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TV Station Channel Brands After DTV Conversion?
- Thread starter landtuna
- Start date
Jim said:
You could be right - I haven't been in any other cities since the NBC changeover, so I can't comment. when KNTV first became an NBC affiliate (later an O&O), they branded as "NBC3," (their Comcast Cable position), then went to "NBC11" (broadcast dial position because they share some north Bay broadcast territory with KCRA - NCB3 in Sacramento. And the station is presumably in a different dial position if you have satellite, and different still if you are watching them in HD.
All things considered, it just seems simpler to go with "NBC Bay Area.".
This seems to be a trend -at least here in the San Francisco Bay Area - because our CW affiliate is now branding as "CW Bay Area,", and independent station always known as "TV20" has shrunk the "20" to a tiny font and is emphasizing their "KOFY" call letters (pronounced "Coffee," naturally) as their brand. I expect the "20" to disappear at any time now...
K
kenrayc
Guest
Many upper VHF stations ,Los Angeles for example are switching there DTV Frequencies back to there original Frequencies Example KABC-7,KHJ-9,KTTV-11and,KCOP 13. In Fresno KAIL 53 is Digital channel 7 and has decided to identify it as Channel 7,partly because the DTV band end at channel 50, on the flip side ABC30 (KFSN) is DTV channel 9 but will switch Digital frequency back to 30 2/17/09.The rest of the stations in will keep there DTV frequencies and map there original channel numbers. One more exception KNSO 51 (DTV ch.5) will switch to DTV 11 and call it that.
K
kenrayc
Guest
KAIL actually has been branding them self as MY-7 for a year now, the Fcc hasn't said nothing about it.One reason is to let averybody know they need a VHF antenna in a All UHF market.I talked to Chief Engineer at KAIL about this. One confusing thing though is that KAIL is on channel 13 on cable and the CBS affiliate KGPE 47 is on channel 7.One more thing KAIL is mapped as 7.1 and 7.2 for there second channel NOT 53.1 and 53.2.
Cable people don't have issues with channels moving. Dish and Cable move channels and people find them OK.
Older people and poorer people who don't travel may have more issues. I took a friend of mine on a trip to San Francisco and she called me from her room and said "Mark what channel is channel two here?" Well to her channel 2 is CBS, channel 5 is NBC and channel 7 is ABC.
I have tried my digital TV in various locations and the PSIP in Chicago is awful. It moves and it really is irritating on an RCA TV I have, cause you cannot just type in a channel, you have to do a full scan. For instance, WCIU 26.4 will move to 26.6 and shows up fine. So I scan the TV and it's fine. Then WCIU 26.6 will go to 26.7 and I can't just punch in 26.7 it shows up as "Broadcasting signal" with nothing on it. So I have to do a complete rescan, to pick up the channel number.
WTTW (PBS), WLS (ABC) and WCPX (ION) are all all like that, the subchannels are constantly moving.
On another note when I wrote the FCC to ask them the replied in an email, that a TV station could choose to map to their old analog number or just to their new digital channel if they chose. I do see WYCC in Gary IN, saying WYCC-DT channel 17. (It's NTSC number is 56). WYCC (PBS) IDs itself as 20 WYCC / WYCC-DT 21
The problem with mapping is tuners vary. I know someone with a TV tuner and he could get two channels 2. One from NYC and one from Baltimore. On one set the tuner would pick up BOTH channel 2s. Both the NYC and Baltimore stations are mapping to channel 2. But the other set (another brand) depending on the scan, he can only get station mapped to channel 2 at a time.
Except in the big three (Chicago, NYC and LA) channels numbers aren't that strong as they used to be.
Older people and poorer people who don't travel may have more issues. I took a friend of mine on a trip to San Francisco and she called me from her room and said "Mark what channel is channel two here?" Well to her channel 2 is CBS, channel 5 is NBC and channel 7 is ABC.
I have tried my digital TV in various locations and the PSIP in Chicago is awful. It moves and it really is irritating on an RCA TV I have, cause you cannot just type in a channel, you have to do a full scan. For instance, WCIU 26.4 will move to 26.6 and shows up fine. So I scan the TV and it's fine. Then WCIU 26.6 will go to 26.7 and I can't just punch in 26.7 it shows up as "Broadcasting signal" with nothing on it. So I have to do a complete rescan, to pick up the channel number.
WTTW (PBS), WLS (ABC) and WCPX (ION) are all all like that, the subchannels are constantly moving.
On another note when I wrote the FCC to ask them the replied in an email, that a TV station could choose to map to their old analog number or just to their new digital channel if they chose. I do see WYCC in Gary IN, saying WYCC-DT channel 17. (It's NTSC number is 56). WYCC (PBS) IDs itself as 20 WYCC / WYCC-DT 21
The problem with mapping is tuners vary. I know someone with a TV tuner and he could get two channels 2. One from NYC and one from Baltimore. On one set the tuner would pick up BOTH channel 2s. Both the NYC and Baltimore stations are mapping to channel 2. But the other set (another brand) depending on the scan, he can only get station mapped to channel 2 at a time.
Except in the big three (Chicago, NYC and LA) channels numbers aren't that strong as they used to be.
K
kenrayc
Guest
I have to add that it was the FCC that assigned KAIL Channel 7 for DTV.What is interesting is that KABC in Los Angeles and KGO in San Francisco will be using there old frequency after 02/17/09. With KAIL 7 in Fresno located at 4500 ft elevation in the Sierra Nevada Mountains theres going to be some over lap of signal being SF is about 150 miles away and LA 200 miles. So there will be 3 stations using the actual channel 7 digitally and all 3 mapped at 7.1 all with in 350 miles.
Scott Fybush said:
I don't foresee a huge problem to the South for sure. Bakersfield has never been able to pick up any OTA LA tv channels ever that I can recall nor Fresno for that matter without an elaborate rig. Fresno can be doable with a tall bird but LA is right out. KMPH-26 is high in the mountains and I never received it in Bako. Visalia/Tulare was the strong middle ground between receiving both Fresno and Bako signals. With DTV having a shorter reach over analog, I doubt Fresno is going to get over or even close to the Tejon Pass to cause a problem. Frazier Park might get unique crossover every once and a great while but probably not enough to cause alarm or concern.kenrayc said:
To the North I have no clue what could be possible.
kenrayc said:
It's perfectly legal for KAIL to brand themselves as "MY-7". However, remapping to 7.1/7.2 is not consistent with the regulations.
Of course, many (most?) music-formatted radio stations violate the legal ID rule once an hour - you *can* ignore FCC regulations and get away with it if nobody complains.
Where it would get interesting would be if two stations in the same market decided to remap to the same channel.
At the risk of driving this thread off-topic, how are they ignoring the regs? I don't recall listening to a station that consistently failed to identify ...w9wi said:
PTBoardOp94 said:
I don't think anybody is "ignoring" FCC regulations. All the FCC requires is for stations to legally ID themselves at the top of the hour with call letters and city of license. Obviously, radio stations must do this via voice announcement, but all TV stations have to do is flash their call letters and city of license on screen for a few seconds.
Other than that, stations are allowed to brand themselves as anything they want, much as radio stations these days are "Star," "The Wave," "Kiss-FM" and so forth. They try to be cute and get call letters that evoke their brand (KTWV for "The Wave," etc.), but they are not legally required to do so.
They are also not required to be exact about their frequency or dial postion. Another radio example - "Power 106" in Los Angeles is KPWR - 105.9 FM. As long as they say "KPWR, Los Angeles" once an hour at the top of the hour, they are in compliance with FCC regs.
PTBoardOp94 said:
From 73.1201(a)(2), referring to when the ID announcement must be made:
Yet it is quite common to hear a station ID several minutes before or after the hour -- even though there are plenty of natural breaks between songs (or spots) where an ID could have been run.
6:57:39 is not "as close to the hour as feasible" if you're starting a set of four :30 spots at 6:59:30.
What exactly are the rules for PSIP and virtual channel numbers when another station has a new station's frequency allotment as its remap?
For example, let's say I petition for, and get to build, a new public TV station in Southern New Jersey (to replace the 36 non-com allotment deleted during the transition)? My engineers and I agree that of the three possible allotments that could conceivably be added to the market, my best bet is on Channel 3, and the FCC allots that channel to Vineland, NJ, as a non-com DTV station.
Now I have a dilemma. I can't call the station "Channel 3" because KYW-DT already is 3.x, held over from their original analog channel. What could we use as our virtual number? 13? 33? (23 is already taken by WNJS-DT) 36? Something completely different?
(And please spare me the perennial "low VHF is bad for DTV" discussion; I know that, I'm just looking for an explanation of how things like this would work out in the future.)
For example, let's say I petition for, and get to build, a new public TV station in Southern New Jersey (to replace the 36 non-com allotment deleted during the transition)? My engineers and I agree that of the three possible allotments that could conceivably be added to the market, my best bet is on Channel 3, and the FCC allots that channel to Vineland, NJ, as a non-com DTV station.
Now I have a dilemma. I can't call the station "Channel 3" because KYW-DT already is 3.x, held over from their original analog channel. What could we use as our virtual number? 13? 33? (23 is already taken by WNJS-DT) 36? Something completely different?
(And please spare me the perennial "low VHF is bad for DTV" discussion; I know that, I'm just looking for an explanation of how things like this would work out in the future.)
Well, I understand the new TV station at channel 10 in Memphis, if it's allowed to go on-air, will be mapping to 56. It was originally supposed to be on 56 as analog, but that allotment was deleted as it wasn't built in time. So, the original permittee is trying to get it licensed as a digital on 10, which is where it would have gone after the transition had it signed on in time. Of course, they can't operate on 10 because WKNO is mapping to 10, which is its analog signal.
Kent said:
Doesn't the same company own both WKNO and the new-DT on 10? I imagine they'd do like KTCI/KTCA in Minneapolis will be doing, and map both of them to 10-x but with different minor channel numbers. In Minneapolis, KTCA will be 2-1 and 2-2, and KTCI will be 2-3 and 2-4. No reason they couldn't do the same in Memphis.
- Trip
I asked this question a while ago and never really got a good answer: in San Diego the new Fox affiliate is on analog channel 69 and digital channel 19. They are on cable channel 5. They ID themselves as Fox 5. Would the FCC allow this station to map to 5.1 since there is no channel 5 in the San Diego market? (there's a wikipedia entry saying that's exactly what will happen after the digital transition, but rabbitears.info says it's mapping to 69.1 right now)
The above posts are exactly the reason I continue to think the best and most understandable "channel branding" should be to follow the actual assigned frequency. To do otherwise makes TV similar to what radio has become with meaningless brands like "Qxx", "Yxx", "Cool-FM" (when 'cool' is not KOOL), "Jack/Mike/etc.".
tested said:
According to the rules, no - and perhaps it would be useful here to provide a link to those rules and an explanation of why they're not widely understood, even among broadcasters.
The rules are contained in ATSC Standard A/65, the document that describes PSIP. You can read the whole thing here:
http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_65cr1_with_amend_1.pdf
But it's very long, and very, very technical, and so you might just want to skip ahead to the meat, Annex B, on pages 90-91 of the PDF. It's titled "Additional Constraints on Virtual Channel Table For the U.S.," and here are the key bits:
(That last section is the reason a hypothetical new DTV 3 in Philadelphia would use 26.x as its major channel number, since KYW-TV, the previous NTSC occupant of 3, is on RF 26.)
So why do some broadcasters not get it? Possibly because ATSC Standard A/65 doesn't appear directly in the FCC rules. But it's still "incorporated by reference," and therefore carries the force of law, thanks to FCC rule 73.682(d):
Does this mean the FCC will swoop down on KAIL for using 7 instead of 53 as its major channel number, or on KSWB for using 5 instead of 69? As with enforcement of any FCC rule...it depends. The Commission is phenomenally short-staffed, so its enforcement actions are usually limited to situations that either pose an immediate threat or that draw loud complaints from other licensees. (That's why pirate stations on FM tend to get busted only when licensed stations in the market make noise about it.)
The A/65 standard does give broadcasters a certain degree of leeway to alter major channel assignments as long as it's coordinated to prevent conflict within a market. That's how KTCA and KTCI in St. Paul can both use 2.x, for instance. So as long as nobody else in Fresno is bothered by KAIL using 7.x, or in San Diego by KSWB using 5.x, the FCC may decide it has better things to do with its time. (In the case of KSWB, there wouldn't even be a political issue with the other nearby 5.x, since KSWB is co-owned with KTLA in Los Angeles.)
landtuna said:
It sounds as though you'd approve of a radio station branding with its actual calls - KQQL, say, or WMKK, instead of "Cool" or "Mike." But there's nothing intrinsically more meaningful about "KQQL" than there is about "Cool." Both are essentially arbitrary identifiers for transmitters. So is "54457," which is how the FCC itself identifies the station in Anoka, Minnesota known on air as "Kool 108" and in its legal ID as "KQQL." (The FCC doesn't license the station as "107.9," either - it's licensed as "Channel 300C," yet another form of mapping.)
It's true that most of the station's listeners are indeed tuned in to 107.9 - but not all of them, and to those listening on-line, "kool108.com" is a much more descriptive, useful, and understandable brand than "54457," or "300C," or "KQQL, Anoka." This sort of multi-platform broadcasting is only going to get more common with increasing use of HD2 FM relays of AM signals, multi-station regional networks, radio stations on iPhones, etc.
In any event, you still haven't answered my questions from earlier in the thread:
1. How does your "brand by RF channel number" proposal account for the very real, and very serious, confusion that it would cause in places like Syracuse, where "channel 24" has been associated with PBS outlet WCNY for more than 40 years - but on 2/17/09, that channel will become occupied by NBC affiliate WSTM ("channel 3" since 1950), while WCNY-DT stays where it is now, on channel 25?
Again, here's the difference in how it plays out to viewers -
Your way: "The NBC shows you've been watching on channel 3 for 59 years are now on channel 54 if you have a digital tuner, but they're about to move to channel 24. But the PBS shows you've been watching on channel 24 since the network was called NET? They're now on 25. Oh, and CBS isn't on 5 anymore, it's on 47, and ABC's not on 9 anymore, it's on 17, and Fox isn't on 68, it's on 19."
Channel mapping: "Everything is exactly where you're accustomed to finding it - NBC on 3, PBS on 24, and so on."
2. You're not at all concerned about the inequity of some stations - say "channel 11" and "channel 13" in Baltimore - being able to keep the familiar brands they've used for 60 years, while the competition has to go from being "channel 2" to being "channel 38"?
Do keep in mind that the stations involved in all of this, who have already spent millions of dollars with no immediate return on investment, had little or no say in what DTV channels they were assigned.
To go back to the fast-food analogy someone was making earlier - it's the equivalent of the government dictating that Burger King can still sell Whoppers and Wendy's can still sell spicy chicken sandwiches, but McDonald's must replace the Big Mac with something called the "McGrub Deluxe." (It's still the same sandwich that used to be called the Big Mac, but the name has to change.)
3. Did you understand W9WI's explanation that even your old analog TV already does "channel mapping"? There is no "channel 21," per se. There's a standard, defined in the days of mechanical tuners, that says that for analog TV, "channel 21" is 512-518 MHz. With today's technology, "channel 21" already has multiple meanings - it's still 512-518 MHz on my UHF analog TV tuner, but it can just as well be 162-168 MHz on my analog cable tuner, or pretty much any frequency on the dial on my digital cable box or satellite receiver.
I don't need to know any of that to watch TV, and my cable company can remap "channel 21" anywhere else on the dial it needs to put it - the modern tuner does it for me, just as the old mechanical tuner in your analog TV doesn't make you know "512-518 MHz" to watch "channel 21."
Maybe this will make more sense: right now, your computer is connected to a server at the IP address 74.201.255.130. How do I know that? Because that happens (at least at the moment I'm typing it) to be the actual ("physical," if you will) IP address of radio-info.com, pointing to a specific server in some server farm somewhere.
I don't need to memorize that meaningless string of numbers, and the operators of radio-info.com can move the site to any other server with any other IP address that's convenient for them, because there's a "mapping" process going on behind the scenes that tells your browser where it really needs to go when you type in "radio-info.com."
Would you really prefer that this site brand itself as "74.201.255.130"? Because that's essentially the same thing as forcing digital TV broadcasters to brand with an RF channel number that's both meaningless and potentially subject to change as technology keeps evolving.
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