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Toyotas Getting HD et al.

Savage said:
"The beauty of" this development is best manifested when people aren't even aware of it?? :eek:

When you heard assertions like "HD will have succeeded when it's simply imposed on listeners," we've stepped through the IBOC looking glass.

Getting OEM HD Radios into new cars has been the goal all along. That's the holy grail. With Ford and Toyota officially on board, and others following closely behind, HD Radio is about to become ubiquitous. It's being "imposed" on listeners the same way FM was in car radios, then digital tuning.
 
Well, I disagree that Ford and Toyota are "officially on board." Despite a lot of umlaut here and elsewhere about Ford's commitment to HD, its IBOC offerings are tenuous and sparse at best - after four years of being "on board."

So, where we are today is: the public has overwhelmingly rejected HD Radio as unwanted and unneeded. 84% of FM stations do not broadcast in HD and 99% of AMs don't, with an even tinier percentage at night. The sale of consumer HD radios has essentially stopped. So now that the system has been an abject failure, you advocate forcing it on consumers??

Sounds just like mandatory single-payer national healthcare, another cram-down imposed by elites. As poll after survey showed Americans overwhelmingly rejected the plan, it was shoved through Congress over the objections of the vast majority of the electorate. If politics cause the plan to fail in adoption or it's repealed, the elites will blithely forcibly impose it through administrative action by unelected Washington czars.

HD Radio: an attempt at another destructive, stupid cram-down by self-anointed elites. Nice!
 
Be careful what you wish for, gooroo. I would assert that if indeed HD were to become "ubiquitous" in car radios, people will simply listen to radio in the car....less.

They won't put up with all the reception issues. The radio will just become a latter-day echo of Mercury's Seat-O-Matic, a once-glitzy gimmick perched unused in the dash, as former radio listeners avail themselves of stable, high-quality entertainment from the internet and mp3s. "I never listen to the radio any more," they'll say. "It cuts in and out and there's all that static. I get what I need on the web."

Is that your vision for the future?? Hope you've picked out an alternate career.
 
Savage said:
Well, I disagree that Ford and Toyota are "officially on board." Despite a lot of umlaut here and elsewhere about Ford's commitment to HD, its IBOC offerings are tenuous and sparse at best - after four years of being "on board."

And, as has often been pointed out, four years is about how long it takes automakers to move a new feature into production.

Most of Ford's 2011 models have HD Radio as standard equipment. In fact, I'm not aware of any that don't. If you're buying a Ford this year, it will most likely come equipped with HD Radio.

Savage said:
So, where we are today is: the public has overwhelmingly rejected HD Radio as unwanted and unneeded. 84% of FM stations do not broadcast in HD and 99% of AMs don't, with an even tinier percentage at night. The sale of consumer HD radios has essentially stopped. So now that the system has been an abject failure, you advocate forcing it on consumers??

The public has rejected all stand-alone radio products as unwanted and unneeded. The selection of Walkman type radios at Best Buy is astonishingly small compared to what it was 10 years ago. The boombox aisle has completely disappeared.

Assuming your numbers are correct, the 16% of FM stations broadcasting HD are where the people are. I'm not surprised that KNEL in Brady, Texas, which the last time I drove through Brady was after many years STILL broadcasting using an exciter that injected a high pitched squeal into the audio hasn't jumped on the HD bandwagon as they've yet to jump on the fix your damn exciter bandwagon.

Virtually every FM in the top 20 markets is broadcasting HD.

Saying this is "forcing" HD Radios on consumers is disingenuous. Aside from the small minority here, most people would gladly accept the new stations, provided they're not having to pay extra to receive them. This is no different than FM tuners being "forced" on new car buyers in the 80s.

Savage said:
Sounds just like mandatory single-payer national healthcare, another cram-down imposed by elites. As poll after survey showed Americans overwhelmingly rejected the plan, it was shoved through Congress over the objections of the vast majority of the electorate. If politics cause the plan to fail in adoption or it's repealed, the elites will blithely forcibly impose it through administrative action by unelected Washington czars.

HD Radio: an attempt at another destructive, stupid cram-down by self-anointed elites. Nice!

What a ridiculous analogy. There are significant real world problems with the healthcare plan. There's plenty to object to there. Nobody is going to object to getting a free upgrade to their car radio so they can receive more stations. Many people might not really care one way or another, but they wouldn't object to it.
 
Savage said:
Be careful what you wish for, gooroo. I would assert that if indeed HD were to become "ubiquitous" in car radios, people will simply listen to radio in the car....less.

They won't put up with all the reception issues. The radio will just become a latter-day echo of Mercury's Seat-O-Matic, a once-glitzy gimmick perched unused in the dash, as former radio listeners avail themselves of stable, high-quality entertainment from the internet and mp3s. "I never listen to the radio any more," they'll say. "It cuts in and out and there's all that static. I get what I need on the web."

Is that your vision for the future?? Hope you've picked out an alternate career.

People are abandoning AM radio anyway. You have to really, really want the content these days to put up with the noise, even on 50kW stations. Driving beside power lines, my local Rush and Hannity affiliate goes away. At stoplights equipped with LED traffic lights, it's the same thing. With computers and devices containing microprocessors everywhere now, it's next door to impossible to listen to AM in an office environment. CFL light bulbs certainly aren't helping with home reception.

Where can you listen to AM radio with clarity? At least in my town, on the HD3 channels of sister FMs.
 
I was looking to see if there was any update on HD from the CES. I didn't find any, but I saw this:

http://www.mydigitalpublication.com/display_article.php?id=461624

From last July, but the info is very relevant. The article states, quite eloquently, how listeners simply quit listening to the radio when they come across HD noise. Think about it. The two stations in that article are a little over 60 miles from each other. With WKLB running elevated HD that's just like having two allocations on 102.7 - one with 2KW and one with 1.4 KW. Even without elevated power, WKLB would be running 140 watts from 1000 ft. HAAT. Consider what would happen if someone wanted to establish a co-channel 100-watt LPFM station 25 miles away from an established class-A broadcaster. Everyone would be up in arms, and rightly so. Yet the interference from this HD signal is similar, considering their antenna height.

What's wrong with this picture?

Dave B.
 
Savage said:
"I never listen to the radio any more," they'll say. "It cuts in and out and there's all that static. I get what I need on the web."

Duhpotatoes, people say that about regular radio now.

If you want to say that HD is a lateral move in that respect, fine. It's true. If you want to say that the subchannels aren't providing anything useful to attract those people back to radio, fine. That's also true. But to act like analog FM and AM don't cut in and out and don't have static is just asinine. Most listeners tune in despite the static, especially if it's something they want to hear. I agree listening through a jarring out of sync "blend" from digital to analog to digital ad nauseum is a horrible thing, which is why I advocate an off switch for those stations who can not or will not fix their problems.

I don't understand why we can't get past this notion that if it won't work a class A in Bumpass, New Hampshire, it won't work at all. It's a useful addition in select markets where there isn't enough dial space for additional stations. It's a useful addition to selected NPR and public radio affiliates who wish to offer more choice for their donors. It's a useful addition in many medium markets in the midwest and south where the sound quality improvements are noticeable. But because it's NOT a solution in the crowded New England dials or in parts of California we're all to scrap this scheme? I don't think so.

I don't like that the whole system went off hack cocked with low powers and poor coverage. I don't like how the subchannel formats are the neglected stepchildren that never get enough attention. And I don't like that the delay issue wasn't better dealt with before rolling out this system. But it's all radio has as far as expanding horizons without going to web-based delivery, and stations and companies should at least be trying to make the most of it.

radiogooroo said:
The public has rejected all stand-alone radio products as unwanted and unneeded. The selection of Walkman type radios at Best Buy is astonishingly small compared to what it was 10 years ago. The boombox aisle has completely disappeared.

You know what's odd about that? Most of the radio I hear in public, whether it be at little stores in strip malls or at gyms or anywhere public music is desired, is that the sound is coming from a boombox. Everyone seems to have one (somewhere, my JVC Kaboom in overtly gay pink is sitting in a storage shed, ready to thump again when needed) but no one's really making them anymore.

radiogooroo said:
People are abandoning AM radio anyway. You have to really, really want the content these days to put up with the noise, even on 50kW stations. Driving beside power lines, my local Rush and Hannity affiliate goes away. At stoplights equipped with LED traffic lights, it's the same thing. With computers and devices containing microprocessors everywhere now, it's next door to impossible to listen to AM in an office environment. CFL light bulbs certainly aren't helping with home reception.

Where can you listen to AM radio with clarity? At least in my town, on the HD3 channels of sister FMs.

The rural midwest. Parts of the south. That's all I can think of. 8)

Our Rush/Hannity talker is a poor thing. 1 kW right on the gulf coast. It has no chance of overcoming daytime interference in its licensed market, much less of making it anywhere at night thanks to foreign interference. But it sounds very good on HD-2. It goes from about 15 miles of solid daytime coverage and 2-5 miles of nighttime coverage to a good 50 miles+ of spotty HD coverage.
 
DaveBayArea said:
What's wrong with this picture?

The real issue is the FCC's lack of interest in solving these issues. They act like they don't care or are being paid off, which is scummy.

I've long said that if the sidebands are causing undue interference to another station inside that station's protected contour, the HD should be reduced or discontinued.
 
Zach said:
DaveBayArea said:
What's wrong with this picture?

The real issue is the FCC's lack of interest in solving these issues. They act like they don't care or are being paid off, which is scummy.

I've long said that if the sidebands are causing undue interference to another station inside that station's protected contour, the HD should be reduced or discontinued.

Yup, they're letting this junk take precedence over everything, wonder if there's a few bucks changing hands anywhere?
 
Don't worry, give the FCC several years and they will solve* everything. I am going to guess that by 2020, the FCC will announce a HD only switchover date, even if HD radio fails in the minds of the consumers. In my opinion we are already on the way to this.
 
Casey said:
Don't worry, give the FCC several years and they will solve* everything. I am going to guess that by 2020, the FCC will announce a HD only switchover date, even if HD radio fails in the minds of the consumers. In my opinion we are already on the way to this.

Casey, the FCC can do no such thing as long as Ibiquity remains a proprietary system. Forcing all FM's to become Ibiquity would not only bankrupt many if not most of them, but it would also violate anti-trust laws.
 
radiogooroo said:
Saying this is "forcing" HD Radios on consumers is disingenuous. Aside from the small minority here, most people would gladly accept the new stations, provided they're not having to pay extra to receive them. This is no different than FM tuners being "forced" on new car buyers in the 80s.

The difference is that there had been a groundswell of people already listening to and clamoring for FM in cars during that period because of the new and different content. I put many aftermarket FM and cassette players into my cars during this period just to hear certain FM stations. If people are buying new Fords with HD I wonder how many know it and more importantly I wonder how many of the small percentage who know it actually care except that their radio in the car doesn't work as well as the old ones. I also wonder how many of the large percentage who don't know think their radios don't work as well as the old ones did. Out of those groups I wonder how many just blame radio itself and think IT doesn't work as well as it did?
 
KB1OKL said:
The difference is that there had been a groundswell of people already listening to and clamoring for FM in cars during that period because of the new and different content. I put many aftermarket FM and cassette players into my cars during this period just to hear certain FM stations.

Well, that was then and this is now. People don't clamor for anything electronic these days unless it has an Apple logo on it. Well over 200 million Americans still use radio though, and I'd be willing to bet many of them would like to have some new choices.

KB1OKL said:
If people are buying new Fords with HD I wonder how many know it and more importantly I wonder how many of the small percentage who know it actually care except that their radio in the car doesn't work as well as the old ones. I also wonder how many of the large percentage who don't know think their radios don't work as well as the old ones did. Out of those groups I wonder how many just blame radio itself and think IT doesn't work as well as it did?

The Ford radios are made by Sony, the same people that make the HD component tuner that the DX community raves about. Do you really think they're going to be thinking their radios don't work as well with a quality Sony HD tuner in them?
 
RadeoEngineer said:
Casey said:
Don't worry, give the FCC several years and they will solve* everything. I am going to guess that by 2020, the FCC will announce a HD only switchover date, even if HD radio fails in the minds of the consumers. In my opinion we are already on the way to this.

Casey, the FCC can do no such thing as long as Ibiquity remains a proprietary system. Forcing all FM's to become Ibiquity would not only bankrupt many if not most of them, but it would also violate anti-trust laws.

I have my doubts on if HD radio will remain in it's current form. If Ibiquity changes their licensing, I can easily see it becoming a mandated standard. A mandated switch over to digital, whether is be HD radio, FMeXtra or even DRM, is quite possible. If not mandated, I can see all major broadcasting corporations agreeing to turn off analog at one time if the FCC allows. Once digital radio reaches a high penetration, I think they will allow.

I do believe DRM will play a part in the future as well. Particularly on the AM band, where it is planning to be rolled out in many other countries around the world. The FCC likely has or will accept the standard because of the growing use for it globally on Shortwave.
 
Casey said:
I have my doubts on if HD radio will remain in it's current form. If Ibiquity changes their licensing, I can easily see it becoming a mandated standard. A mandated switch over to digital, whether is be HD radio, FMeXtra or even DRM, is quite possible. If not mandated, I can see all major broadcasting corporations agreeing to turn off analog at one time if the FCC allows. Once digital radio reaches a high penetration, I think they will allow.

You're talking about the same government that requires people to pay into the proprietary Social Security system, and will soon require everyone to buy healthcare. More to the point, they'll require employers to provide a certain standard of healthcare or pay stiff fines.

A few years ago, the FCC mandated that all TVs sold in the USA must include a digital tuner. That may not be a proprietary standard, but it was still a mandate. Given the state of patent law in this country, I'm sure certain manufacturers reached ways of implementing the open standard first and the other manufacturers pay licensing fees to them.

Anything is possible.
 
Zach said:
Management is gonna have to come off some money and the engineers are gonna have to start giving a damn about how their subchannels sound.

Please go easy on the station-level engineers who didn't have a say in any of this.

Let's face reality -- much of the older IBOC hardware is a PITA to keep running, and even the new stuff has problems. When this transmitting equipment was purchased, the accountants rightly expected its service life to exceed 20 years -- but it's already obsolete, even though it hasn't generated any ROI. One engineer's recent experience is summarized here, starting on page 11 ("Clashing Realities"):

http://www.crawfordbroadcasting.com/~cbc/Local_Oscillator/January 2011 Local Oscillator.pdf
 
Belated responses: Zach, I'm not arguing that analog AM and FM don't ever have reception issues. Of course that's not true. The old saw applies: I don't care if you're 50kw NDA on AM with a low dial position or 100kw 2000'AAT (or even greater with grandfathered authorizations) on FM - "every station has a 'signal problem' SOMEwhere."

It's a matter of degree. AM and FM for the most part - at least pre-HD - provided coverage which was found generally acceptable by the general public. This is not consistently the case with HD digital. And as far as the recent Greek Chorus (mostly among the pro-HD contingent) rushing to deliver eulogies for AM, the greatest recent contributor to bad audio and unacceptable noise on AM has been HD Radio. The narrow bandwidth to force the COFDM through the common point and the roaring sideband QRM are ruining the last vestiges of acceptable listening, particularly at night. Ironic, when you note how stubbornly HD has been flogged as a solution for the band's problems.

gooroo, you're an engineer who strongly believes in HD. I get it. All I'm gonna say is, you (and others here) should visit markramsey.com and read his commentary on "the most important takeaway for broadcasters from CES." Truer words were never posted.....excellent.
 
Like it or not, HD is legal in the USA, on the air, and starting to show up in automotive receivers.

Many of the private and public broadcast corporations who have pushed the system from inception through implementation are also the owners of the choicest radio properties in the largest markets in the country. They have grubstaked their claim on the digital media gold field with a huge political and capital investment in IBOC technology, and this ground is not going to be abandoned anytime soon.

Since the FCC has bigger fish to fry these days, any further improvements or eliminations in the American system will be most likely be made in the marketplace.

Most new receivers are software-based, so there is no reason why other systems like FMeXtra or DRM could not be incorporated as optional transmission methods. Anybody who would prefer one of these alternatives had better get to work, though. There are a lot of manufacturers and bureaucrats out there who must be wined and dined. That's how iBiquity did it.

Given the perilous state of most economies, soon it will be last call for any new additions to the digital broadcast menu. Declining profit margins and disposable income will force manufacturers and audiences to make their final choices about which system icons will be appearing on the LCD displays of the next generation of receivers.

Along with "Wi-Fi", you'll see "HD". Maybe the "Sirius" puppy. Good old analog will be there too, but without an icon.
 
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