Translator question

[rockandroll]

One we were talking about over lunch.... could a translator choose and Internet only radio station as it's source of audio and not your typical OTR FM? ??? The app states "radio station for rebroadcast", but when the rules were written that choice was just OTA. Thanks for your input

 

[rcs]

The fact that until recently only FM stations could be rebroacast, and even now special permission is required for a translator to carry an (OTA) AM station should give you an idea to the answer. There are even limitations on how some translators can receive their "FM" input signals (there are several factors involved with this).

So the answer is no, an internet-only station cannot be rebroadcast by an FM translator in the US.

 

[Sgeirk]

What about HD2/3 programming?

 

[John-Summers]

What about HD2/3 programming?

Check the Central PA board for an answer on that question. It's being done in Harrisburg.

 

[NHRadio]

As I understand the Rules, a translator (a commercial one, anyway) is limited to receiving its input signal via off-air pickup only. Since HD2/3 channels are receivable via antenna it should be legally doable....and a great idea to expose listeners to that kind of content.
The FCC just needs to be notified the translator will be using W???-HD2 as its primary.

 

[ChiefEngineer]

This is a good question.

HD and translator use were never discussed. IT DIDN"T EXIST, when the Rules were made.

WFIU is using HD to rebroadcast it's signal on stations in Indiana without a waiver. IT IS an over the air service so this would seem to make it okay however. Digital Extra? SCA? Both are over the air?

From a common sense POV over the air IS over the air. All would seem to qualify.

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

Crown/Fanfare are making translator systems now that are built specifically to re-transmit the HD stuff along with the analog. I'm quite sure it will work with FMExtra also. I wouldn't be too supprised if their normal translators would be able to pass the FMExtra signal as it's just a subcarrier in reality.

 

[Chuck]

Crown/Fanfare are making translator systems now that are built specifically to re-transmit the HD stuff along with the analog. I'm quite sure it will work with FMExtra also. I wouldn't be too supprised if their normal translators would be able to pass the FMExtra signal as it's just a subcarrier in reality.

Most normal translators should, at least as long as they are passing through a baseband signal and not demodulating to audio and then re-modulating it using a different stereo generator. I know for a fact they will pass RDS if you go from the MPX output of the tuner to the MPX input of the transmitter. There is no reason why FMExtra couldn’t go along for the ride, since it is just a subcarrier.

 

[K6JHU]

Let me ask this one. An AM station can be carried on an HD channel without a waiver from the FCC. The indication on this board is that a translator can carry and HD FM signal without a waiver. So does that mean an AM station can get on a translator without too much paperwork if they go through an affilitated HD signal first?

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

If they're on an HD2 or HD3 of an FM station then yes. I see no reason you couldn't.

 

[NHRadio]

I agree with OKC...if the AM audio is also carried on one of the FM HD channels you should be covered as you're just repeating WXXX-HD2/3 via off-air pickup.
Methinks we may have found a loophole in the translator rules. In practice getting the waiver to carry the AM on the translator seems easier, faster, and cheaper.

Let me ask this one. An AM station can be carried on an HD channel without a waiver from the FCC. The indication on this board is that a translator can carry and HD FM signal without a waiver. So does that mean an AM station can get on a translator without too much paperwork if they go through an affilitated HD signal first?

 

[TomT]

I think if the Media Bureau folks ever really looked at this issue, they would find that:

A. A translator can rebroadcast the off-air signal of the primary station, including the main channel, stereo subcarrier and any other subcarrier or digital information carried by the primary station SO LONG AS IT DOES NOT MODIFY THIS SIGNAL.

B. A translator can be used, with an STA and waiver, to rebroadcast the analog signal of an AM station. Assuming the translator is close enough to the AM station to receive the STA, the AM audio could then be fed by various methods; equalized land line, STL, digital land line, etc., including the demodulated signal of an "HD-2" feed on a companion FM station (or a digital SCA, e.g.--FM-X)

C. If the translator is eligible to be fed by alternative means, the main channel stereo audio, any subcarriers, and any digital information of the primary FM station could be fed by alternative means (e.g., an STL,) and reconstituted at the translator site. Kind of the expensive way of doing things, but it would seem to fit in the rules.

D. A translator can not be used to rebroadcast a subsidiary or second channel digital signal where that signal is demodulated, then remodulated on the main channel of the translator as an analog signal.

So, I would conclude the rebroadcast of an "HD-2" signal on the main carrier of the translator as an analog FM signal would run afoul of the translator rules, with the narrow exception of where this digital signal is used to relay the analog signal of another station to a qualifying translator.

 

[NHRadio]

Tom, a well thought out post. However I just got through reading Part 74 and was unable to find the rule you cited below. Maybe I missed it. Do you know what section it's in? Thanks.

D. A translator can not be used to rebroadcast a subsidiary or second channel digital signal where that signal is demodulated, then remodulated on the main channel of the translator as an analog signal.

So, I would conclude the rebroadcast of an "HD-2" signal on the main carrier of the translator as an analog FM signal would run afoul of the translator rules, with the narrow exception of where this digital signal is used to relay the analog signal of another station to a qualifying translator.

 

[ChiefEngineer]

This WAS the old rule. Many stations here in Indiana are using HD2 to originate new programming fed to translators.

Using this scenario an AM or anything else being "primary" programming on an HD channel, SCA, FM Extra, or otherwise can be carried?

FM Extra is an SCA service as they indicate. This keeps the service from being re approved by anyone.

The rules did not comprehend this translator purpose and my question still is, what can be done legally despite what people are doing in practice.

And to make sure no one is confused as in earlier posts,

I am not indicating translate as the Fanfare receivers pass Baseband, HD 1,2, etc. This is a seamless pass through.

MY question is inversion of baseband and HD 1,2

 

[TomT]

Look at the definitions section as to what a translator is: (74.1202)

"A station in the broadcasting service operated for the purpose of retransmitting the signals of an FM radio broadcast station or another FM broadcast translator station without significantly altering any characteristics of the incoming signal other than its frequency and amplitude, in order to provide FM broadcast service to the
general public."

If you STL your composite stereo signal to your translator, then feed it into an exciter, you are not altering the characteristics of the broadcast signal other than frequency and amplitude. That is, KXXX operates on Ch. 222A with 6 kw, K227zz operates on ch. 227 with ten watts, same broadcast signal as on the primary station, whether fed off-air, or via STL.

If you air KXXX HD-2's audio on K227zz analog FM signal,(via an STL feed, for example, of the audio on the HD sub-channel) you have altered the characteristics of the incoming signal, have you not?

 

[ChiefEngineer]

That IS the question, what is altering?

The old school thought was that if the entire signals (baseband, stereo pilot, and scas) did not pass through same level and quality as before this was altering.

The rule is now is revised to mean if the original program feed (mono/stereo/quad/etc) exists and is "translated" then this is fine.

If the sca/hd/etc is sent to the main then is this simply translating?

AM translators now have more coverage because of high processing. Most are using omnias in stereo. The AM signal being translated isn't stereo to start with. The stations have installed stereo consoles and stereo processors with stereo generators.

I know that the rules are always being re written by those who want to do something not originally intended, or even possible.

THis is practice now, any Comisssion responses?

 

[radiode]

The reply I got from the Comission Staff Re: Using SCA's as input signals on Translators:

"SCAs can NOT be retransmitted. Only the Analog or Digital streams that can be received on widely-available consumer radios." So FM Extra is out...

 

[ChiefEngineer]

There is a filing being presented now that makes the case for SCA Digital.

SCA Analog is currently not an option. Extra in the Hybrid mode can be received on an HD radio however.

 

[radiode]

"There is a filing being presented now that makes the case for SCA Digital."
Great! By whom, and where can I find a copy? If I agree with the premise and argument, I might want to file supporting comments.

"Extra in the Hybrid mode can be received on an HD radio however."
Really? Please name a currently available, (through normal commercial channels), HD receiver that will demodulate an SCA, analog or digital, out of the box, for the average consumer. (I.e., without after-market modifications.)

Understand that I'm not trying to start an argument. I'd really like further hard information so I can decide if it's worth our time and money to try to make a case to the Staff. (And incidentally save my Boss most of the $60k cost of converting to HD. (STL,TX, combiner and antenna are HD-ready.)

Please note the way that the Staff worded their reply in my original post. (We were taking a hard look at FM Extra...) Their reply banned SCA's as translator input signals. Period.

I'm as willing as anyone to ask for a waiver, but I'd like some chance of success before tilting at the windmill...

 

[Chuck]

"There is a filing being presented now that makes the case for SCA Digital."
Great! By whom, and where can I find a copy? If I agree with the premise and argument, I might want to file supporting comments.

"Extra in the Hybrid mode can be received on an HD radio however."
Really? Please name a currently available, (through normal commercial channels), HD receiver that will demodulate an SCA, analog or digital, out of the box, for the average consumer. (I.e., without after-market modifications.)

Understand that I'm not trying to start an argument. I'd really like further hard information so I can decide if it's worth our time and money to try to make a case to the Staff. (And incidentally save my Boss most of the $60k cost of converting to HD. (STL,TX, combiner and antenna are HD-ready.)

Hmmm.... The public can buy an Aruba radio to receive FMeXtra. They are $299. Not exactly cheap, but they are available. You won't find them at Best Buy or Walmart, but there was a time when you couldn't find a HD capable radio at either of those stores either.

Please note the way that the Staff worded their reply in my original post. (We were taking a hard look at FM Extra...) Their reply banned SCA's as translator input signals. Period.

I'm as willing as anyone to ask for a waiver, but I'd like some chance of success before tilting at the windmill...

Hmmm... The public can purchase a radio that receives FMextra. It's called the Aruba. About $300. Not cheap, but it is available from a few suppliers. The station could even buy them in bulk and sell them to make them locally available. That's not the same thing as finding them at Walmart or Best Buy, but not that long ago, you couldn't find a HD radio at those stores either.