Try New York HD AMs on DXTuners

[Mike Walker]

Anybody here tried listening to the New York tuner on DXTuners.com? I tried it today, with the software in "high quality", and bandwidth set to 6khz. All the non-IBOC stations sounded just fine (some DAMN fine...especially with the filter at 15khz!), but the IBOC ones (I listened to WFAN, WOR, WABC, and WCBS) all had a terrible high-pitched ringing. Perhaps from the sharp 5khz "brick wall filter"? Whatever the cause, that tuner at least sure as hell doesn't like the IBOC stations! Wanna' hear "I-Buzz"? Tune off center with bandwidth set at 6khz (or to a lesser degree, 3khz). YIKES!

 

[LinoNYC]

Anybody here tried listening to the New York tuner on DXTuners.com? I tried it today, with the software in "high quality", and bandwidth set to 6khz. All the non-IBOC stations sounded just fine (some DAMN fine...especially with the filter at 15khz!), but the IBOC ones (I listened to WFAN, WOR, WABC, and WCBS) all had a terrible high-pitched ringing. Perhaps from the sharp 5khz "brick wall filter"? Whatever the cause, that tuner at least sure as hell doesn't like the IBOC stations! Wanna' hear "I-Buzz"? Tune off center with bandwidth set at 6khz (or to a lesser degree, 3khz). YIKES!

That "ringing" was one of my principal complaints about AM iboc but newer processors that stations have employed over the last 2-3 years has largely solved this problem.

You are probably hearing the results of cross coding and the cumulative effects of cascaded bit compression.

Awhile back I attempted to send a lenghtly aircheck from the analog signal of WABC to a friend in Thailand who has dialup. I tried a 20K encoding rate and while this was OK for my voice missives to him, the aircheck suffered from the exact problem you describe. It turned out that 64K was the minimum I could use for OTA recording.

Lino

 

[Mike Walker]

That makes sense Lino, except for one thing. WHAT "CASCADING"? Cascading comes from multiple encode/decode cycles. These are analog tuners. I see no reason why there should be more than ONE encode/decode cycle (encoded at the computer used for audio from the tuner, decoded on my system). And I chose the "high quality" option, which should eliminate problems from very low bitrates. So again, MY GUESS is that this ringing is a result of the tuner's reaction so the brickwall 5khz filter at the station (because broadband analog AM stations, those without IBOC, don't sound this way!)

 

[R.F. Burns]

That makes sense Lino, except for one thing. WHAT "CASCADING"? Cascading comes from multiple encode/decode cycles. These are analog tuners. I see no reason why there should be more than ONE encode/decode cycle (encoded at the computer used for audio from the tuner, decoded on my system). And I chose the "high quality" option, which should eliminate problems from very low bitrates. So again, MY GUESS is that this ringing is a result of the tuner's reaction so the brickwall 5khz filter at the station (because broadband analog AM stations, those without IBOC, don't sound this way!)

But Mike there is an added digital element at work. They are receiving the digitally delayed analog signal and encoding it with a low bit rate microsoft codec. Who knows what that does to the audio. Take a listen to any of the TRN product. That audio has gone through so many layers of compression before it hits a radio station's transmitter that you can hear the grainy audio on a plain analog AM radio.

 

[hipporadio]

...All the non-IBOC stations sounded just fine (some DAMN fine...especially with the filter at 15khz!), but the IBOC ones (I listened to WFAN, WOR, WABC, and WCBS) all had a terrible high-pitched ringing. Perhaps from the sharp 5khz "brick wall filter"? Whatever the cause, that tuner at least sure as hell doesn't like the IBOC stations! Wanna' hear "I-Buzz"? Tune off center with bandwidth set at 6khz (or to a lesser degree, 3khz). YIKES!

BRAVO, Mike!!! I proud of you—REALLY! Now isn’t a bit of intellectual honesty really refreshing? Consider yourself fortunate, as the “TRIPpers”—Terrestrial Radio Industry Patriots [credit to “The Radio Racket’s” George Brusstar for that brilliant acronym] likely WILL NEVER experience such a simple slice of ethics!

I didn’t need a high-speed internet connection and far-away virtual tuner to experience the same enlightenment that you just did... I merely toted a few QUALITY AM RADIOS [yes, they still exist despite their “endangered” status] to the ex-urban Cincinnati area over Thanksgiving. Cincy could be considered an early ground-zero for “The Great HD-AM Science Fair Project” – or, if you will—“Beta-Test at the Consumer’s Expense”. This menace was actually born there on USDAR-licensed 1660AM back in the ‘90s before the corporate welfare X-Band was “cool”. The Queen City also serves as home to FOUR AM frequencies allowed under the roof of ONE corporate entity [a.k.a.—CCU]; and three of them are self-degrading their signals—allegedly for the sole benefit of CCU’s “investment” in iBiquity. Only 550 WKRC couldn’t make-it to the party... ‘Seems their complex DA and IBOC ‘puter don’t pass as “playmates”. 700 WLW, 1360 WSAI, and 1530 WCKY weren’t so lucky [did I get the last-two right—they have flipped formats and calls often – depending on CCU’s mood and ulterior motives].

In the interest of space, I’ll dispense explaining the notion that there is NO rational reason why the latter-two need cart around a pair of HD saddlebags [YOU can fill in the blanks]. WLW is another story—and OH what a story indeed! Life should be so-very-simple with 50kw at the low-end of the band, a single B-Knox half-wave radiator, and recent solid-state digitally-modulated rig... Suffice to say—The “Big One” sound[ED] B-I-G ‘n bodacious in the very-finest fashion! NO MORE, Norton! ...iNiquity arrived in the room – and a muddled mess INSTANTLY followed! The transition was striking, and apparent to even the “uninitiated” tooling around the Tri-State in their GM Saturns and Chrysler Mini-Vans... NO “wide bandwith” provision was necessary to arrive at the conclusion that “The Nation’s Station” suddenly sounded little-better than the lowly “local” on 1450 in nearby Hamilton, OH... In fact, the latter [WMOH] SOUNDS BETTER!

These days, the biggest impression one gets from WLW’s occupation of the 700kHz frequency, is the obnoxious presence of its turbo-charged HD after-birth! If you thought you’ve heard “the buzz-saw”—you need to experience “The WLW buzz-saw”—belching-out smoke, soot, and noxious aural fumes across a FIVE-CHANNEL band-spread ...And whatever happened to that fantasy known-as “the NRSC mask”? ...OH... I forgot – It’s been conveniently-usurped by the HD Fantasy.

Here’s our “AM receiver Honor Role” [exceptional by today’s norm]: Denon’s TU-660—the consummate dual-bandwidth “NRSC AMAX” tuner from the early 90s; Sangean’s WR-2—the best among today’s crop of inexpensive digitally-tuned table radios in sensitivity and sound quality; C Crane’s CCRadio Plus AND it’s new rebranded and enhanced dual-bandwidth 1kHz-tuned ESB-capable CCRadio-SW [a Kiato KA2100 with the addition of Crane’s TCF AM antenna built-in]... Just for low-rent fun, I’ll toss-in the Eton/Grundig FR200 so the Boulevard Set can’t accuse me of being TOO “unrealistic” [by iBiquity standards, of course]. NONE of these receivers are immune in ANY mode to the IBOC “hash” generated in Mason, OH! FORGET about ANY yearning to engage the wideband capabilities of the Denon or Crane radios—not unless you savor a good dose of metallic “piggy-squeal” with your right-wing talk WLW’s IBOC “hash” is a constant and irritating nuisance; and OBVIOUS degradation of its aural “presence” is woefully-apparent on EVERY RADIO noted! In fact, “The Big One” is literally-IMPOSSIBLE to optimally-tune on the most “mass appeal” of these receivers—the $40 Eton/Grundig.

I have NEVER witnessed an example of common-sense-flying-south in the name of such narrow self-interest that comes anywhere close to this sad situation. NO TRIPper need give me a lecture on “the decline of AM radio” while they cheerlead such a sad scenario as this!

Now Len14043 is a frequent and productive participant here... He is all the following: Technically-competent; an above-average user of radio [as he travels frequently]; appears to own a beyond-typical number of radio receivers [and familiar with many-more]; is an owner [and supporter] of HD Radio; and [most-importantly] resides in the Cincinnati area. So Len... Since I have been labeled a “liar” and litterbug within the past 24-hours by the TRIP “poster-child” here – I call upon you to return to this thread and offer ANY cogent dispute to the observations I have made. I’m inviting, and will respectfully accept your response and/or rebuttal; but please remember – I’m entitled to defend myself IF your modes’ is membership in the TRIP Fraternity. As your local Bill Cunningham often says on the now-mushy 700 WLW: “Give us a full report!”

 

[LinoNYC]

I have NEVER witnessed an example of common-sense-flying-south in the name of such narrow self-interest that comes anywhere close to this sad situation. NO TRIPper(?) need give me a lecture on “the decline of AM radio” while they cheerlead such a sad scenario as this!

Once again we interrupt this fantasy with some facts;

You cite WLW damage audio at the implemtation of iboc, the Arbitron ratings don't seem to bare this out:

http://www.arbitron.com/home/ratings.htm -It has bounced around in exactly the same range as it has for the last decade although it's audience has gotten steadily older.

In fact none of the AM iboc stations nationwide have ever shown a shift in ratings that was not explained by format change.

Rant all you want, to average listener with typical radio and ears it doesn't matter.

Here in NYC we have two similar N-T's WABC and WOR they have the oldest and second oldest listeners respectively.

The highest billing of the two, WABC bills less than half that of WINS -a straight news'er and one-third of the "Lite" station WLTW.

While it's true that conservative talk may be somewhat out of place here in the city, the real issue is the age and income demos of the listeners.

I've read that WOR is already being paid to clear atleast one of it's daily lineup (perhaps two, I haven't gotten confirmation) This, and the sort of low-rent commercials and weekends full of paid programming that air on these two powerful and decently rated (12+) stations is indicative of what is happening to formerly dominant AM signals.

If you want to complain about iboc and how it is spoiling your joy with your "superadio" go right ahead.

Lino

 

[LinoNYC]

That makes sense Lino, except for one thing. WHAT "CASCADING"? Cascading comes from multiple encode/decode cycles. These are analog tuners. I see no reason why there should be more than ONE encode/decode cycle (encoded at the computer used for audio from the tuner, decoded on my system). And I chose the "high quality" option, which should eliminate problems from very low bitrates. So again, MY GUESS is that this ringing is a result of the tuner's reaction so the brickwall 5khz filter at the station (because broadband analog AM stations, those without IBOC, don't sound this way!)

WHAT "CASCADING"? Cascading comes from multiple encode/decode cycles
Cascading is the serial application of any similar processes, ie: agc, limiting, eq etc.

It's a fact that most of the AM iboc stations do resort to 'peaking' what is left of their analog high end but I have have high quality tuners and it has not been an issue for several years. If what you are hearing is fatiguing, it stems from the audio qualities of your computer which may exaggerate these flaws or more likely the the reaction of a digitally processed analog signal being re-encoded.

I've heard it, I know what you are talking about but you cannot use any form of compressed-data feed to evaluate quality, there are too many interacting factors.

Lino

 

[Mike Walker]

Lino, when you hear it on the IBOC stations, and, on the same tuner, under the same circumstances, DON'T hear it on the non-IBOC stations, it isn't proof. But it's very powerful anecdotal evidence that, at least in this tuner, SOMETHING that EVERY ONE OF THESE IBOC STATIONS IS DOING, is causing this ringing. "Compression" artifacts doesn't "cut it", as the same artifact should show up on ALL stations. After all, they're received by the SAME tuner, over the SAME connection, using the SAME internet connection. The only thing that changes is the signal chain AT THE STATIONS...and the only variable seems to be IBOC!

If you "can't judge quality" with "any" compression, the worlds of broadcasting, film, and multimedia are in a world of hurt, because some times of data compression (audio and video) are present in the vast majority of what we hear, and see these days. OF COURSE YOU CAN JUDGE QUALITY WITH COMPRESSION! "Judgement" is the "perception" in "perceptual coding", for God's sake. It's ALL ABOUT PERCEPTION! I CLEARLY HEAR ringing artifacts on ONLY the IBOC stations. If you tried this test (at DXTuners), YOU DO TOO!

 

[hipporadio]

You cite WLW damage audio at the implemtation of iboc, the Arbitron ratings don't seem to bare this out...

Just what I was waiting for... A TRIP Fraternity Founding Father TRIPped-up by his own fantasy-assisted “logic”. Where does the typical corporate radio apologist first flee for aid, comfort, and/or an excuse? Where else, than the perfect world OF ARBITRON The hilarious irony is... Things are so dismal in WonderLand, that what remains of the radio industry has now turned on the very paper Tiger it has tithed-to for DECADES! In case you were so-consumed with iBiquity’s latest blather that you missed the big news – your brotherly ilk has turned on the hand that formerly fed it. The “revolt” is as unprecedented as the over-the-air product is passé. Your industry no longer has sufficient confidence in it to survey PROGRAMMING – yet you’re turning to it for a TECHNICAL JUSTIFICATION : I doubt even the suits in Beltsville ever dreamed they would be called-upon to measure a MODULATION METHOD!

You ARE CORRECT in ONE of your ascertains – AM audience IS ageing [sic. WLW’s]; so I guess the 30-year-old that discovered Gary Burbank on nearby 790 [the former WAKY Louisville] back in the 70s is now-approaching 65 – and out of your fabled “money demo”. But here’s where your logic turns against you... That 65-year-old, after DECADES of appreciation for Gary and his BBC, ISN’T about to immediately-cease listening because of that “dull roar” in the background. Likely, they have reached an age and level of aural impairment that renders such a nuisance less-relevant [to THEM]. YOU know this VERY-WELL – and so do your corporate card-players!

FAR-MORE ubiquitous is the detriment to the younger audience you chide for their lack of attention. I can assure you, the “dull roar” is noticed, resented, and duly-accounted for by a generation with higher technical expectations and more-acute hearing... In reality, your Science Fair project only enhances the unfortunate stereotype that haunts AM radio with that segment. Nasty old AM grows even gorier on receivers IN THE CURRENT HANDS of a youthful prospect when afflicted with the artifacts of your industry’s narrow technical self-interest!

Please recall...

...a muddled mess INSTANTLY followed! The transition was striking, and apparent to even the “uninitiated” tooling around the Tri-State in their GM Saturns and Chrysler Mini-Vans...

The owner of the GM Saturn is a 38-year-old manufacturer’s rep firm Sales Manager who travels the Tri-State several times weekly... The Chrysler driver is a 45-year-old VP of Corporate Lending at a major Midwest bank headquartered in Cincy [are both TOO-old for you still?]... They have long-reserved preset #1 for WLW... NO LONGER! One is subscribed to Sirius – the other enjoys XM – BOTH have asked me: “What’s WRONG with the sound on WLW lately?” BOTH are much too preoccupied with matters FAR-MORE important than filling-out the “next best thing to a crossword puzzle for an old-timer” a.k.a.—an Arbitron diary... And don’t expect to catch them role-playing “home detention for a week” by wearing a PPM! OH, times they-are SOOO-tough in DisneyLand! :'(

If you want to complain about iboc and how it is spoiling your joy with your "superadio" go right ahead.

BELIEVE ME... There is NO “joy” to be spoiled, since there is NO AM IBOC in the community where I live – and NONE barrels-in from the outside UNTIL the sun sets—for awhile anyway – until corporate radio turns on its own flesh [the cannibals that they are] in court over mutual interference issues that can’t be resolved with their preferred currency—pay-offs! And PARDON ME... My “SuperRadio” is from 1981 and was NOT on the list... Nice try – poor comprehention!

 

[LinoNYC]

But it's very powerful anecdotal evidence that, at least in this tuner, SOMETHING that EVERY ONE OF THESE IBOC STATIONS IS DOING, is causing this ringing. "Compression" artifacts doesn't "cut it", as the same artifact should show up on ALL stations

Wrong, you need to read-up on this. Sucessive generations of D/A conversion or bit reduction have a cumulative effect and the results can be quite "weird".

One of the biggest complaints that I have read from engineers running AM iboc is the fact that compressed files (spots etc) that sound fine in analog can interact with the iboc coding and sound awful. Tom Ray has made a point of insisting that WOR receive "linear' files from the agencies.

OF COURSE YOU CAN JUDGE QUALITY WITH COMPRESSION!

Not without the entire set of components, that includes what sort of sound card/chipset the reproducing device uses and ofcourse speakers.

I have 11 computers here at home all are P4 or Athalon but the sound cards vary, While all sound very similar reproducing high quality streams such a .Wav their reactions to compressed files is quite noticeable from card-to-card. The more compressed the file, the more obvious the difference between units.

If you visit a number of professional recording studios, you'll note that all tend to use the same D/A/A/D convertors monitor amps and speakers. The reason is not just "quality" but more important is uniformity. The ability of an engineer to train his ears thus produce an expected sound.

Nothing new about this, years ago audiophiles questioned the universal use of Altec 604 series speakers for monitor/mixdown service since they were far from flat. Engineers countered that they were a uniform product that they mentally compensate for the deficiencies with trained ears.

Just what I was waiting for... A TRIP Fraternity Founding Father TRIPped-up by his own fantasy-assisted “logic”.

Whatever "trip" is.

Where does the typical corporate radio apologist first flee for aid, comfort, and/or an excuse? Where else, than the perfect world OF ARBITRON

How do I as a listener, mostly to Public Radio qualify as "corporate"? Idiotic.

FAR-MORE ubiquitous is the detriment to the younger audience you chide for their lack of attention. I can assure you, that “dull roar” is noticed, resented, and duly-accounted for by a generation with higher technical expectations and more-acute hearing... In reality, your Science Fair project only enhances the unfortunate stereotype that haunts AM radio with that segment.

Come back to reality. AM has lost the youth audience for almost 30 years, sound quality was the reason then as now. AM played the "older demos" game for decades but unless advertiser's research suddenly shows a sharp change in attitude and vulnerablity to ad's older listeners and AM radio will be out of the game in just few more years.

...a muddled mess INSTANTLY followed! The transition was striking, and apparent to even the “uninitiated” tooling around the Tri-State in their GM Saturns and Chrysler Mini-Vans..

-But when the next generation of car radios incorporates iboc, the "muddy" stations will buffer and open into something much more likely to appeal to younger listeners.

And PARDON ME... My “SuperRadio” is from 1981 and was NOT on the list... Nice try – poor comprehention!

Figures.

BTW: comprehension

Lino

 

[clouseau]

...All the non-IBOC stations sounded just fine (some DAMN fine...especially with the filter at 15khz!), but the IBOC ones (I listened to WFAN, WOR, WABC, and WCBS) all had a terrible high-pitched ringing. Perhaps from the sharp 5khz "brick wall filter"? Whatever the cause, that tuner at least sure as hell doesn't like the IBOC stations! Wanna' hear "I-Buzz"? Tune off center with bandwidth set at 6khz (or to a lesser degree, 3khz). YIKES!

BRAVO, Mike!!! I proud of you—REALLY! Now isn’t a bit of intellectual honesty really refreshing? Consider yourself fortunate, as the “TRIPpers”—Terrestrial Radio Industry Patriots [credit to “The Radio Racket’s” George Brusstar for that brilliant acronym] likely WILL NEVER experience such a simple slice of ethics!

Wow! What a great news report. It even comes with an easy to remember Pnumonic to reinforce in the consumers mind what it is they are looking to dislike. TRIP... To bad we didn't add the "Don't trip Up" when it comes to your radio" tag line. Sheesh.

Lucky for us bad old terestrial radio guys we have you "Pure as the driven snow" realists to stop our catchy HD marketing.

I didn’t need a high-speed internet connection and far-away virtual tuner to experience the same enlightenment that you just did... I merely toted a few QUALITY AM RADIOS [yes, they still exist despite their “endangered” status] to the ex-urban Cincinnati area over Thanksgiving. Cincy could be considered an early ground-zero for “The Great HD-AM Science Fair Project” – or, if you will—“Beta-Test at the Consumer’s Expense”. This menace was actually born there on USDAR-licensed 1660AM back in the ‘90s before the corporate welfare X-Band was “cool”. The Queen City also serves as home to FOUR AM frequencies allowed under the roof of ONE corporate entity [a.k.a.—CCU]; and three of them are self-degrading their signals—allegedly for the sole benefit of CCU’s “investment” in iBiquity. Only 550 WKRC couldn’t make-it to the party... ‘Seems their complex DA and IBOC ‘puter don’t pass as “playmates”. 700 WLW, 1360 WSAI, and 1530 WCKY weren’t so lucky [did I get the last-two right—they have flipped formats and calls often – depending on CCU’s mood and ulterior motives].

I would count the last quote as the poster child for why we should listen to this tripe. Note in particular the interlaced "Quotes", Bold, italics and "[}"Brackets. This has got to be factual. I know a stark raving conservative, and even SHE love the Fox "Nation in peril" slime. C'Mon.

In the interest of space, I’ll dispense explaining the notion that there is NO rational reason why the latter-two need cart around a pair of HD saddlebags [YOU can fill in the blanks].

This is a joke right? A Galactically long response has been edited down in the interest of space? Got it.

WLW is another story—and OH what a story indeed! Life should be so-very-simple with 50kw at the low-end of the band, a single B-Knox half-wave radiator, and recent solid-state digitally-modulated rig... Suffice to say—The “Big One” sound[ED] B-I-G ‘n bodacious in the very-finest fashion! NO MORE, Norton! ...iNiquity arrived in the room – and a muddled mess INSTANTLY followed! The transition was striking, and apparent to even the “uninitiated” tooling around the Tri-State in their GM Saturns and Chrysler Mini-Vans... NO “wide bandwith” provision was necessary to arrive at the conclusion that “The Nation’s Station” suddenly sounded little-better than the lowly “local” on 1450 in nearby Hamilton, OH... In fact, the latter [WMOH] SOUNDS BETTER!

OK let's see. We have an Iniquity, A Muddled Mess, A "To the Unitiated", Saturns, Minivans and a proclamation that HD has basically ruined "The Nations" station. Clearly, this is demonstrated by the dramatic drop off of WLW's ratings.

Oh wait, I mean Clearly this is demonstrated by YOUR EARS. The rating is "LAGGING". Gosh, if I had a nickle for every talent who told me this... Guess where they tend to end up???

These days, the biggest impression one gets from WLW’s occupation of the 700kHz frequency, is the obnoxious presence of its turbo-charged HD after-birth!

There we go. HD radio is "AFTERBIRTH". Ya know, the comments I could make about you, your opinions and afterbirth are limitless. But it's YOUR analogy, so you can have it...

If you thought you’ve heard “the buzz-saw”—you need to experience “The WLW buzz-saw”—belching-out smoke, soot, and noxious aural fumes across a FIVE-CHANNEL band-spread

HOLY ZECCHINO BATMAN!!! "Belching-Smoke-Soot- Noxious Aural Fumes...."... You better hope Dr Z isn't under an RIAA contract. They'll jam you BIG TIME!!

...And whatever happened to that fantasy known-as “the NRSC mask”? ...OH... I forgot – It’s been conveniently-usurped by the HD Fantasy.

So now we are going to get the REAL fantasy. What the "Average listener" uses to hear "The Radio".

Here’s our “AM receiver Honor Role” [exceptional by today’s norm]: Denon’s TU-660—the consummate dual-bandwidth “NRSC AMAX” tuner from the early 90s; Sangean’s WR-2—the best among today’s crop of inexpensive digitally-tuned table radios in sensitivity and sound quality; C Crane’s CCRadio Plus AND it’s new rebranded and enhanced dual-bandwidth 1kHz-tuned ESB-capable CCRadio-SW [a Kiato KA2100 with the addition of Crane’s TCF AM antenna built-in]... Just for low-rent fun, I’ll toss-in the Eton/Grundig FR200 so the Boulevard Set can’t accuse me of being TOO “unrealistic” [by iBiquity standards, of course]. NONE of these receivers are immune in ANY mode to the IBOC “hash” generated in Mason, OH! FORGET about ANY yearning to engage the wideband capabilities of the Denon or Crane radios—not unless you savor a good dose of metallic “piggy-squeal” with your right-wing talk WLW’s IBOC “hash” is a constant and irritating nuisance; and OBVIOUS degradation of its aural “presence” is woefully-apparent on EVERY RADIO noted! In fact, “The Big One” is literally-IMPOSSIBLE to optimally-tune on the most “mass appeal” of these receivers—the $40 Eton/Grundig.

Mother of God, my brain is about to explode!!! Imagine for a short second that you DIDN'T sleep with a pocket protector. How about the opinions of REAL PEOPLE???? Or THEIR radios. How about we lose the Techno-Speak???

I have NEVER witnessed an example of common-sense-flying-south in the name of such narrow self-interest that comes anywhere close to this sad situation. NO TRIPper need give me a lecture on “the decline of AM radio” while they cheerlead such a sad scenario as this!

I would have thought you were older than 11, but apparently you weren't alive when they passed Telcom '96. You apparently missed the enactment of "Satellite fed translators", the acceptance of "Desirable to Undesirable" interference ratios for translators and Docket 80-90. Glad to hear you're conscious now. Welcome to the world of RADIO. BTW, Kahn AM stereo was rejected and believe it or not we elected Reagan the actor for president. It's been a heck of a ride. Sorry if you missed it...

LEN14043 is a frequent and productive participant here... He is all the following: Technically-competent; an above-average user of radio [as he travels frequently]; appears to own a beyond-typical number of radio receivers [and familiar with many-more]; is an owner [and supporter] of HD Radio; and [most-importantly] resides in the Cincinnati area.

Damn I'm so inferior. "I'M" not living in Cincinatti... Put my star on the floor and I'll chant "We are not worthy." C'Mon, dude I mean it. After all I'm from Texas... You know... Steers and queers. Do you see horns???

Since I have been labeled a “liar” and litterbug within the past 24-hours by the TRIP “poster-child” here – I call upon you to return to this thread and offer ANY cogent dispute to the observations I have made.

Make believe for a second that "MY" entire life does not revolve around this message board. Are you posting about me? I doubt it, but I'll dispute it anyway. But before I do, I need to ask... Do YOU live on Manasota Key???

I’m inviting, and will respectfully accept your response and/or rebuttal; but please remember – I’m entitled to defend myself IF your modes’ is membership in the TRIP Fraternity.

As I suspect NO ONE would accept this denegrating label from you , feel free to accept that you are NOT entitled to defend yourself if no one accepts that label. (And "I" sure as hell don't). Therefore, as per YOUR instructions, I don't expect to see your response.

As your local Bill Cunningham often says on the now-mushy 700 WLW: “Give us a full report!”
[/quote]

Dude, where I grew up, Bill Cunningham was a basketball player and coach.

Here's a hint. Life extends out of Cincinattia nd clear into Kentucy and beyond!!!

 

[LinoNYC]

Quote
Since I have been labeled a “liar” and litterbug within the past 24-hours by the TRIP “poster-child” here – I call upon you to return to this thread and offer ANY cogent dispute to the observations I have made.

Make believe for a second that "MY" entire life does not revolve around this message board. Are you posting about me? I doubt it, but I'll dispute it anyway. But before I do, I need to ask... Do YOU live on Manasota Key???

That and the rest..the best replies to this joker I've read. QUACK! QUACK!

Lino

 

[hipporadio]

Wow! What a great news report...

THANKS – I mean, Thanks

Mr. Inspector...

You started your ride here as an enlightened, witty, and somewhat entertaining smart-a**... I don’t regret using that term because [if you recall] I superimposed it upon myself also.

Lately, your “shtick” has turned completely-sarcastic, driven by personal invective, and one that invites removal of the former prefix, “smart”... You no-longer debate the issue – you simply belittle the other poster and [now] his writing skills... And you attempt it with VERY-LITTLE finesse.

The second quote from me you highlighted is as easily-verified “factual” as it gets... You know better, and you certainly have the resources to ascertain that.

WHAT HAPPENED? Did your 1kw “graveyard-frequency” AM station flip to IBOC – and your purdy-new HD Radio can’t get a lock at two-miles from the stick? And pardon the [brackets], bold, "close-quotes", and those cute little italics – but I appreciated my “A” in English Comp while enjoying a nap. And you? ‘Busy writing private monologs about those mean kids who pushed you around?

There's an excuse for some [Lino maybe]... BUT NOT YOU... You're BETTER than that!

 

[clouseau]

You started your ride here as an enlightened, witty, and somewhat entertaining smart-a**... I don’t regret using that term because [if you recall] I superimposed it upon myself also.

Lately, your “shtick” has turned completely-sarcastic, driven by personal invective, and one that invites removal of the former prefix, “smart”... You no-longer debate the issue – you simply belittle the other poster and [now] his writing skills... And you attempt it with VERY-LITTLE finesse.

What's happening here is that there is no discussion anymore. Virtually none at all. And that's because there's not a lot to discuss. It used to be interesting to speculate what would happen when HD was approved. The gang who insisted it would NEVER get approved. The other gang who contended it would never be authorized on AM at night. Remember the Richmond people who contended you wouldn't be able to hear ANYTHING?
http://digitaldisaster.org
That stuff was interesting. A lot of the tripe here now is just sour grapes, though. Grossly exagerated, bombastic hyperbole. Or stuff that is just borderline MEAN...

Did your 1kw “graveyard-frequency” AM station flip to IBOC – and your purdy-new HD Radio can’t get a lock at two-miles from the stick?

or ugly, personal and just plain wrong.

And you? Busy writing private monologs about those mean kids who pushed you around?

Yeah, that must be it. You ask "WHAT HAPPENED?"

You're kidding, Right?

Clouseau

 

[Len14043]

Now Len14043 is a frequent and productive participant here... He is all the following: Technically-competent; an above-average user of radio [as he travels frequently]; appears to own a beyond-typical number of radio receivers [and familiar with many-more]; is an owner [and supporter] of HD Radio; and [most-importantly] resides in the Cincinnati area. So Len... Since I have been labeled a “liar” and litterbug within the past 24-hours by the TRIP “poster-child” here – I call upon you to return to this thread and offer ANY cogent dispute to the observations I have made. I’m inviting, and will respectfully accept your response and/or rebuttal; but please remember – I’m entitled to defend myself IF your modes’ is membership in the TRIP Fraternity. As your local Bill Cunningham often says on the now-mushy 700 WLW: “Give us a full report!”

Hippo, I always enjoy reading your expressive and colorful posts which are informative as well as entertaining. Although I am an advocate of digital radio, I always attempt to be intellectually honest. Living in what some posters refer to as "ground zero" for HD radio, that gives me the ability to "give you a full report." With respect to FM IBOC, most reasonable people here see it as a somewhat flawed, but workable technology. Most of the FM stations in the Cincinnati and Dayton area have adopted IBOC. That facilitates observing coverage and interference issues on a packed band with stations spaced mostly 2 channels apart. FM IBOC does cause a minimal amount of interference that only a dxer such as myself would notice. IMHO, the benefits gained such as increased fidelity, resistance to multipath, and multi-channel capability far outweigh the slight negative aspects-especially if viewed in light of being a bridge to an all-digital scheme. If FM IBOC works here, it will work well in most places. Most of the posters here, with the exception of those on the fringe that screech IBOC sucks, kill all IBOC and "makes FM sound like AM", would agree. Another side benefit is that radios must have excellent sensitivity and selectivity to work well. For a mere $60, the Radiosophy 100 is the best performing FM radio for analog I have ever owned.
AM is quite another story. When IBOC first appeared on the scene, I was excited about the prospect of high fidelity on the AM band. After purchasing my JVC car radio, I took a day trip, or if you will, a short dxpiditation. It seemed neat to hear WLW boom out of my speakers in what seemed to be in full-fidelity 200 miles from thier tower. WJR also had an enormus digital footprint. After my short journey, I made several posts here extolling the virtues of AM IBOC. However, I soon realized those digital signals were very fickle. Throw in a thunderstorm, power lines or engine noise from a passing 18 wheeler, and the signal is lost. I reluctantly came to the conclusion that AM IBOC will not work except on the powerhouse stations. I still believe that digital broadcasting is superior to analog (see my October 4, 2007 post below), but not in the current IBOC form. Several suggestions were put forth on how digital radio should be implemented for AM. I believe the best solution is to allocate the 1500-1710 portion of the band to all-digital with a liberal policy allowing analog stations currently there to vacate those frequencies. As digital radio becomes more ubiquitous, another portion of the band could be converted. Graveyards could also be encouraged to move to the HD-2s. This would probably be a 50 year process. Despite the benefits of digital radio, people are not going to rush to purchase a new radio. It will be implemented slowly as digital capability becomes standard.

http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,82368.0.html

 

[hipporadio]

THANK YOU Len, for taking the time to respond... I had hoped that you would BECAUSE; you live there, own several HD-capable radios, and thus have more-than-ample opportunity to evaluate the technology on a daily and ongoing basis. Although the thread topic was not related to FM, I wholeheartedly share your observations regarding HD on that band; and came to those IDENTICAL conclusions by listening ON VISITS to the Cincinnati area. FM is “packed” in the Tri-State due to three factors: [1] Other large markets—Columbus, Dayton/Springfield, Indianapolis, Lexington, and Louisville; in relatively-close regional proximity; [2] An abundance of smaller cities with FM assignments in sub-politan and ex-urban proximity to Cincy; and [3] Its “border status” and immediate adjacency to a zone which permits Class C/C1/C0 facilities [Cincinnati is capped at Class B].

From a perch in the northeast suburb of Loveland, I have detected NO [zero – zip – nada] HD-induced interference to second-adjacent channels [many at Class A status], and surprisingly-minimal disruption to even receivable FIRST-ADJACENT stations from outside the market! A prominent case of the latter is the notorious grandfathered short-space between WEBN [Cincinnati] on 102.7 and WDHT [Springfield] on 102.9. Both are non-directional, at maximum Class B facilities licensed as Part 73.215 stations with a mutual interference agreement, and separated by about 70-miles. In regards to WEBN’s HD, it contends with more detriment from WDHT than it inflicts upon its neighbor. Traveling northeast on I-71, WEBN-HD “meets its Maker” near Mason/South Lebanon in neighboring Warren County, while the adjacent WDHT analog signal becomes reliable a few miles beyond. I believe this is THE THIRD TIME I have confessed these findings here, so I’ll put the FM-HD baby to bed and say: The sound quality is fine on stations utilizing the 96kbps capacity for their PRIMARY service, but SO IS A WELL-HANDLED ANALOG PROGRAM. While I’m not in a position to PROMOTE the technology, I remain “copasetic” [dictionary definition—“OK, good, fine”], and will be interested to observe the marketplace. Any enthusiasm I may have is muted by my speculation that HD Radio might simply be “too little – too late] in the face of more-compelling offerings delivered by a rapidly-growing media-rich internet.

I cannot extend my complacency to the pathetic AM version of IBOC! The buzz-saw barely began burning gas before I noticed two very-significant determents: The obvious and well-documented interference to neighboring channels that would NOT have been permitted before promotion of the “patched-together” AM-HD technology to an apathetic Commission; and an instant and very-apparent degradation of the tried-but-true long-established analog service—still depended-upon by the overwhelming majority of the AM radio audience. This thread began when Mike Walker accessed a virtual tuner via the net and observed diminished analog audio quality on stations that employed IBOC HD. Two weeks earlier on a visit to Cincy, I observed a similar condition listening to three of your local AM stations with HD transmission capacity.

I assembled a stable of FIVE radios—one, a perfect conformer to the AMAX standard and NRSC aural response curve; three current, affordably-priced, well-marketed, high-performance models; and one “garden variety” [cheap] albeit widely-sold portable. ALL of these radios clearly displayed objectionable IBOC hash within the analog audio component of all three Cincinnati HD-AM stations. All but the “cheapie” clearly-demonstrated a compromise in audio quality on the HD stations when compared with multiple locals that didn’t transmit in HD. Furthermore, the low-end radio struggled to even “center-tune” and notch out the full force of the IBOC hash on WLW! I merely posted my observations to augment Mike’s concern... And YES – those conclusions were assisted by MY OWN EARS... So what – I’ll happily stand by them, as I will the radios I was called a nerd for naming... Had I not, you KNOW what that poster’s FIRST question would have been!

What followed was a robust version of what we’ve come to expect from the pro-HD-at-any-cost cadre here... Robust is a polite adjective – “frantically incoherent” might be more applicable! So be it... I WILL NOT sacrifice my sensibilities for the approval of a half-dozen of questionable-motive here, and allow to meander unchallenged—a technical rip-off which spams an imperiled industry PLUS a pliable consumer public. Thanks again, Len – for the compliment and vindication of a “professional”

 

[upstate29651]

Anybody here tried listening to the New York tuner on DXTuners.com? I tried it today, with the software in "high quality", and bandwidth set to 6khz. All the non-IBOC stations sounded just fine (some DAMN fine...especially with the filter at 15khz!), but the IBOC ones (I listened to WFAN, WOR, WABC, and WCBS) all had a terrible high-pitched ringing. Perhaps from the sharp 5khz "brick wall filter"? Whatever the cause, that tuner at least sure as hell doesn't like the IBOC stations! Wanna' hear "I-Buzz"? Tune off center with bandwidth set at 6khz (or to a lesser degree, 3khz). YIKES!

How come I cannot access any website named dxtuners.com? What's the address for this site?

G

 

[4dude]

WWW.DXTUNERS.COM

the IBOC ones (I listened to WFAN, WOR, WABC, and WCBS) all had a terrible high-pitched ringing.

That radio currently has a BAD FILTER which they are trying to replace as soon as possible. The ring IS ON ALL FREQUENCIES!

 

[Mike Walker]

Haven't tried it today, but the other day I couldn't get it to "ring" on any analog-only stations, only the IBOC ones.

 

[4dude]

Well maybe you only noticed it on the HD signals cause you hate IBOC (Like we all do)