Top-40 AMs transition in the 80s.

[michael hagerty]

I, for one, believe that none of the big, legendary top-40 AMs would have dropped the format if they could have continued to be profitable with it.

I completely agree. It's why RKO didn't move KHJ to 101.1 FM. By the time they knew they were in trouble, KRTH was too profitable.

And even if they had---let's say in 1977, when Van Dyke left---what would they have done with the AM that would have worked?

But FM took that audience away ... big time.

Exactly. Bob Hamilton's KRTH (when it was arguably AC and when R&R insisted on listing it as a CHR reporter) did as much damage to KHJ as KMET did.

 

[michael hagerty]

...which leads to the question: If the FCC hadn't f**ed up AM Stereo and had type-approved one system in, say, 1976...could they have actually survived?

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Business/Music/Archive-RandR-IDX/IDX/70s/76/RR-1976-01-30-OCR-Page-0001.pdf#search=%22am%20stereo%22

 

[spiritof67]

...which leads to the question: If the FCC hadn't f**ed up AM Stereo and had type-approved one system in, say, 1976...could they have actually survived?

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Business/Music/Archive-RandR-IDX/IDX/70s/76/RR-1976-01-30-OCR-Page-0001.pdf#search=%22am%20stereo%22

Even with better fidelity and one stereo standard, I think the results would have been the same--it just would have taken longer.

AM has coverage issues within cities that FM doesn't have. There's also the natural and man made interference that makes AM less reliable.

As a fan of AM and Short Wave, I've seen these issues affect AM stations world wide. While phenomena like propagation and fading interest me, most listeners prefer listening to something reliable.

 

[K.M. Richards]

...which leads to the question: If the FCC hadn't f**ed up AM Stereo and had type-approved one system in, say, 1976...could they have actually survived?

I think it would have depended on how quickly the population acquired AM stereo receivers. The only comparison possible is the timeline for HD acceptance; based on that, I don't think AM stereo would have extended the CHR format on AM much past the mid-1980s.

 

[davideduardo]

That's what they said...but it's not true.

So here are the facts:

Phoenix at the time was a two-book-per-year market. Spring (April/May) and Fall (October/November):

KRIZ' last book (April/May 1978) was a 3.0, a tie for 11th place with KOPA AM/FM.

KRIZ' last #1 book was three years before its format change, April/May 1975, when it had a 9.3.

But that didn't last---it dumped nearly half that number, falling to a 4.9 in the fall. The benefactor was KUPD, which was Top 40 at the time and beat KRIZ in every book from October/November 1976 on. So it can't even be argued that KRIZ went out as #1 in its format.

Urban legend, which I bought until five minutes ago.

Part of the change from KRIZ was KRUX going to what we'd call Hot AC later. Lots of gold using Burkhart. And then they went all news with NBC. Helped KRIZ peak briefly, but then...

Most of the change was KUPD adding a full power simulcast on FM and essentially "moving to FM". I was listening the day it happened as I built a brick and mortar barbecue in the yard, and knew it was over for KRIZ... which with 1 kw was not a great signal where I lived.

 

[davideduardo]

...which leads to the question: If the FCC hadn't f**ed up AM Stereo and had type-approved one system in, say, 1976...could they have actually survived?

But in 1976, four of the five systems that applied for approval were still in development. It was not until several years later that the FCC evaluated and approved a system. But, instantly, Leonard Kahn, sued everyone and everything to block it for nearly five more years. By that time, the train had left the station.

If anyone screwed up AM stereo, it was Kahn. And, thus, to me Kahn and Sarnoff are the two evil villains of broadcasting.

 

[radiofan2023]

But, instantly, Leonard Kahn, sued everyone and everything to block it for nearly five more years. By that time, the train had left the station.

If anyone screwed up AM stereo, it was Kahn. And, thus, to me Kahn and Sarnoff are the two evil villains of broadcasting.

In honor of Star Trek Day, it sounds like they felt the wrath of

 

[ted chittenden]

That's what they said...but it's not true.

So here are the facts:

Phoenix at the time was a two-book-per-year market. Spring (April/May) and Fall (October/November):

KRIZ' last book (April/May 1978) was a 3.0, a tie for 11th place with KOPA AM/FM.

KRIZ' last #1 book was three years before its format change, April/May 1975, when it had a 9.3.

But that didn't last---it dumped nearly half that number, falling to a 4.9 in the fall. The benefactor was KUPD, which was Top 40 at the time and beat KRIZ in every book from October/November 1976 on. So it can't even be argued that KRIZ went out as #1 in its format.

Urban legend, which I bought until five minutes ago.

Michael:
First, thanks for clearing that up.

Second, I'm guessing from both yours and @davideduardo's comments that KBBC-FM, though it was the only FM-only top 40 outlet at the time in Phoenix, was never a factor in the ratings between the fall of 1974 and the fall of 1976 when it ran the format.

 

[michael hagerty]

Michael:
First, thanks for clearing that up.

Second, I'm guessing from both yours and @davideduardo's comments that KBBC-FM, though it was the only FM-only top 40 outlet at the time in Phoenix, was never a factor in the ratings between the fall of 1974 and the fall of 1976 when it ran the format.

Since we were discussing AMs, I didn't include it, but KBBC's number's weren't bad during that period. The numbers at worldradiohistory-dot-com only go back to spring of '75:

April/May '75:

KRIZ: 9.3
KBBC: 4.8
KRUX: 2.8 (Went all-news June 15)
KUPD: 1.4

October/November '75:

KRIZ: 4.9
KUPD: 4.0
KBBC: 3.7

April/May '76:

KBBC: 5.4
KRIZ: 4.0
KUPD: 3.1

October/November '76

KUPD: 7.9
KBBC: 6.1
KRIZ: 4.7

 

[davideduardo]

Second, I'm guessing from both yours and @davideduardo's comments that KBBC-FM, though it was the only FM-only top 40 outlet at the time in Phoenix, was never a factor in the ratings between the fall of 1974 and the fall of 1976 when it ran the format.

It did not start strong, and sounded a bit "small market".

After its first book, a PD at another PHX top 40 took advantage of the fact that the PD had come from someplace like Topeka or Wichita or the like. The station had its own elevator to its floor, and they put a sheep in a dress with a big greeting card with a "cupid's arrow" on it (get it?) around its neck in on the first floor and pushed "up". Sheep don't apparently like elevators, so when it opened in the WBBC lobby, it ran out, wildly. Sheep seem to poop when scared, so it jumped over sales pit desks and left droppings all over.

There was considerable damage and disruption, and the effect was to give the KBBC folks a greater competitive attitude from what I was told.

 

[radiofan2023]

It did not start strong, and sounded a bit "small market".

After its first book, a PD at another PHX top 40 took advantage of the fact that the PD had come from someplace like Topeka or Wichita or the like. The station had its own elevator to its floor, and they put a sheep in a dress with a big greeting card with a "cupid's arrow" on it (get it?) around its neck in on the first floor and pushed "up". Sheep don't apparently like elevators, so when it opened in the WBBC lobby, it ran out, wildly. Sheep seem to poop when scared, so it jumped over sales pit desks and left droppings all over.

There was considerable damage and disruption, and the effect was to give the KBBC folks a greater competitive attitude from what I was told.

Sounds like a baaad time!

 

[K.M. Richards]

Sounds like a baaad time!

Like your baaad jokes? 😜

 

[radiofan2023]

Like your baaad jokes? 😜

Ewe got me!

 

[CTListener]

This is shear torture. Wool you just stop?

 

[ted chittenden]

It did not start strong, and sounded a bit "small market".

After its first book, a PD at another PHX top 40 took advantage of the fact that the PD had come from someplace like Topeka or Wichita or the like. The station had its own elevator to its floor, and they put a sheep in a dress with a big greeting card with a "cupid's arrow" on it (get it?) around its neck in on the first floor and pushed "up". Sheep don't apparently like elevators, so when it opened in the WBBC lobby, it ran out, wildly. Sheep seem to poop when scared, so it jumped over sales pit desks and left droppings all over.

There was considerable damage and disruption, and the effect was to give the KBBC folks a greater competitive attitude from what I was told.

I liked KBBC-FM, mainly because it would play songs in Billboard's top 40 other Phoenix outlets wouldn't touch, including Roxy Music's "Love Is the Drug,", Natalie Cole's "Inseparable,", and The Commodores, "Sweet Love." And while it didn't play The Manhattans' "Kiss and Say Goodbye," (outside of AT40 which it carried between 1975 and 1976), I, as someone who was listening to the radio a lot, found *that* to be very refreshing.

Not baaahd for a radio station that had to deal with sheep s**t sent by a competitor with an arrow to grind.

 

[Mark Roberts]

...which leads to the question: If the FCC hadn't f**ed up AM Stereo and had type-approved one system in, say, 1976...could they have actually survived?

Stereo was only part of the equation. Receiver bandwidth was the other. The typical AM consumer radio of the 1960s had a bandwidth of about 4 kHz and then gently rolled off. The result sounded fairly natural, if a bit muddy, though definitely not as crisp as FM. Filters became sharper in the 1970s. Even with about the same 4 kHz roll-off, the declining part of the response curve was sharper, resulting in a less natural sound. Many of the AM-stereo-capable radios of the 1980s did have wider bandwidths. The Sony SRF-A100 was, in the wideband position, flat past 10 kHz. It sounded very good even in mono. This was before the NRSC standard mandated a frequency-response cutoff at 10 kHz. Other radios automatically opened up their bandwidth when stereo was selected or detected. But this also made them more prone to interference from adjacent stations.

The new generation of DSP-based radios often have selectable AM audio bandwidths, which can make the stations sound better, but they generally stop between 6 and 9 kHz, and there's the NRSC cutoff to deal with. For the most part, it seems to be hobbyists and maybe frequent travelers who are buying those radios; they're not a mass-market phenomenon. Aside from that, how many people want to be fiddling with switches to make a station sound better? That was the downfall of the Sony multi-system receivers. The reality was that you would get stereo regardless of whether the Kahn system or other systems were selected, but the switch was just another thing to deal with, and there was no clear indication of stereo reception compared to FM, where there usually was some kind of visual indicator of stereo reception.

Bottom line is that there are a lot of "what-ifs" wrapped up in that question. Probably the simplest conclusion to reach is that a better rollout of AM stereo would have delayed the decline of AM radio by up to a decade, but it still would have happened.

 

[CentralFL]

AM music stations are long gone in countries that did implement an AM stereo standard.

But maybe it would have bought a few more years.

 

[kevtronics]

Aside from that, how many people want to be fiddling with switches to make a station sound better? That was the downfall of the Sony multi-system receivers.

Sony developed a chip to automatically detect and switch between the various AM Stereo systems, but thanks to another patent dispute lawsuit (from Motorola this time, not Kahn), it was blocked from being sold in the USA, so the auto-switching Sony receivers ended up being sold in Canada and Australia.

Realistically, the Motorola, Harris, and Magnavox systems were all similar enough that one decoder design could receive all three with no more than 5% distortion, which was considered acceptable in the analog era. (Vinyl records have about 8% distortion at the inner grooves.) Receiving Kahn required an additional phase shifter chip.

 

[Mark Roberts]

Just for avoidance of doubt, my point was primarily about AM receiver audio bandwidth and only secondarily about AM stereo.

 

[davideduardo]

Just for avoidance of doubt, my point was primarily about AM receiver audio bandwidth and only secondarily about AM stereo.

The real core issue of the decline in AM is mostly based on the horrible coverage of growing post-WW II market areas by AMs licensed in the 30's which could not cover their whole market.

Example: Cleveland, a Top 10 market in the 50's, has only one AM that comes close to covering the whole metro survey area. But essentially all the Class B FMs cover it completely.

There are very few major markets that have more than two or three AM signals that cover the whole metro area day and night. Some have none. And, today, with so much man-made AM noise from wall warts and all kinds of dimmers and LED bulbs and the like, in many homes and apartment buildings listening to AM is impossible.