announcer (which we have held over in the late-night TV shows for decades) or even the talent from the show.

The trade magazines annuals of the Golden Age of radio are filled with ads for the ad agencies that bought network time and produced shows for their clients. A principal selling point for an agency was the success of the shows they had assembled for other clients.[/SIZE][/FONT]
 


In a lot of examples, such as Jack Benny, the sponsor (there were several over the years) actually owned the air time and Benny (and associates) were hired directly by the sponsor. He makes note of this almost every year at contract time. Other shows like Fibber McGee & Molly were the same. Because the show was actually owned by the sponsor they often wove the commercial right into the show dialog itself. Either that or segued into a speech by people like Don Wilson who spoke the commercial.
The only Jack Benny sponsors I can think of were Jello and Lucky Strike. Were there others? By the way, I believe that Motel 6 uses radio exclusively. I'm sure there are others. There's something else I intended to mention: There's an old story about 7up consistently coming in third behind Coke and Pepsi with a seven share. This went on for years and they decided to stop advertising because there hadn't been any change in eons. Market share immediately dropped to three percent and they never got it back or at least not until the "Uncola" campaign much later. This was of course before the advent of Sprite or any diet sodas. I'll bet they'd like to have seven percent now!
 
So, assuming you have worked in radio and in radio sales, how did you gauge that subconscious listening is incorrect?

I have never worked in commercial radio, just military, and I have not said that subconscious listening is "incorrect". I do not agree that it is at the level some professionals here say it is but, again, that goes back to personal observation instead of their "documented sources". I have seen too many times when people, asked what commercial they just heard, could not remember and I am including myself in that list. The results are better with TV watchers than radio listeners but not by a significant amount. And the number really fizzles when the number of commercials exceeds three. I have tried this as a party game in my house and found that the age of the viewer/listener is not significant (to a point with grampa dozing off in the corner) but gender is. Women do tend to remember better than men (at least when the program being watch is a football game).

There are also other indicators. For example, Home Depot does a lot of advertising where I live so you would think I subconsciously think first of them when I need home improvement items. But wait! They are also the most popular store of its type here and the closest one is but 2 miles from my house. So which is it? Convenience? Experience? Habit? Subconscious listening? I think the answer is obvious.

Do you have any research? I can tell you people I had buying from me used radio exclusively and sometimes just the station I sold for. I believe, based on what I have witnessed, passive listening is very effective. You sure don't think sales people are simply liars, do you?

My father was a lifelong salesperson so no, sales people like him were definitely not liars. There are some very good liars in sales though and we all can probably name the industries they work in (although I am not saying radio or TV sales people are on this list). My dad's perspective on sales was that the sales person find out what the end product was to be then provide the necessary parts and pieces to achieve that goal. Doesn't much matter what you are selling. He thought if you make your customer successful then you, also, will be successful. Kind of simplistic but basically true I think. But we are talking about advertising here not necessarily sales and the methods and measurements tend to be different.

How many businesses have you walked in to and asked what brought you there? I never have been asked personally but I'm just one person.

I don't recall having ever been asked in person but perhaps a dozen times when buying something over the Internet.

Update: Thinking a bit more about this I would have to say that I have been asked quite a few more times over the 'Net if you include follow-up emails or questionnaires and not just at the time of sale.
 
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It sounds like your Dad sells like I do. I went from behind the microphone to sales and I thought I hated sales. My boss told me to go out and make friends and work for your friend's continued success without any worry about my own. I could wrap my head around that.

I am the same way about instant recall of, say the last commercial break on radio or TV and even if I pick up a newspaper to read a story, I couldn't say what ads were on that page. Likewise, the ads on the last website I cannot recall. I think it is safe to say all advertising is a gamble and that passive viewing/listening is more the norm than not. I recall a mail order guru telling me a 1% return was okay, 3% was incredible. How many ready that shopper that shows up every week, going to every house? Many just trash it unread. How about all those billboards you see on a trip down to the store, to work, etc.?

While the above does not paint a real rosy picture for advertising in virtually any form, the fact it survives and/or flourishes says it works. You mention Home Depot. You can bet if radio didn't work for them, they would not be buying radio. That can be said for any advertiser that buys any media option or advertising venue. There are only so many clients and if it doesn't work you are more quickly that we might suspect, out of potential clients.

Something I thought was interesting when I was doing radio sales in a community that had a fishing lake that attracted about 1.2 million visitors a year, I noticed a guy had just opened a boat rental shop. He had only been open a few days. We talked about where he felt his customer would come from and many other things. There was a fishing tournament coming up and I suggested he buy an ad in the state fishing magazine that was featuring a few pages on the lake and the tournament. Since he said he felt his 'bread and butter' was the local looking for a day on the lake, I suggested a small order centered toward weekends following the 1st and 15th of the month, when most people got paid. He bought. So, the entire marketing dollars went to an ad in a fishing magazine and my 'payday weekend' schedule.

He said he was going to ask every customer where they heard about him. I cautioned him about results. I told him people didn't remember. I showed up after the fishing tournament to see how he did. He did well on those payday weekends and the tournament. The results of asking people where they heard of him, well, the magazine came in first because he had a cut out dollars off coupon. Radio got zero responses. Second was the newspaper (he never had an ad in the paper) and the Yellow Pages (he was a new business and not listed in the phone book...this was pre-internet). A couple said TV (no ad there either). Looking at his sales, he could see big spikes around the 1st and 15th. Sure, those days were 'prime time' for renting a boat but there were many long established and bigger boat rental shops so I felt good about the results, figuring his advertising had paid off pretty well. He felt the same way.

I did make a huge mistake in sales (before I learned sales). I was told to go get the local Dairy Queen on the air. It was suggested the lunch special be the product advertised. This DQ used to run an off menu lunch special as an all you can eat buffet. The client suggested we run a special where the radio listener said radio to get a big discount (half price). I ran a heavy schedule with lots of bonus spots. I could see the DQ from the station. The parking lot was full and people parked along the street for a block or more, something that never happened. After it slowed, I checked on results. Yes, they ran out of food an hour in to the special. It was the biggest lunch run they ever had. In the owner's mind radio didn't work because nobody asked for the special. I never got another dime out of them and could not convince them the busy day was due to radio. Why did people not say radio to pay half price? I think most were not confident enough about how to get the discount to demand or mention it. They did remember the place and what the meal was. When given the price, I'm guessing they thought they heard the price wrong. I can't say exactly why. I can say you're doomed when you make the listener mention radio to get the deal. I suspect the same goes for other media unless it is a printed coupon you present.

I used to love it when I could get a local advertiser to let me develop a series of spots centered on characters. I had a barbecue restaurant that did. There was the man, his wife and Tripod, his 3 legged dog that sounded like a gorilla and always wanted a barbecue burrito and a beer, and the mother-in-law, which always caused the old man to buy a family pack that would feed 4 because, as he would tell his wife "You know how your momma eats". People used to call to try to get their pet on the commercials and people would call to request we play the commercial. I always though it was silly spots but it took on a life of its own. The owner even held a Tripod look alike contest! Then there was the pest control guy that let me carry on the saga of Bubba Bug and his brother Stinky Bug, the meanest, oneriest and biggest bugs in the west, that made the other exterminators shake in their boots. By no means are these stellar but unusual and greatly aided the business in gaining new customers and they continued to buy for years. In fact the pest control place would let me know where local infestations were happening and we'd tag the spot with "Bubba was last seen near the corner of X and Y streets. If you see Bubba Bug, you know who you gotta call" (think old west saga here).
 
I have seen too many times when people, asked what commercial they just heard, could not remember and I am including myself in that list. The results are better with TV watchers than radio listeners but not by a significant amount. And the number really fizzles when the number of commercials exceeds three. I have tried this as a party game in my house and found that the age of the viewer/listener is not significant (to a point with grampa dozing off in the corner) but gender is. Women do tend to remember better than men (at least when the program being watch is a football game).

One. Big. Anecdote. :mad:
 
One. Big. Anecdote. :mad:

I keep sitting here waiting for the big light to go on over Tuna's head but it never does. Subliminal advertising is NOT recalled on demand. If it made that sort of impression on one listen, then it wouldn't be subliminal; the listener must have been paying attention. Subliminal advertising works its way into your subconscious through repeated impressions. And one of the primary logical fallacies is "Everyone I know does/likes/hates X, therefore everyone does/likes/hates X." The reason is obvious: Your acquaintances are not chosen at random, they know you, they probably like you, and they're probably heard you go on about your likes/dislikes before and will tell you what you want to hear just to avoid going through it again.

Light bulb on yet?
 
And one of the primary logical fallacies is "Everyone I know does/likes/hates X, therefore everyone does/likes/hates X." The reason is obvious: Your acquaintances are not chosen at random, they know you, they probably like you, and they're probably heard you go on about your likes/dislikes before and will tell you what you want to hear just to avoid going through it again.

Another possibility: "Everyone I know does/likes/hates X" because my family and circle of friends think like I do, therefore we will think in lockstep whenever these types of issues surface. Still a logical fallacy, of course ...
 


If subliminal advertising worked as well as all of you think it does then there would be only two automobile brands in the USA: Ford and GM.

Really? How long has it been since the only auto advertising on American radio was for the two biggest US automakers? Even the few stick-in-the-mud standards stations out in nowhere-land must accept advertising from the local Toyota dealer by now.
 


If subliminal advertising worked as well as all of you think it does then there would be only two automobile brands in the USA: Ford and GM.

Now, sir, you have become simplistic to the point of proving how out of touch you are. I still hear ads on KRTH for a local Mercedes-Benz dealer in Orange County (just to cite one example to disprove your assertion).
 


If subliminal advertising worked as well as all of you think it does then there would be only two automobile brands in the USA: Ford and GM.

I can combine two of your false statements in one answer. First, the idea that radio does not work. Second, the one you raise here about only thinking about two brands.

First: a clarification. Making multiple impressions on a consumer over time is not subliminal. It is just advertising. While the consumer may not have top of mind awareness when questioned, they have brand recognition that builds up as long as there is reinforcement.

So here is the case.

Years ago, it was thought that Hispanics in LA did not buy new luxury cars (Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, etc). They didn't advertise them on Spanish language radio.

So a Lexus dealer in the central part of LA decided to invest in advertising on a certain contemporary formatted Spanish language station. This was the perfect test, because they practically sold no cars to Spanish speaking Hispanics. They ran a month, two months and saw little results... maybe a few cars sold to Spanish speakers. But they were smart enough to realize that car ads are only "heard" when a person is looking for a new car. They kept advertising.

By the end of 6 months, over a third of all sales were to Spanish speakers. By the end of the year, that group was the majority of all new car buyers.

The ongoing campaign created awareness and established the dealer as wanting the business of Spanish speakers. So as those who were looking for that range of cars got closer to the buying point, the idea of visiting that dealer became top of mind until the time that they actually went car shopping. From that point on, it was up to the dealer to convert the ups to sales.

Radio worked for that dealer. And sustained levels of impressions make the chances of a sale greater when it's time for a purchase.

I've personally sold and serviced hundreds if not thousands of accounts that have given me that kind of story in the years I managed or sold for radio stations. That's what keeps those customers renewing and what keeps stations in business. Most radio advertising is local. In most cases, it's the cash register that is the real "ratings" for a buy.
 
And let's not forget, just because something is advertised today does not mean it will be purchased today by any given listener. If that appliance store is running a sale on Maytag Washers & Dryers and GE Refrigerators at a huge discount, how many of you are going to run out and buy one today if you are not in need of a new washer & dryer or a new refrigerator. The businesses know keeping the brand out there day after day means when the consumer needs them, they will have a really good shot at getting that consumer to buy from them.
 
And let's not forget, just because something is advertised today does not mean it will be purchased today by any given listener. If that appliance store is running a sale on Maytag Washers & Dryers and GE Refrigerators at a huge discount, how many of you are going to run out and buy one today if you are not in need of a new washer & dryer or a new refrigerator. The businesses know keeping the brand out there day after day means when the consumer needs them, they will have a really good shot at getting that consumer to buy from them.

It's an interesting coincidence that we were discussing this at home yesterday in the context of Black Friday. Our conclusion was the same: even if you see a great price on a major appliance, you are not in the market unless you really need it, but when you need it you tend to need it urgently. But things like big screen TVs are something we wait for the right time and right price for, so we pay more attention to those ads if we are hoping for a good deal.

When it is a deal oriented purchase, we may consider several stores. When it is a timely and necessary replacement for the fridge or washer, then we go for the reputation, service and other factors as well as price. Both are, in different ways, driven by adverting.
 
This whole thread is typical of the world we live in today. "I know what I know, and I know it because I know it, and as a result, your business is wrong and needs to change to suit me, because I want to enjoy my media for free. And if you don't change to suit me, I'll just go someplace else."
 
Really? How long has it been since the only auto advertising on American radio was for the two biggest US automakers? Even the few stick-in-the-mud standards stations out in nowhere-land must accept advertising from the local Toyota dealer by now.

I was being somewhat facetious but you get the idea. In my market it seems the two American brands are the most popular car advertisers on electronic media.
 
Now, sir, you have become simplistic to the point of proving how out of touch you are. I still hear ads on KRTH for a local Mercedes-Benz dealer in Orange County (just to cite one example to disprove your assertion).

We've got MB dealers here in the sticks too but they advertise nowhere near as often as the domestic brands.
 
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