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Unconfirmed report silent WDTW (AM 1310) heard testing

I don't think the sale of WDTW's license will affect the value of WFDF at all. WFDF is a ready-built fully-operational and young facility whereas WDTW is a piece of paper that says you can try to build a radio station. While WDTW was 5kW on 1310 with an NIF of about 12mV/m, WFDF is 50kW day/19kW night with an NIF of about 6mV/m. While WFDF leaves something to be desired in much of Detroit and Macomb County, it absolutely aces Western Wayne and Oakland. It's arguably the fourth best AM signal in the market (behind WJR, WWJ, CKLW and tied with WXYT, the latter of which is worse than WFDF in some places but better in others). On the other hand, it's an impossibility to cover the whole area at night on 1310 without buying many (possibly more than a dozen) 1310s off the air to reduce the interference and allow softer nulls (and I don't think Canada would allow them to buy CIWW off the air).

I do worry that 1310 will not cover Southwest Detroit at night if they rebuild the WDTW facility as it was (it was deep in interference there when it was on before going silent). They will need 12mV/m at night in all parts of Detroit south of I-94 and west of 14th street. Zamora should really try to get a night (or full time) facility in the Downriver area (Ecorse would be excellent for the purpose). They should be able to increase their daytime power beyond 5000 watts (possibly the full 50kW day with a DA south of about King Road, but then they would probably want a second site closer to SWD for night).

One thing I certainly think about WFDF and WDTW is that the pending availability of ready-to-roll WFDF caused the asking price of the WDTW license to drop. Supposedly, they had been asking $500K for it, but it suddenly sold for $100K just days after Radio Disney announced its clearance sale.


@umfan: Yeah, it's less than 1kw, but it's about thirty times what would be allowed on 1310 in a non-STA facility with the need to protect "senior" station WIBA from interference at night. When the STA hits the air, WIBA listeners more than about 15 miles from the WIBA transmitter will hear Spanish in the background. Fortunately for WIBA, the Detroit-area 1310 will eventually have to build a DA that protects other stations on the frequency.

@FredLeonard: Even in its WKNR heyday, its inability to provide 24-hour coverage to Detroit's East Side, most of Macomb County, and some far west suburbs was a real handicap. In the 1970's, the mass migration of its most prized listeners - Detroit's far west side was middle class and higher and listened to top 40 - to suburbs where WKNR's signal was poor, sealed the station's fate. This is why CKLW became so successful by using a format similar to WKNR and even hiring away much of WKNR's air talent.
 
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Was able to hear WDTW today (12/3/14) from 4:40 to 6:30 this evening, a loop of about 8-10 Mexican songs (the only one I recognized was Muchacho de Campo by Voz de Mando, which was a huge hit last winter) and an ID insert "WDTW Dearborn Detroit" in English with a heavy Mexican accent at the end of each loop.

The signal was heard well in the Downriver suburbs of Detroit.

I'm curious as to what the regular format will be. I think the tapes in the loop represented the music favored in Northern Mexico, but most of Detroit's Hispanics are from Jalisco or Michoacan, in Western Mexico
 
WDTW has applied to build a new array from the same site, with six towers in the same places, with the same phase settings - only with top-loaded towers, that will be shorter than the old ones, and thus will not need to be lighted.

I've put a more detailed post on the engineering board,
 
And it won't even serve Southwest Detroit at night!
I've also posted on the Engineering board. I think they should build where they could cover SW Detroit 24h or only build two towers for class D operation if they can't leave the Taylor site.
 
I'm inclined to agree. Maybe they're planning a translator to serve that area, but the FM bankd is crowded and the Class D setup would still enable that.
 
The saga now has a new twist. It seems they now want to build it without the expense of a traditional ground system.

The application has been amended to specify only 6 wire radials for each tower and for those radials to be above ground (rather than 120 radials underground for each tower).

What does not seem right is that the amended app specifies the same radiation RMS as the array had with 120 towers. Would not the new array be less efficient? Perhaps they could increase power above 5kw to make up for the difference, but the amendment does not show that.

For the first time, I'm really thinking the 1310 channel is going to stay silent :-(

They need to stick a Valcom in SW Detroit before they lose everything. Build bigger and better later.
 
They probably didn't have an engineer review the application. You are exactly right, the RMS would be far less efficient with an array as proposed when compared to the prior array. My guess is that they want to establish some base signal, somehow, anyhow, to enable them to apply for a translator.
 
I just realized I made a really stupid mistake on my last post, now that it's too late to edit. Of course I meant 120 radials, not 120 towers (too bad, that array would have given Fybush an awesome photo op!)

Certainly an FM translator would benefit the operation considerably, but I doubt any channel will be available now, with so many other translators and Canadian FM lighting up in just the past decade. Not to mention that most of 1310's potential audience will reside literally within two miles of the Canadian border (if in fact the format will be Regional Mexican).

It is worth noting that Southwest Detroit had several Regional Mexican FMs on the "alternate channels" (92.7, 93.5....106.3) before the translators and new Canadians arrived.

A question for engineers out there: How much power could WDTW run Class D into the daytime two tower array ?
http://fccinfo.com/CMDProEngine.php...abSearchType=Appl&sAppIDNumber=36167&sHours=D

I'm guessing it would be more that 50w, but less than 100, perhaps more if they used a different phase difference at night to pull that 215° null down closer to WIBA, putting a little more signal to the east (SW Detroit and Downriver suburbs) in the process.
 
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Even if it was high power, it would have the same issue that AM1270 had because of the tower height. The coverage would be spotty.
 
If WDTW could only wish they had the coverage issues of WXYT.

With its 12mV/m NIF, WDTW simply can't serve more than about a third of the Tri-county area at night.

WXYT'S coverage issues are the Charlevoix null and the mediocre soil of pivotal Oakland County.

WXYT's coverage is not really all that bad. It only "stinks" when people try to compare it to WJR.
 
Funny. WXYT isn't in Oakland County. Their tower site is in Ashland Township or really close to it.

Yes, their transmitter site is in Ash Township, Monroe County.

The effects of poor soil conductivity are not limited to the TL. Poor conductivity will be a barrier to AM radio reception anywhere in the signal path.

While the TL is in Monroe County, the rich listeners and poor soil are in Oakland County.
 
If WDTW could only wish they had the coverage issues of WXYT.

With its 12mV/m NIF, WDTW simply can't serve more than about a third of the Tri-county area at night.

There is no "tri-county" area for radio. The Detroit MSA for radio is seven counties, Lapeer, Livingston, Macomb, Monroe, Oakland and St. Clair as well as Wayne.
 
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There is a "tri-county" area if you're from the area. That's the frame of reference locals use. Maybe not in Schaumburg, IL but around Detroit.

Maybe 1270 would be better off, if they'd kept the stick at Broadcast House.
 
There is a "tri-county" area if you're from the area. That's the frame of reference locals use. Maybe not in Schaumburg, IL but around Detroit.

However, in the context of covering a radio market, Detroit is the 7 county Metro Survey Area, not a "tri-county" area. If ratings are important to a station (as I am sure they will not be for 1310) you have to be concerned with the entire area that the ratings company polls.
 


However, in the context of covering a radio market, Detroit is the 7 county Metro Survey Area, not a "tri-county" area. If ratings are important to a station (as I am sure they will not be for 1310) you have to be concerned with the entire area that the ratings company polls.

Fair enough, but since you have the numbers, what percent of the seven county market population is in those four "fringe" counties. You have to be concerned with where the listeners are, not some arbitrary map.
 
Fair enough, but since you have the numbers, what percent of the seven county market population is in those four "fringe" counties. You have to be concerned with where the listeners are, not some arbitrary map.


Lapeer, MI 89.8
Livingston, MI 186.5
Macomb, MI 846.7
Monroe, MI 154
Oakland, MI 1218.3
St. Clair, MI 164
Wayne, MI 1782.1

You have about 15% of the population in the 4 smaller counties. While not a huge percentage as you say, it's enough to tip the scales in station rank. Since Nielsen attempts fairly successfully to sample all counties in a radio metro, those counties would likely be integrated into the total survey in full proportionality.
 



Lapeer, MI 89.8
Livingston, MI 186.5
Macomb, MI 846.7
Monroe, MI 154
Oakland, MI 1218.3
St. Clair, MI 164
Wayne, MI 1782.1

You have about 15% of the population in the 4 smaller counties. While not a huge percentage as you say, it's enough to tip the scales in station rank. Since Nielsen attempts fairly successfully to sample all counties in a radio metro, those counties would likely be integrated into the total survey in full proportionality.

If your format is urban, the outer four matter very little, if Hispanic, only the inner three matter at all. (Lenawee would be good to cover, but it's none of the seven)

even if nearly all your listeners live in your 24h coverage area, you really need to cover all the inner three, as a listener in one part of the inner three may work, deliver, or commute to others.

BTW, I think only WJR would completely cover all seven to the corners.
 
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I wish Rich would check in on this issue about 6 radials vs. 120. There have been numerous reports of stations with disastrous ground system integrity improving efficiency with just a few radials, mainly from the "paperclip" antenna manufacturers. But the last I knew, the biggest problem was getting a complex directional array to work with a ground system as austere as a CB ground plane antenna. And the last I knew, none of those types of antennas were allowable for directional antenna systems. The day pattern MIGHT work with a limited ground system, but certainly not the night.
 
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