Has anyone had any experience using Breakaway as a broadcast processor for a FM station? If so, What kind of sound card did you use? Would a 1/8 to BNC adapter work to feed the MPX signal into the transmitter? Working with a station with a terrible audio processor, and would like to install Breakaway for them to improve the sound and ditch the old processor if possible...
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Using Breakaway as a FM Processor/Stereo Encoder
- Thread starter mbatchelor
- Start date
www.stereotool.com is a similar but superior product (I've used them both). Use a Marian Trace Alpha http://www.marian.de/en/products/trace_alpha sound card. They aren't easy to get but find a way to get one (they have a US distributor that rarely has them or you can order from the factory in Europe) if you're using this on a real licensed station--it is absolutely worth the effort. Then get ready to have audio that is in the same league with the big stations and their $10,000 processors.
The Marian card uses a 1/4" TRS output. A simple adapter to give the card a BNC output will make this look just like a commercial processor. The composite does come from the sound card....that takes some getting used to but I'm listening to it right now (and have for a few years) and it sounds just like the big boys.
The Marian card uses a 1/4" TRS output. A simple adapter to give the card a BNC output will make this look just like a commercial processor. The composite does come from the sound card....that takes some getting used to but I'm listening to it right now (and have for a few years) and it sounds just like the big boys.
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Thanks for the tip... I have used Breakaway very successfully to feed an exciter with a built in stereo encoder using simply the onboard sound card on an old Athlon 64 box with a 2GHz Processor and 2GB RAM to feed the on air for a LPFM. Sounds every bit as good as anyone running expensive Omnia or Orban units, IMHO. I'll check out the one you recommend as well. Most of these guys are running small rural operations, so I think they will be happy with a major improvement to the audio chain that is as cheap as possible...
The biggest issue I have with Breakaway is that some male voices sound rough or distorted. The same voices through ST are pristine...they have that "NPR" cleanliness that's hard to accomplish even with some of the big money boxes. ST has been updated countless times (usually every few days) whereas I don't believe Breakaway has been updated since at least 2010. After the Omnia 9 came out, Breakaway seems to have become an orphaned product. That's my opinion...I'm sure others will weigh in on the topic in upcoming days. Fun stuff...enjoy your adventure!
Do you use the Tip/Shield unbalanced or the Tip/Ring balanced to feed the exciter input. Some balanced audio output circuits don't like having one side tied to ground.
I am so sick and tired of people posting about Stereo Tool in threads regarding Breakaway! It happens every single time! What they don't mention about Stereo Tool is that it is a real PC resource hog. You need a crap load of PC resources just to run it.
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I use tip and shield unbalanced. The Trace Alpha is a happy camper that way. Never have tried the other approach.
With all due respect, a PC with tons of available resources is quite cheap to build. I don't see that as a consideration.
As a rule of thumb, never tie a balanced output directly to ground. This can cause excessive current to flow as the chip's ouptut is doing nothing except expending a lot of energy trying to drive ground. Normally, balanced inputs can be tied to ground, but balanced outputs that are not being used should be left floating.
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Thanks for the answers, all.
That is the way I have always done it except in the case of some Aphex equipment as I recall touted having "balanced servo" outputs that could be wired ring to ground. I did not know what type of output the Marian card has.
I would think that any balanced output could be "referenced" to ground through a large capacitance so there would be no DC
current, yet bypass RF, and audio "harmonics" above 15khz.
I can fiind no faults with Breakaway Broadcast, but then I'm not using the low latency version.
I'm totally used to the slight delay, and my voice mike comes in after BBP, using only the ART Pro VLA, which does a fine job of
keeping balance between the Breakaway audio and the downstream mike input.
I can talk over intros, and SEE on a scope that my voice rides over the "music" programming at a perfect level.
You can twist my arm behind my back, and I'm still not going to say anything bad about Breakaway Broadcast Processor.
current, yet bypass RF, and audio "harmonics" above 15khz.
I can fiind no faults with Breakaway Broadcast, but then I'm not using the low latency version.
I'm totally used to the slight delay, and my voice mike comes in after BBP, using only the ART Pro VLA, which does a fine job of
keeping balance between the Breakaway audio and the downstream mike input.
I can talk over intros, and SEE on a scope that my voice rides over the "music" programming at a perfect level.
You can twist my arm behind my back, and I'm still not going to say anything bad about Breakaway Broadcast Processor.
I guess because you're part 15 it doesn't matter that your mic will be grossly overmodulating the TX with only the ART to catch the RMS levels.
That scenario wouldn't work for a licensed station, as there is EQ involved on the processing that wouldn't be there on the mic, and wouldn't meet the NRSC mask.
That scenario wouldn't work for a licensed station, as there is EQ involved on the processing that wouldn't be there on the mic, and wouldn't meet the NRSC mask.
Gosh, that's not a problem, as my oscilliscope easily shows the there's no pinchoff.
You are correct, my part 15 AM audio does not have the intentional introduced frequency distortion commercial high
powered stations are required to. If I wiished to hear the delayed but BBP processed mike audio, that would be so easy, yet annoying.
Once the audio off the server is BBP tamed, the ART VLA does more than a fine job, it's amazing.
But I'll explain again to those who never heard my testimony.
The ART PRO VLA was worth the the 300 dollars, but not "worth writng home about".
It was designed FOR vocal processing in the recording industry, and it's great for a voice, or maybe one instrument, but
has no idea what to "follow" in complex musical waveforms.
I could hear an improvement in average RMS, but no real audio magic.
Introduce BBP control over the audio off the server, and it was incredible, but I could never get the huge old fashioned
big iron swing and thump I was looking for. So I put ART VLA after, in a two step series, one fast clip, the next @3:1
ratio, then pushed hard on output while watching the scope.
Smacking audio magic.
The NRSC "mask" is an abomination.
I was taught that actual "real" protection as defined in the old days by clears, regionals, etc, actually did provide for
15 khz audio.
It was not until later political and economic pressures overcame the original 1927 bandplan that this broke down.
You were supposed to even be in touch with and know the CEs at the station you were co-channel with and maybe even those on adjacents.
I am quoting DE Wiggins as one of my instructors at Valparaiso.
It probably would have been better for AM if Fm had come along much earlier, to provide the exteremly local high frequencies do well.
I would be extremely embarassed to overmodulate.
I do appreciate that I can measure the perfect 150% modulation BBP permits right there on the scope face, something
that was not possible to do with the VLA alone.
And I HAVE tried the BBP set at 7.5 khz.
It's still what was defined as "frequency distortion" as we measured it in the lab on big ancient General Radio oscillators, bridges, etc.
Any intentional adulteration or limitation to the best a technolgy can be deliver is suspect.
It would be like a tire manufacturer being told tthey must now make tires that don't stop well unless you are going in a more or less straight line.
Why should radio have to submit to disregard for proper engineering?
For politcal reasons, stupidity, or the rush to things newer?
I just don't get it.
You are correct, my part 15 AM audio does not have the intentional introduced frequency distortion commercial high
powered stations are required to. If I wiished to hear the delayed but BBP processed mike audio, that would be so easy, yet annoying.
Once the audio off the server is BBP tamed, the ART VLA does more than a fine job, it's amazing.
But I'll explain again to those who never heard my testimony.
The ART PRO VLA was worth the the 300 dollars, but not "worth writng home about".
It was designed FOR vocal processing in the recording industry, and it's great for a voice, or maybe one instrument, but
has no idea what to "follow" in complex musical waveforms.
I could hear an improvement in average RMS, but no real audio magic.
Introduce BBP control over the audio off the server, and it was incredible, but I could never get the huge old fashioned
big iron swing and thump I was looking for. So I put ART VLA after, in a two step series, one fast clip, the next @3:1
ratio, then pushed hard on output while watching the scope.
Smacking audio magic.
The NRSC "mask" is an abomination.
I was taught that actual "real" protection as defined in the old days by clears, regionals, etc, actually did provide for
15 khz audio.
It was not until later political and economic pressures overcame the original 1927 bandplan that this broke down.
You were supposed to even be in touch with and know the CEs at the station you were co-channel with and maybe even those on adjacents.
I am quoting DE Wiggins as one of my instructors at Valparaiso.
It probably would have been better for AM if Fm had come along much earlier, to provide the exteremly local high frequencies do well.
I would be extremely embarassed to overmodulate.
I do appreciate that I can measure the perfect 150% modulation BBP permits right there on the scope face, something
that was not possible to do with the VLA alone.
And I HAVE tried the BBP set at 7.5 khz.
It's still what was defined as "frequency distortion" as we measured it in the lab on big ancient General Radio oscillators, bridges, etc.
Any intentional adulteration or limitation to the best a technolgy can be deliver is suspect.
It would be like a tire manufacturer being told tthey must now make tires that don't stop well unless you are going in a more or less straight line.
Why should radio have to submit to disregard for proper engineering?
For politcal reasons, stupidity, or the rush to things newer?
I just don't get it.
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Mainly, the problem with AM isn't the transmitted bandwith, it's the received bandwidth!!
Audio out to 10k doesn't sound bad, especially on voice.
It's too crowded of a dial right now to allow 15k audio on a practical basis, especially at night. The birdies and whistles would drive anyone nuts.
If the receiver manufacturers implemented 10k/5k radios with sharp skirts in DSP, it would do more for the band than transmitting 15k that only you can hear on the mod monitor.
Tires are rated at different speeds, just as different mediums have optimal frequency responses. In a different time, with less electrical interference, less stations on the dial and better radios, 15k AM would be great. Enforcing the part 15 rules that pertain to CFL's, most electrical devices, modems and of course, the abomination known as BPL would go much further to help AM than extending all stations out to 15k.
I appreciate what you do on a hobby/part 15 basis, but for a real world "all stations on the dial" situation it's not going to work.
And I'll still bet that if you had not a scope, but a mod monitor with a peak flasher, you would see the overshoot on the ART Pro VLA. The scope and especially your eyes don't have the response time to see small excursions/pinch off's. I have one in the rack at the home office, it's an opto-compressor & quasi-limiter if run at its fastest settings, but not a clipper of any sort. Again, in a part 15 situation, some instantaneous overshoots aren't going to matter. A licensed station could not get away with that trick, that was my only point.
Audio out to 10k doesn't sound bad, especially on voice.
It's too crowded of a dial right now to allow 15k audio on a practical basis, especially at night. The birdies and whistles would drive anyone nuts.
If the receiver manufacturers implemented 10k/5k radios with sharp skirts in DSP, it would do more for the band than transmitting 15k that only you can hear on the mod monitor.
Tires are rated at different speeds, just as different mediums have optimal frequency responses. In a different time, with less electrical interference, less stations on the dial and better radios, 15k AM would be great. Enforcing the part 15 rules that pertain to CFL's, most electrical devices, modems and of course, the abomination known as BPL would go much further to help AM than extending all stations out to 15k.
I appreciate what you do on a hobby/part 15 basis, but for a real world "all stations on the dial" situation it's not going to work.
And I'll still bet that if you had not a scope, but a mod monitor with a peak flasher, you would see the overshoot on the ART Pro VLA. The scope and especially your eyes don't have the response time to see small excursions/pinch off's. I have one in the rack at the home office, it's an opto-compressor & quasi-limiter if run at its fastest settings, but not a clipper of any sort. Again, in a part 15 situation, some instantaneous overshoots aren't going to matter. A licensed station could not get away with that trick, that was my only point.
For FM, Breakaway and Stereo Tool can be used as processors... no problem.
The computer debate is a completely different subject... and no issue, in my experience, since I usually don't share the processor computer with other tasks.
Audio cards: Marian Trace Alpha (if you can find it). ESI Julii@ or M-Audio Audiophile 192 series. All can be trimmed to modulate a good, clean, loud and legal signal.
The computer debate is a completely different subject... and no issue, in my experience, since I usually don't share the processor computer with other tasks.
Audio cards: Marian Trace Alpha (if you can find it). ESI Julii@ or M-Audio Audiophile 192 series. All can be trimmed to modulate a good, clean, loud and legal signal.
The M Audio 192 can not be trimmed to reproduce the song Black And White by 3 Dog Night using BBP. I've heard that the result with Stereo Tool is not nearly as bad. BBP will modulate roughly 125-130% playing this track's first several seconds (it has asymmetrical bass that can't be compensated for using BBP's adjustment settings) when using the M Audio card. There are other songs that will also cause overmodulation using that combination. Note that using the Marian Trace Alpha completely tames that song. I swapped extensive emails on this topic with Leif a couple years ago and he was able to duplicate the problem at his end as well. His high confidence that the Trace Alpha would solve the overmodulation is what caused me to seek out this card--it delivered. Based on that variable alone, I can't emphasize strongly enough my preference for the Marian Trace Alpha for any serious broadcast usage.
Fixing the song is easier than fixing the sound card or BBP.
Open it up in an audio editor, remove any DC offset if it has any, and run it through a 50 Hz highpass filter.
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That's fine until the next song and the next song has the problem. There were others but since the first few notes of Black And White were the worst, it made it the easiest one to quote as a torture test. If running the entire music library through the air chain while carefully watching the modulation monitor, making notes of all troublesome songs and manually correcting them is easier than getting a Marian sound card, please proceed. But I do suggest doing those countless hours of observation on a dummy antenna as in the process, illegal over-modulation will occur countless times--unless the modulation is reduced to 70% for the duration of the testing.
Fixing the song is easier than fixing the sound card or BBP.
OK, then name another song which causes the same problem. Because for years now, you've been talking about how "Black and White" causes BBP and your sound card to overmodulate, but I don't recall you ever mentioning any other songs which cause the same problem.
One song could just be a fluke -- such as someone in the CD mastering lab getting carried away with an Aphex "Big Bottom" and putting subharmonics on the track -- but if it's part of a repeatable trend, then you know you've found a legitimate problem with your setup.
DUH, yeah, that's what bob is trying to tell you.The legitimate problem is the M192. !st problem is the output is not DC straight.Even after the mod and tilt adj. the card still caused overshoots on several songs.This is why Leif and Hans both suggest the Marian Trace alpha or Pro as choice number 1. 2nd is the ESI juli which works fine but may require a minor tilt adj. My modded M192 went in the trash where it belongs...
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