Undercharting hits

[amfmsw]

RF..don't speak for me, please. Prefacing with: "I think the only people who care..." would be more appropriate. And I would suggest, strongly, that music historians and researchers are very MUCH interested in chart positions, local and national, not "geeks".

I will agree, howerver, to saying most oldies programmers do not make most final decisions about the inclusion of a song to rotation based upon chart position.

 

[OldiesCat]

the charts

AMFMSW- if you think about it, music historians and researchers really are (respectfully) sort of radio "geeks"; perhaps "freaks" or "afficianados" is more appropriate (and I think we can include ourselves in that group), but I believe the point is that radio listeners have little knowledge and virtually zero interest in how songs chart/charted.

Yet, many on this board continually quote chart position or performance when they cry about short playlists, the "same old/same old" and so on.

 

[ixnay]

If Honey was #1 for eight weeks, SOMONE loved it. But many novelty songs, of which I consider Honey one, soared with great sales and airplay. Let's face it, the lyrics of Honey are heart-wrenching. At the same time, Sugar Sugar was crap too, but it gets payed every hour on the hour. Go figure.

According to the Whitburn Top 40 book (1996 ed.), "Honey" only spent 5 weeks at #1 in Billboard. Did it spent 8 weeks at the top in R&R? Not that I much care for "Honey" (don't ask me how it spent 5 weeks at the top, and I like "See the Funny Little Clown" even less).

Here are some Goldsboro hits that I like more than "Honey" (and their Billboard chart placings):

"Little Things" (#13, 1965)
"Voodoo Woman" (#27, 1965 [another undercharter])
"The Straight Life" (#36, 1968)
"Summer (The First Time)" (#21, 1973)

and those are just some more of Bobby's 11 Top 40 hits. I also like his 1969(?) "Muddy Mississippi Line" (great trumpet solos and girl chorus) which was a Bottom 60 hit, and I wish I could afford Whitburn's Hot 100 book.

ixnay

 

[davideduardo]

According to the Whitburn Top 40 book (1996 ed.), "Honey" only spent 5 weeks at #1 in Billboard. Did it spent 8 weeks at the top in R&R? Not that I much care for "Honey" (don't ask me how it spent 5 weeks at the top, and I like "See the Funny Little Clown" even less).

R&R did not yet exist.

Here are some Goldsboro hits that I like more than "Honey" (and their Billboard chart placings):

"Little Things" (#13, 1965)
"Voodoo Woman" (#27, 1965 [another undercharter])
"The Straight Life" (#36, 1968)
"Summer (The First Time)" (#21, 1973)

Guaranteed to lose you more cume than tracking a Zamfir CD straight through.

and I wish I could afford Whitburn's Hot 100 book.

I always wish I knew how much it cost to get some of those songz to chart back then.

Those of use who were in CHR at the time will remember how Put a Little Love in Your Heart got airplay.

 

[OldiesCat]

If Honey was #1 for eight weeks, SOMONE loved it. But many novelty songs, of which I consider Honey one, soared with great sales and airplay. Let's face it, the lyrics of Honey are heart-wrenching. At the same time, Sugar Sugar was crap too, but it gets payed every hour on the hour. Go figure.

According to the Whitburn Top 40 book (1996 ed.), "Honey" only spent 5 weeks at #1 in Billboard. Did it spent 8 weeks at the top in R&R? Not that I much care for "Honey" (don't ask me how it spent 5 weeks at the top, and I like "See the Funny Little Clown" even less).

Here are some Goldsboro hits that I like more than "Honey" (and their Billboard chart placings):

"Little Things" (#13, 1965)
"Voodoo Woman" (#27, 1965 [another undercharter])
"The Straight Life" (#36, 1968)
"Summer (The First Time)" (#21, 1973)

and those are just some more of Bobby's 11 Top 40 hits. I also like his 1969(?) "Muddy Mississippi Line" (great trumpet solos and girl chorus) which was a Bottom 60 hit, and I wish I could afford Whitburn's Hot 100 book.

ixnay

And the truth remains that how much people like a song has nothing to do with "the charts".

 

[skippertthomas]

Fun topic.... .... Having played chart-meister for the PD (who was only concerned about rotation of HOT/ MEDIUM / LIGHT / HITBOUND and the EVER important RECURRENT, I got to give songs numbers that really didn't mean much.. 1 was as hot a 9... 10 was as hot 23... 24 to 30 were HB or LIGHT... He did alot of checking with lp sales, requests and age groups on songs to be considered for RECURRENT.... ;D Regionality was a strong force in what got played.. REO was big in the midwest when they couldn't fill up a small club on the West Coast or in Florida... AND, don't forget, as Artists became major acts, their mid-charting hits of their early days became anthemns of their careers.. Led Zep-"Stairway To Heaven" not a single..."Piano Man" by Billy Joel was a mid-charter....Billboard charts were always based on orders from stores and chains, direct from the record company, radio play came in as R&R, The Gavin Report, FMQB and other play based charts took them down as the solo GOD of charting... I always liked R&R and Gavin.. Really, you could break down the local / regional / and national rotations so much better... :

 

[amfmsw]

OCat...I thought about it. I guess you're right. Most of us on here are "geeks". I guess I have such a negative linking to the word.

 

[Steppenwolf]

I'd like to hear the same radio station play:
Move Over by Steppenwolf
Out In The Country & One Man Band by Three Dog Night
Land Of 1000 Dances by Wilson Pickett
Theme from Shaft by Issac Hayes
Polk Salad Annie by Tony Joe White
25 or 6 to 4 by Chicago
My Cherie Amour by Stevie Wonder
Go Down Gamblin by Blood Sweat & Tears
All of these songs received airplay on top-40 legend WLS, Chicago.

Ever gonna happen? Of course not. But with my "mp3 radio station", I do hear them all. And as technology continues to change, with satellite radio and mp3's already here and people already able to virtually "program" their own radio station so to speak, not even HD radio is going to save terrestrial radio.

 

[OldiesCat]

Undercharting

I'd like to hear the same radio station play:
Move Over by Steppenwolf
Out In The Country & One Man Band by Three Dog Night
Land Of 1000 Dances by Wilson Pickett
Theme from Shaft by Issac Hayes
Polk Salad Annie by Tony Joe White
25 or 6 to 4 by Chicago
My Cherie Amour by Stevie Wonder
Go Down Gamblin by Blood Sweat & Tears
All of these songs received airplay on top-40 legend WLS, Chicago.

Ever gonna happen? Of course not. But with my "mp3 radio station", I do hear them all. And as technology continues to change, with satellite radio and mp3's already here and people already able to virtually "program" their own radio station so to speak, not even HD radio is going to save terrestrial radio.

There is a big difference between "received play" and "remains a legitimate hit".

The Chicago and Wilson Pickett are legit hits; ditto with Stevie. The rest would be a great reason to buy an MP3 player and dump terrestrial radio. That may be an ideal mix for you and that's great but most of the rest of the listening public wouldn't give a station like that more than an occasional listen.

 

[barnaby_wilde]

Oldies Cat, I would listen to Steppenwolf's station. Something makes me want to believe that, except for the three you mentioned (those popular, but overplayed [IMO] tunes), a casual listener might think either:
Wow, I haven't heard that in a long time.
OR
I never heard that before, but I like it.

They are all good songs and not so obscure as to be considered oldies trivia tunes. Lowest charted song was #32, and Shaft was a #1! I would doubt that you could get away with that particular block of tunes together, but definitely you could toss in one or two of those songs an hour. On a weekend, you could probably do more. Everybody seems to say that overplaying the same songs is what is killing the format, yet no one wants to quit "drinking the kool aid."

Hey, Steppenwolf, let's add:

Undun by The Guess Who (#22)
I'm Gonna Be Strong by Gene Pitney (#9)
Shoo-Be-Doo-Be-Doo-Da-Day by Stevie Wonder (#9)
Sunny Afternoon by The Kinks (#14)
634-5789 (Soulsville, USA) by Wilson Pickett (#13)
Don't Take It So Hard by Paul Revere & The Raiders (#27)
All I Ever Need Is You by Sonny & Cher (#7)
Workin' At The Car Wash Blues by Jim Croce (#32)
Sundown by Gordon Lightfoot (#1)

 

[Steppenwolf]

I will acknowledge that some hits that were played by WLS Chicago were probably regional in nature. Even though WLS is a 50 KW blowtorch, it is a Midwestern station. A couple of the hits they played that will end up on my mp3 were Amos Moses by Jerry Reed & Gitarzan by Ray Stevens. They were probably too country in nature to be played by a station like WABC. More hits, that is, songs that received airplay by the legendary WLS Chicago..............(How they ranked on a playlist I don't know and don't care.)
1. How Do You Do by Mouth & McNeal
2. When I Die by Motherlode
3. She's A Lady by Tom Jones
4. Psychadelic Shack by the Temptations
5. All Day Music by War
6. Soul Deep by The Box Tops

 

[fang39]

Ray Stevens' Gitarzan was in heavy rotation on WABC in 1969--I still get a kick out of hearing it!

 

[barnaby_wilde]

Big Ray Stevens fan here. Used to catch the school bus near an apartment complex where he lived (a very long time ago). Caught a glimpse of him a couple of times. I'll never forget going back to college picking up a broadcast of him with the Nashville Symphony. Would love to have a copy of that! You should hear Gitarzan with the symphony as the back up to Jane, the monkey, and Gitarzan!

 

[OldiesCat]

Oldies Cat, I would listen to Steppenwolf's station. Something makes me want to believe that, except for the three you mentioned (those popular, but overplayed [IMO] tunes), a casual listener might think either:
Wow, I haven't heard that in a long time.
OR
I never heard that before, but I like it.

They are all good songs and not so obscure as to be considered oldies trivia tunes. Lowest charted song was #32, and Shaft was a #1! I would doubt that you could get away with that particular block of tunes together, but definitely you could toss in one or two of those songs an hour. On a weekend, you could probably do more. Everybody seems to say that overplaying the same songs is what is killing the format, yet no one wants to quit "drinking the kool aid."

Exactly- you and 4 other radio geeks. Big deal.

And, by the way, THE CHARTS DON'T MATTER. Never did, never will, don't now.

 

[OldiesCat]

Great

You guys can load Ray Stevens' Greatest Hits on your MP3 players or burn the CD. I would not destroy my Oldies station playing many of the songs mentioned over the last several posts.

What you fellows don't get is you can commiserate amongst each other for years but your tastes compared to the general public's listening tasts are vastly different.

 

[Steppenwolf]

Re: Great

That is exactly the point! The general public's tastes, EVERYBODY'S tastes, vary. No station is going to play the wide variety of oldies that I actually DID hear WLS play in the 1960s and 1970s. How high the songs got on the charts doesn't matter to me. I still remember them and will put them on my mp3. And with my mini-FM transmitter I'll listen to them thru my car FM radio! No oldies or classic hits or classic rock station using pseudo-research can pull off playing that kind of variety that'll please enough people.

What you fellows don't get is you can commiserate amongst each other for years but your tastes compared to the general public's listening tasts are vastly different.

 

[amfmsw]

Listen to the Catman. He speaks for all of us. We have no soul or memories of our own. Only the ones we are allowed are those by research and consultants. You are wrong at all times. You will like these 400 songs only, all others never existed.

 

[davideduardo]

Listen to the Catman. He speaks for all of us. We have no soul or memories of our own. Only the ones we are allowed are those by research and consultants. You are wrong at all times. You will like these 400 songs only, all others never existed.

That is not what was said. There are two groups of music in play here. First is one which is shared by many, many people who would listen to a radio station that plays song from that group, as they are mass appeal. The second group conists of songs which very few people want to hear, but which a small slice of the audience does like; the rest of the overall group dislikes the song and would hate to hear it.

Gitarzan is an example of the second group. By playing it, you make a tiny group happy, but you really upset the larger group.

"Research" is just a term for talking with consumers. In the context of music for the radio, it means quantifying the songs you might play to determine which ones nearly everyone will like (and if they don't like it, at least they will tolerate it) and to also determine the ones few people like and which will irritate the audience. In essence, you are asking a sample of listeners, song by song, "how much do you want to hear this song ont he radio today?"

Consultants don't pick songs. The listeners do.

 

[OldiesCat]

charts

Listen to the Catman. He speaks for all of us. We have no soul or memories of our own. Only the ones we are allowed are those by research and consultants. You are wrong at all times. You will like these 400 songs only, all others never existed.

As David stated, that is not what I'm saying. And, you know it, too. I have never been a proponent of 300-400 song playlists, as I've stated dozens and dozens of times, so I would really appreciate you not trying to put words in my mouth.

As for the continual negative spin you insist on putting on research and consultants, please consider this: I don't know about you but I can't think of any better way to find out what your listeners like than to get in front of them and ask them what they like, what they don't like, what they're tired of and what they're unfamiliar with. THAT is what research is all about. If you want to fly blind and depend on old record charts, great-knock yourself out. But my station will beat your station every day, week, month and ratings book. As far as consultants go, most stations don't have consultants, so your insistence on them being so evil is pretty much moot.

 

[Steppenwolf]

Re: charts

That's pseudo-research and pseudo-consultants. And it, they, are the reason why oldies/classic hits radio's future is moot.
Now, back to my mp3 so I can hear "Oh Babe, What Would Ya Say" by Hurricane Smith, a top-40 hit played by the legendary WLS Chicago. Will it get airplay in 2007 on an oldies station? Who cares?, I can listen to it on my mp3! So long, radio.

[/quote]
As for the continual negative spin you insist on putting on research and consultants, please consider this: I don't know about you but I can't think of any better way to find out what your listeners like than to get in front of them and ask them what they like, what they don't like, what they're tired of and what they're unfamiliar with. THAT is what research is all about.....As far as consultants go, most stations don't have consultants, so your insistence on them being so evil is pretty much moot.
[/quote]