Vorbis processors, etc

[OKCRadioGuy]

OK.. I've had another listen to the Vorsis-Wheatstone audio processing stuff. They have made some very significant improvements it seems in their line. Their AP-1000 FM product is nothing short of stunning in it's clean sound and loudness. The AM-5 sounds like no other AM product I've ever heard. I don't hear the grunge normally produced in most modern AM processors. Needless to say they are worth test driving these days. It's interesting how many GOOD processors are out there now, some even at a cheap price like the Omnia One. The high-ended stuff is a real shoot-out at this point IMHO.

 

[OttoM]

OK.. I've had another listen to the Vorsis-Wheatstone audio processing stuff. They have made some very significant improvements it seems in their line.

Where did you have your "listen"? To an actual on-the-air signal or on a set of cans in the North Hall of the LVCC?

 

[LARadio790]

I'm afraid I have to concur. They've made some serious improvements over what I heard before. All of their FM boxes sound incredible now, but the most shocking was their new AM box. The AM processors I've heard and used all sound weird - swishy, harsh, busy, and rough. The Vorsis box is really smooth and you can tell it will be loud as h*ll on the dial. They've done some interesting things I've never seen before like when you change the AM output bandwidth the ten band limiter recalculates its crossover filters so that you always have ten bands of work being done in whatever bandwidth you decide to use. No swishing either and that surprised me. It really does sound sweet. Yes, I know, it was only on headphones but go listen to other AM processors the same way and tell me what you hear!

Did anyone see their new little box with six processing modes built in for under $3k list? I took a listen and was surprised by that one as well. They've really improved things since my last listen - I wouldn't have given them workbench room before but now I've GOT to try one.

 

[littlejohn]

The state of the art increases at the power of suppliers. And the competition is good for everybody. If I were building the things, I'd worry that my low bux ones were stealing my hi bux thunder. Which is very common in digital electronics in every industry. It can only be good for us the users.

 

[DoctorWu]

Right on, LJ. Competition is very good for us. There's a lot of excellent boxes out there right now, in nearly every price range.

Sound is only one part of the equation, though. I can make nearly anything sound good, but I always have to factor in what sort of support is available, too. Some co's are better than others, and some only treat you nice until they've got your cash. Good thing to know before you give it to them ;D

 

[littlejohn]

Actually, I think some of the suppliers are having an epiphany over service. Harris has gone overboard in the last few couple of weeks to figure a fix for a problem we have. They've invested time and dime to get it corrected. It is a pleasant change.

I susoect this will be the norm as time passes, service has become the deciding factor in the buy more and more. People are taking your approach and it's beginning to be noiticed.

 

[RealityCheckr]

Actually, I think some of the suppliers are having an epiphany over service. Harris has gone overboard in the last few couple of weeks to figure a fix for a problem we have. They've invested time and dime to get it corrected. It is a pleasant change.

I suspect this will be the norm as time passes, service has become the deciding factor in the buy more and more. People are taking your approach and it's beginning to be noiticed.

Of course support should be part of the equation. And it is always good to hear of improvements in our industry. But all too often people simply buy on price.

This is a very "sticky wicket" as the NEED for support is growing due to a variety of factors:

-Complete lack of time for engineers to do their jobs

-Frequent lack of knowledge by engineers, even in major markets

-An unwillingness for some engineers to learn (which of course takes time and interest), so solving one problem does not aid in the next problem (largely due to the above two factors).

-New technologies

As someone that has worked for several manufacturers, I can tell you that the need for support is growing rapidly. Email support seems like a good idea, but generally costs even more because it is far less likely to result in an immediate solution.

I spoke to a colleague at NAB who told me about customers expecting the manufacturer to some how magically fix telephone line problems, instead of letting support help them work with the Telco. And when the customer refuses to contact the telco and get the problem fixed it is the manufacturer that gets blamed when the PD gets mad.

Overall, our industry has support unlike (read better than) most industries out there. Computers are just one example (you pay for support there, and often it is still bad). Yes, at any given time some manufacturers are doing a better job than others. But one BIG reason why support may have declined the past 5 years or so is that support engineers are so busy holding hands of engineers that are unwilling (or unable) to do their jobs.

So, let me ask a rhetorical question, are you willing to actually pay more for service? Are you wiling to accept an even wider gap between "consumer" and "professional" grade equipment?

From what I see is that people are succumbing to the desire for cheaper, for example with $500 STLs running on $50/mo xDSL without regard for professionalism.

Where does it end? ???

 

[fm-engineer]

Actually, I think some of the suppliers are having an epiphany over service. Harris has gone overboard in the last few couple of weeks to figure a fix for a problem we have. They've invested time and dime to get it corrected. It is a pleasant change.

I suspect this will be the norm as time passes, service has become the deciding factor in the buy more and more. People are taking your approach and it's beginning to be noiticed.

Of course support should be part of the equation. And it is always good to hear of improvements in our industry. But all too often people simply buy on price.

This is a very "sticky wicket" as the NEED for support is growing due to a variety of factors:

-Complete lack of time for engineers to do their jobs

-Frequent lack of knowledge by engineers, even in major markets

-An unwillingness for some engineers to learn (which of course takes time and interest), so solving one problem does not aid in the next problem (largely due to the above two factors).

-New technologies

Where does it end? ???

I agree with you. Under new technologies, SMC's make things difficult to troubleshoot or repair. Most boards are throw-away. The other factors are all related. We don't have the time that we used to have. Therefore, we call Harris, Nautel, etc. to get some tips on what to look for (in order to save time) Most of us are capable of troubleshooting without support. As far as engineers go, well, that's a deep subject. I are educated with BS and MS degrees, but that's not what wins contracts. Believe me, there are BSEE graduates that cannot solder or operate an ole fashion dual trace. The radio engineering experience (serving since 1986 for me) usually is enough to get the contract. When something new comes along that will ultimately put me behind schedule, I sometimes have an unwillingness to learn. We all have to take some of the blame. Overworked, underpaid, and not appreciated.

 

[littlejohn]

Overworked, underpaid and underappreciated? You're working in the wrong place(s) or on the wrong job.
Certainly different work today. As you point out, current manufacturing technology nearly precludes repair beyond the board level. If what you do is troubleshoot and swap boards or return the box to the maker, you can do it for more stations since it can be done quicker. We maintain four, where fifteen years agoe, the same pair of us maintained two. Which had 8 Tomcat cart machines in the air studio, and three CD palyers. Routine maintenance on a lot of stuff is no longer required. Which frankly suite me fine, >that< was the drudge which nobody appreciated. Build an HD plant? - you betcha, love it. The fun part of the job.
The road to appreciation is the same as it always was. Someone - I think maybe John Marino of the NAB - long ago pointed out, most of the employees have no idea what we do or why or how long it takes. Rather than try to explain, it is easier and quicker to be sure you've done something visible for each department in the place every week or so. Show the sales type how to run the paperless fax system.... takes five minutes and s/he's your bud for the month. Etc.
Underpaid? Well, two replies. One is, if your prime interest in this life is monetary income, go into the sales side of the business. It can be quite lucrative. The second is, sell your time for what it's worth. If you are proficient in the art, you can make a reasonable living out of it. Simply sidestep the outfits who want to cheap you. They get exactly what they pay for, I can cite examples as can you. The guy who pays reasonably is the one who gets the proficiency.
You can always buy a car or boat doing sideline work.... it's going begging. I got out of weekend work by jacking the price till I only get a job every month or three. Which is the amount I want, and it's paid reasonably. The rest of the time I'm probably off at the dog show - and I found a way to make back gas and lodging costs for the shows.
Bottom line - when it quits being fun, I'll quit doing it. Hasn't happened yet.

 

[fm-engineer]

I try to keep 4-6 stations for full engineering work, the other ten or so just for RF. Carts; been there, done that, along with tone arms, AR1000's, 50-50's, and AM-FM proofs. You're right, routine maintenance is not as difficult as it once was. You would be (are) surprised how much dust can get into computer or transmitter in a year's time. I still recommend quarterly maintenance on all transmitters, but many owners could care less. I remember owners visiting transmitter sites years ago. I can name three or four who couldn't find there way there if their life depended on it. The last three or four years I have moved my business mostly to the medium market level. Underpaid; I was just bitching. I could charge more for my services, but sometimes I get concerned with the way this economy is now. I lost a contract in central PA last year at a mom and pop. They had just bought a new automation system and were very impressed with the local IT guy. A bad storm rolled through and took out the power rock transmitter. The guy finally called me after four days of being off the air. When I arrived, the IT guy was inside the power rock transmitter with sears VOM. Thank God the bleeds were in good shape. The IT guy was amused when I showed him the shorting sticks. I think the IT guy is still the "chief engineer," and he has at least 15,000 reasons why he should not have that job! A few months back I added a fuel surcharge when my contracts expired. It had to be done. Radio has taken a hit in the last ten years, but I'm not ready to quit yet

Overworked, underpaid and underappreciated? You're working in the wrong place(s) or on the wrong job.
Certainly different work today. As you point out, current manufacturing technology nearly precludes repair beyond the board level. If what you do is troubleshoot and swap boards or return the box to the maker, you can do it for more stations since it can be done quicker. We maintain four, where fifteen years agoe, the same pair of us maintained two. Which had 8 Tomcat cart machines in the air studio, and three CD palyers. Routine maintenance on a lot of stuff is no longer required. Which frankly suite me fine, >that< was the drudge which nobody appreciated. Build an HD plant? - you betcha, love it. The fun part of the job.
The road to appreciation is the same as it always was. Someone - I think maybe John Marino of the NAB - long ago pointed out, most of the employees have no idea what we do or why or how long it takes. Rather than try to explain, it is easier and quicker to be sure you've done something visible for each department in the place every week or so. Show the sales type how to run the paperless fax system.... takes five minutes and s/he's your bud for the month. Etc.
Underpaid? Well, two replies. One is, if your prime interest in this life is monetary income, go into the sales side of the business. It can be quite lucrative. The second is, sell your time for what it's worth. If you are proficient in the art, you can make a reasonable living out of it. Simply sidestep the outfits who want to cheap you. They get exactly what they pay for, I can cite examples as can you. The guy who pays reasonably is the one who gets the proficiency.
You can always buy a car or boat doing sideline work.... it's going begging. I got out of weekend work by jacking the price till I only get a job every month or three. Which is the amount I want, and it's paid reasonably. The rest of the time I'm probably off at the dog show - and I found a way to make back gas and lodging costs for the shows.
Bottom line - when it quits being fun, I'll quit doing it. Hasn't happened yet.

 

[littlejohn]

Jack's Pet Rock is hardly the box for the high voltage neophyte to be playing around in. It was an excellent design, but it would hurt you if you didn't respect the cathode voltage in the thing. But dint they sound good. 15KHz audio and that radio would do it without histrionics or intermod. Headroom for days and days.

I wage slave these days, and sideline for beer and dog show entry fees. There's probably more money in contracting than in single employer employment, but I purely hate the paperwork. As to gas costs, my commute is currently 70 miles roundtrip on a bus which costs me $5.40 a day, plus 14 miles to ride. I can stand it.

And I've become a regular beer supplier for the IT guy, the radios are giant computers now anyway. We run the whole place as a bitstream and let him 'splain the intracacies of I.P. and the like.

 

[RealityCheckr]

Overworked, underpaid and underappreciated? You're working in the wrong place(s) or on the wrong job.
<snip>
Underpaid? Well, two replies. <snip> The second is, sell your time for what it's worth. If you are proficient in the art, you can make a reasonable living out of it. Simply sidestep the outfits who want to cheap you. They get exactly what they pay for, I can cite examples as can you. The guy who pays reasonably is the one who gets the proficiency.
<snip>
Bottom line - when it quits being fun, I'll quit doing it. Hasn't happened yet.

Not to be b1tch!ng but manufacturers don't have the option sidestepping the companies that don't hire capable engineers. But doubling or tripling the number of support guys is pretty painful. So the real engineers naturally get impatient when they can't get through.

Hand holding is fine too, just so long as the person on the other end of the line is listening and learning rather than getting irritated.

The worst is he people whom the only skill is finger pointing.

I don't know the answers. But I do know it is getting worse.

 

[littlejohn]

I had an ongoing conversation with tone of the principals of a Large Equipment Manufacturer about this a month or so ago. They, as I'm sure every other manufacturer, are addressing the problem. And the first step was/is identify the sub - problems, the expertise of the caller being a major one. I'm waiting until I have to call their field service again, to see what changes appear to me.
It is a two - way street though. If the manufacturer wants his stuff to remain proprietary, and some do, he is gnna have to support it totally.