Tremendous Salt Water Propagation for AM

[gar hi]

Gar, sorry you didn't hear anything from Texas. I plan to go down to Galveston either tomorrow or Thursday to DX and hope to get something. I just have to figure out the best place to go.

Hey, I can't wait to hear what you got! You probably know already but 620 WDAE, 970 WFLA, and 1380 radio Disney are the best ones to try for from my area. Another little problem I had near the beach was the noise made by the wind because I originally planned to do most of the DXing and capture the video on my Walkman because I could choose directions to aim it but the strong wind really got in the way of really hearing anything that well.

Completely believable. I had WCBS absolutely reliably any time of the day or time of year in Daytona Beach Shores, FL, on the intercoastal waterway, one block from the beach. Receiver was a stock GE Superadio 2 - no added antenna.

Oh, I believe you and that's why I was kind of surprised I wasn't picking up anything from Houston. I thought it would be almost a given also considering the daytime reports from Bermuda of the NYC stations and that's about the same distance.

 

[radioman148]

Someone also recently made a claim of getting WCBS during the mid day on the shore of Puerto Rico with a special antenna in the early 60s. I don't recall if the time of year was mentioned or not.

This seems more believable to me. Not having an atlas in front of me, to the best of my memory there is no land between New York and Puerto Rico.
Gar, sorry you didn't hear anything from Texas. I plan to go down to Galveston either tomorrow or Thursday to DX and hope to get something. I just have to figure out the best place to go.

Hope you get right on the beach at Galveston and there are no static crashes.

 

[nd2023]

I got WCBS 880 on Miami Beach around 2 or 3 in the afternoon in the middle of January last year. So it was hours before NYC sunset. I was using an Eton E100 radio. I noticed that WCBS disappeared when I was over 50 feet from the ocean. The WCBS signal traveled through Queens and a few miles of the Outer Banks, otherwise it was all water. It was the only NYC station I got.

 

[radioman148]

I got WCBS 880 on Miami Beach around 2 or 3 in the afternoon in the middle of January last year. So it was hours before NYC sunset. I was using an Eton E100 radio. I noticed that WCBS disappeared when I was over 50 feet from the ocean. The WCBS signal traveled through Queens and a few miles of the Outer Banks, otherwise it was all water. It was the only NYC station I got.

Well around 3PM in January it's possible under certain circumstances that a skywave could've formed.
My next question would be has anyone else on Miami Beach ever received WCBS during mid day?

 

[BRNout]

Yes, theoretically you can get skywave anytime during the day in December/January. Although Miami Beach is a bit far south for that, I would imagine that it can still happen. Honestly, I have a hard time believing that WCBS traveled that far via groundwave with enough signal to be picked up on a portable radio. The mathematical model provided above serves to bolster my opinion with some raw numbers.

A total distance of 1,100 miles is fairly impressive for skywave, you know. At least on a portable radio. Particularly when you consider all of the potential interference from other stations on the same frequency, from other stations on 870 and 890, the ubiquitous IBOC menace, and general ambient electrical interference.

 

[radioman148]

Yes, theoretically you can get skywave anytime during the day in December/January. Although Miami Beach is a bit far south for that, I would imagine that it can still happen. Honestly, I have a hard time believing that WCBS traveled that far via groundwave with enough signal to be picked up on a portable radio. The mathematical model provided above serves to bolster my opinion with some raw numbers.

A total distance of 1,100 miles is fairly impressive for skywave, you know. At least on a portable radio. Particularly when you consider all of the potential interference from other stations on the same frequency, from other stations on 870 and 890, the ubiquitous IBOC menace, and general ambient electrical interference.

In the 80s I heard WLS in Miami Beach at 4PM and that wasn't over water so at that time of the year on the right day you can have a formation of a skywave.

 

[vibe]

I went on the radio locator.com website for Key West FL. It was indicated that the stations in Cancun and Cozumel (396 AND 411mi) on 860 and 1050 are faintly receiveble in the day. If those stations are indeed faint with a complete salt water path, then getting TX from the mid Gulf Coast of Fla during midday is really difficult. The distance must be at least twice that long. But if those signals from Mexico in Key west are actually stronger....
So what is the max? (under normal conditions on a good to very good AM radio. Me thinks about 600 mi.

 

[BobOnTheJob]

I went on the radio locator.com website for Key West FL. It was indicated that the stations in Cancun and Cozumel (396 AND 411mi) on 860 and 1050 are faintly receiveble in the day. If those stations are indeed faint with a complete salt water path, then getting TX from the mid Gulf Coast of Fla during midday is really difficult. The distance must be at least twice that long. But if those signals from Mexico in Key west are actually stronger....
So what is the max? (under normal conditions on a good to very good AM radio. Me thinks about 600 mi.

As a reference, I hear the last trace of CBK 540 Watrous, SK, Canada at 450 miles. One would think that 50KW at 540 across salt water would exceed 450 miles by a large margin...just an educated guess. Maybe someone will chime in with how far they hear the Caribbean powerhouse on 800khz during the day. That should provide a good starting point for determining how far salt water can support daytime propagation.

 

[gar hi]

All I can say is that right near the Gulf, WWL has a real good signal and that's getting close to 500 miles away. Unfortunately, our local on 860 really spilled over into 870 in that video I did because their transmitter was very near by where I was and their signal also was directional. Like I said, WWL had a good signal even about half way through Pinellas County and at least a few miles from the Gulf.

As far as the 600 mile limit goes, let's also consider the reports of getting the New York stations in Bermuda on standard radios. That's between 750 and 800 miles.

 

[radioman148]

All I can say is that right near the Gulf, WWL has a real good signal and that's getting close to 500 miles away. Unfortunately, our local on 860 really spilled over into 870 in that video I did because their transmitter was very near by where I was and their signal also was directional. Like I said, WWL had a good signal even about half way through Pinellas County and at least a few miles from the Gulf.

As far as the 600 mile limit goes, let's also consider the reports of getting the New York stations in Bermuda on standard radios. That's between 750 and 800 miles.

How far inland do you have to go lose WWL?

 

[vibe]

I'm about 1 hr S of gar. I can get a weak to moderately weak but listenable WWL 10-15 mi inland on a good nonstaticy car radio. (the car radio on my current vehicle on the AM side really sucks). The one on the old car, a Pontiac Vibe, had a real good AM tuner.
In retrospect the 600 mi is low since it is 500+ mi from my QTH as well to N.O. But there is a limit. What is it?
Next time I'm in FLA, I'll check out the Cancun and Cozumel stations shown on Radio Locator for Key West, which according to RL is approx 170 mi away from Englewood FL. But with this car radio there's not much to expect.

 

[gar hi]

How far inland do you have to go lose WWL?

I don't know how far you'd have to go to lose it completely but I'm more than 15 miles inland and I can still hear a bit of it in the background of WGUL's spill over. I'll bet the signal would sound even better if there was no station on the adjacent frequency. Even the New Orleans station on 1060 can start to be heard in the western most portions of Tampa. That one had a strong signal at the Gulf too.

 

[BRNout]

Since we're talking about salt water propagation on AM, I'll bring up the Great Salt Lake in Utah. Last week, I found myself with a little time to spare and decided to do some dxing from the Saltaire Resort on the SE shore of the GSL. Although AM "test stations" can be pretty hard to come by in that part of the country, I noticed a couple of interesting catches during the early afternoon.

For one, 670 KBOI Boise came in far better during the day along and near the shore of the Great Salt Lake than it does in the city - even at night. In fact, it pegged a 4/10 on my s-meter by the lake at about 2 pm; not bad for a 340 mile trip. Perfect station to test for, as what's left of it's signal in south central Idaho and northwestern UT gets channeled in right across that very salty water. Driving toward the city, it fades slowly because you're still over that salty soil until you get around the airport. By the time you get into Salt Lake City proper, it's a very tough catch. Picked up 590 KID from Idaho Falls, ID with about a 2/10 signal. That's a good 195 miles for a 5,000 watt signal. I also got a sliver of a signal from KSEI 930 from Pocatello, ID - a 5,000 watter - from 150 miles away. Not bad. The last two are stations that you cannot pick up elsewhere in the Salt Lake Valley.

Local TIS signals at 1680 from Clearfield, UT (about 35 miles) and at 1700 from Kaysville, UT (about 30 miles) were audible from that location too. Neither can be heard anywhere else in the Salt Lake Valley without specialized equipment.

Sadly, there just aren't that many powerful AMs in the region to try for - but those Idaho catches were enough to illustrate the power of salt water conductivity!

Also good line of sight from that location, enabling me to pick up all of the FM signals from the Logan/Tremonton, UT area (75 - 90 miles north of my location) including the following distant signals: KGNT 103.9 Smithfield, UT (class A); KKEX 96.7 Preston, ID; KLZX 95.9 Weston, ID; K297AP 107.3 (translator of KGNT) Tremonton, UT. That translator blasts out a whole 235 watts - which I picked up about 70 miles away!

All in all, good fun on a sunny afternoon.

 

[vibe]

Like gar, WWL comes in 10-15 mi inland. It was a preset on the last car and one can get it quite well on a good AM tuner 2-3 mi inland. Then it degrades. I did ID the 1060 90 mi N of Tampa (Yankeetown)-pretty good signal but with some interference on an adjacent if I could remember. It was a pain listing to the station before ID ing it.
Is the conductivity of the area around the GSL the same as around typical salt water beaches? Seeems pretty close.

 

[radioman148]

Since we're talking about salt water propagation on AM, I'll bring up the Great Salt Lake in Utah. Last week, I found myself with a little time to spare and decided to do some dxing from the Saltaire Resort on the SE shore of the GSL. Although AM "test stations" can be pretty hard to come by in that part of the country, I noticed a couple of interesting catches during the early afternoon.

For one, 670 KBOI Boise came in far better during the day along and near the shore of the Great Salt Lake than it does in the city - even at night. In fact, it pegged a 4/10 on my s-meter by the lake at about 2 pm; not bad for a 340 mile trip. Perfect station to test for, as what's left of it's signal in south central Idaho and northwestern UT gets channeled in right across that very salty water. Driving toward the city, it fades slowly because you're still over that salty soil until you get around the airport. By the time you get into Salt Lake City proper, it's a very tough catch. Picked up 590 KID from Idaho Falls, ID with about a 2/10 signal. That's a good 195 miles for a 5,000 watt signal. I also got a sliver of a signal from KSEI 930 from Pocatello, ID - a 5,000 watter - from 150 miles away. Not bad. The last two are stations that you cannot pick up elsewhere in the Salt Lake Valley.

Local TIS signals at 1680 from Clearfield, UT (about 35 miles) and at 1700 from Kaysville, UT (about 30 miles) were audible from that location too. Neither can be heard anywhere else in the Salt Lake Valley without specialized equipment.

Sadly, there just aren't that many powerful AMs in the region to try for - but those Idaho catches were enough to illustrate the power of salt water conductivity!

Also good line of sight from that location, enabling me to pick up all of the FM signals from the Logan/Tremonton, UT area (75 - 90 miles north of my location) including the following distant signals: KGNT 103.9 Smithfield, UT (class A); KKEX 96.7 Preston, ID; KLZX 95.9 Weston, ID; K297AP 107.3 (translator of KGNT) Tremonton, UT. That translator blasts out a whole 235 watts - which I picked up about 70 miles away!

All in all, good fun on a sunny afternoon.

Thanks for the report BRNout--interesting.

 

[BRNout]

Like gar, WWL comes in 10-15 mi inland. It was a preset on the last car and one can get it quite well on a good AM tuner 2-3 mi inland. Then it degrades. I did ID the 1060 90 mi N of Tampa (Yankeetown)-pretty good signal but with some interference on an adjacent if I could remember. It was a pain listing to the station before ID ing it.
Is the conductivity of the area around the GSL the same as around typical salt water beaches? Seeems pretty close.

Seems to be at least as good. One exception though: because the lake rises and falls over the years there is a wide area around it with underlying salty soil. Those areas also have very good ground conductivity. You don't get the immediate signal drop-off that you usually experience along the coast. So, when I left the beach area, KBOI faded a bit; but was still receivable for several miles until we got far enough away from the lake to where conductivity was reduced a bit. Even higher ground in the area was formerly part of ancient Lake Bonneville, but the best conductivity lies with the more recently inundated low areas that lie closest to the lake. I guess that, if I headed straight into the Oquirrh Mountains, it would have faded faster - but that's not how the highways are laid out.

It is also in this salty-soil zone that KSL has their transmitters (I drove right by them on I-80). Awesome spot for them, I bet they even boom into south central Idaho (Twin Falls, Burley) from there.
As an aside, KSL is such a powerhouse on AM yet Bonneville flipped an FM (102.7) to simulcast the AM format. They promote the Hell out of the FM and the AM signal is now the dirty stepchild. Yet the FM signal is one of the less-strong signals in the market (most are massive, so it's relative) and the AM signal is incredible. That gives you an idea of what corporate knuckleheads think of the MW band nowadays.

 

[radioman148]

Like gar, WWL comes in 10-15 mi inland. It was a preset on the last car and one can get it quite well on a good AM tuner 2-3 mi inland. Then it degrades. I did ID the 1060 90 mi N of Tampa (Yankeetown)-pretty good signal but with some interference on an adjacent if I could remember. It was a pain listing to the station before ID ing it.
Is the conductivity of the area around the GSL the same as around typical salt water beaches? Seeems pretty close.

Seems to be at least as good. One exception though: because the lake rises and falls over the years there is a wide area around it with underlying salty soil. Those areas also have very good ground conductivity. You don't get the immediate signal drop-off that you usually experience along the coast. So, when I left the beach area, KBOI faded a bit; but was still receivable for several miles until we got far enough away from the lake to where conductivity was reduced a bit. Even higher ground in the area was formerly part of ancient Lake Bonneville, but the best conductivity lies with the more recently inundated low areas that lie closest to the lake. I guess that, if I headed straight into the Oquirrh Mountains, it would have faded faster - but that's not how the highways are laid out.

It is also in this salty-soil zone that KSL has their transmitters (I drove right by them on I-80). Awesome spot for them, I bet they even boom into south central Idaho (Twin Falls, Burley) from there.
As an aside, KSL is such a powerhouse on AM yet Bonneville flipped an FM (102.7) to simulcast the AM format. They promote the Hell out of the FM and the AM signal is now the dirty stepchild. Yet the FM signal is one of the less-strong signals in the market (most are massive, so it's relative) and the AM signal is incredible. That gives you an idea of what corporate knuckleheads think of the MW band nowadays.

KSL has a great signal. They were one of the easiest AMs to DX when I was in Hawaii.

 

[ddsparxx]

There is one little station that I can hear fairly well here in Fredericksburg, VA and that is WGOP 540 in Pocomoke, City, MD, 105 miles away toward east. Pocomoke City is located east of Chesapeake Bay and WGOP's 500w (yes, only 500 watts) daytime signal crosses the bay and the very wide section of Potomac River to reach F'burg. It may also has to do with the low side of the AM dial. Ground conductivity along the East coast is lousy, however.

 

[RadioDze]

WGOP is a pretty easy catch down in Newport News, Va as well, especially along the James River.

 

[radioman148]

There is one little station that I can hear fairly well here in Fredericksburg, VA and that is WGOP 540 in Pocomoke, City, MD, 105 miles away toward east. Pocomoke City is located east of Chesapeake Bay and WGOP's 500w (yes, only 500 watts) daytime signal crosses the bay and the very wide section of Potomac River to reach F'burg. It may also has to do with the low side of the AM dial. Ground conductivity along the East coast is lousy, however.

Low dial position and salt water are a good combination.