Wasted 50KW Stations

[vibe]

OK, maybe I am deviating from the topic but aren't all 50kw signals unnecessary? Since those original allocations demographics have changed. I love to DX but am more concerned about safety. Since people have moved to the sunbelt areas and many of those geezers (myself incl) grew up on AM why aren't there more 25kw sataions in areas that get hammered by hurricanes, tornadoes, and whatever?
In the age of the internet, why do the big cities have such a proliferation of 50 kw signals? Just because they were 1st 80 yrs ago doesn't mean they should be 1st forever.
So I'm saying that at least 1/2 of the 50kw are wasted becase they could be better served elsewhere.
Power down to 25kw and save lives!!! (and property).

 

[davideduardo]

OK, maybe I am deviating from the topic but aren't all 50kw signals unnecessary?

No, they are more needed than ever. That is because very few metros can be covered today by low power stations at any place on the dial due to high interference levels from computers, CFL's, machinery, dirty power lines, etc.

Since those original allocations demographics have changed.

More than that, metros have expanded with suburban sprawl following W.W. II to the extent that most stations don't fully cover their metro... one example is Cleveland, with only one station that covers the metro day and night, and DC where none do!

The FCC never saw that, and never thought that 50 kw was actually very low power for AM by world standards.

I love to DX but am more concerned about safety. Since people have moved to the sunbelt areas and many of those geezers (myself incl) grew up on AM why aren't there more 25kw sataions in areas that get hammered by hurricanes, tornadoes, and whatever?

Most AM assignments were made before 1940, and the big growth markets were pretty small in 1940.

In the age of the internet, why do the big cities have such a proliferation of 50 kw signals? Just because they were 1st 80 yrs ago doesn't mean they should be 1st forever.

The big cities need 50 kw to cover the metro. In fact, many big city 50's don't even cover all the metro well.

 

[mimo]

David Eduardo wrote:

"The big cities need 50 kw to cover the metro. In fact, many big city 50's don't even cover all the metro well."

WPHT is an example. Granted it's at 1210 and the lower powered 5k stations lower on the dial get out better, but it's a station that many complain does not give adequate coverage to it's metro area.

In many cities 50Kw is needed to just be HEARD, and that was before all thes CFL bulbs and computers were so commonplace. I remember back in the 90's WLS radio would say on air that the station often comes in better outside the city than it does within. Overhead lines, tunnels, elevated trains, they all do their share to limit reception of AM signals...funny thing though, I've been in more tunnels where AM stayed in than FM.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

IMO, stations built near the coast that direct a lot of their power over the water are wasting their 50kW. If I had my way, very few stations, if any at all, would have a field strength of more than 0.05mV/m at 1km from the shore.

Also, I think the FCC fell asleep at the switch when they didn't seriously crack down on unintentional RFI. IMO, the limit should be 0.001nV/km measured at the exterior surface of the device, if not less.

Maybe I have my numbers wrong on the previous two examples. In example one, you shouldn't be able to hear the station at all about 3.2km from the shore even with a high-grade professional receiver and a specifically-tuned longwire antenna, and in example two, even with nothing else on that frequency at all, even with equipment that costs over $250, the RFI should be absolutely undetectable when the antenna is in direct contact with the device in question. For an "open" device, I guess the distance could be changed to 1mm from the device.

 

[davideduardo]

IMO, stations built near the coast that direct a lot of their power over the water are wasting their 50kW. If I had my way, very few stations, if any at all, would have a field strength of more than 0.05mV/m at 1km from the shore.

Many stations of all power levels use the ocean to release higher than normal power levels without interferring with anyone. Since most US metros on the coast have grown at a higher rate than inland cities, stations that locate "behind" the city shoot powerful lobes across the metro and on to sea. That way they get the signal intensity they need to be listened to without interfering with other stations.

 

[schmave]

That's sort of the case with KTRH here in Houston, which by necessity directs much of its signal over the Gulf. It has to null fairly deeply to the north, so the lobe it ends up putting out over Houston and to the south, west and southwest is massive. 740 is such a crowded channel that KTRH really doesn't have a choice. And as it turns out, its massive signal is for the most part perfect for a city that's grown in such a sprawling manner (except for the northern suburbs, whose growth wasn't foreseen years ago and where I've been told 740 is not well heard after dark).

 

[pianoplayer88key]

How is it that the FCC allowed manmade noise to get out of hand? IMO, the level of manmade noise in the middle of a metro area at 2pm should be no different than the level of noise out in a field 500 miles away from even the smallest town in the early 1900s. What happened? Is the FCC not enforcing the rules, or are the rules too lenient?

 

[davideduardo]

How is it that the FCC allowed manmade noise to get out of hand? IMO, the level of manmade noise in the middle of a metro area at 2pm should be no different than the level of noise out in a field 500 miles away from even the smallest town in the early 1900s. What happened? Is the FCC not enforcing the rules, or are the rules too lenient?

It's been 50 or 60 years since the FCC paid attention to noise that interfered with AM. In the 50's, a noisy power line would be fixed with a quick call to the power company. Today, they do nothing. Flourescent lights, computers, CFLs and all kinds of things like many cell phones also add to this. It's not going to change.

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

How is it that the FCC allowed manmade noise to get out of hand? IMO, the level of manmade noise in the middle of a metro area at 2pm should be no different than the level of noise out in a field 500 miles away from even the smallest town in the early 1900s. What happened? Is the FCC not enforcing the rules, or are the rules too lenient?

It's been 50 or 60 years since the FCC paid attention to noise that interfered with AM. In the 50's, a noisy power line would be fixed with a quick call to the power company. Today, they do nothing. Flourescent lights, computers, CFLs and all kinds of things like many cell phones also add to this. It's not going to change.

That's why AM radio needs another band to do digital RIGHT. Either something like the channel 5 and 6 TV band or maybe even worthless low-band TV like 2-4 might be better than the current IBUZ standard that doesn't really help the situation. What's from 1700 to 1800? Could that be taken for localized DRM broadcasting or IBUZ in pure digital mode? I would think it would make a pretty nice service if it wasn't adjacent to the host AM signal. With the addition of a nice diplexer into an AM system a smaller digital only transmitter could be added. Those that already own IBUZ equipment could change frequencies on their newer IBUZ transmitter for the digital part, add the diplexer, and use their backup as the main again in many cases. The best thing of all is it would work, unlike the current arrangement. Why hasn't the industry tried to force the issue and get SOMETHING that works instead of the current arrangement for AM?

 

[DeadElvis]

> What's from 1700 to 1800?

Not much. Allegedly some mobile, radio location, etc.

But, that's not the end of the question. The whole sliver would not be open to broadcast. A ham band starts at 1800 KHz, and y'all can't have that. 1780, or so, would be the top.

DE

 

[davideduardo]

That's why AM radio needs another band to do digital RIGHT.

Receiver manufacturers continue to put lousy AM sections in radios because they know very few consumers care about AM. Pure digital did not work in Canada, even with the existing FMs participating. The current mostly 55+ programming on AM, and the two-thirds of all Americans who do not even use AM mean nobody would make receivers.

 

[AckDX]

Here is one:

KXEN 1010 AM out of St. Louis. Puts a monster signal out during the day and at night, it shrinks down into nothing. Doing a band scan in St. Peters,MO at night has KXEN gone.

 

[tomservo]

The only ones I can contribute are the ones from the DC thread:

WCPC 940 Houston, Mississippi.

First off, the three tower array dwarfs anything else for miles around and yet the signal just ain't that great, probably due to poor ground conductivity. I'm 46 miles due west and the signal is too weak to be useful. It's not close enough to any big city (Tupelo is about 30 miles away) to be a major player and is basically serving an area that a well-done 5kw could handle. A LPFM went on the air a while back in Houston that covers the entire city and then some, with the same programming (religious) as the AM.

WCRV 640 Memphis, Tennessee.

Since folks are dismissing some big sticks because they carry corporate syndicated right-wing talk, I reserve the right to complain about WCRV. This Bott Broadcasting religious outfit has a monster day signal, possibly one of the best of the south outside of Texas. It's stopped my car stereo's seek function well over 100 miles from the transmitter site, and have gotten decent reception in the far-south suburbs of St. Louis, over 200 miles north.

That said, at night it doesn't cover the entire compact Memphis metro and is just a waste of space with the programming. Religious programming is so prevalent in this region that the station could be better utilized with another speech program like local regional talk or something.

Oh! One more.

WSPZ 690 Birmingham, Alabama.

This once mighty top 40 rocker (as WVOK, the voice of Dixie) did well as the city's only sport-talk outlet and carried local college sports, to boot. Now it's relegated to second-banana status to a rimshot FM from the Tuscaloosa area, which took WSPZ's programming away. This mighty 50kw'er is left with one local show (?) and canned Fox Sports programming. And much like the Memphis station, this one doesn't quite cover the entire metro at night, although it does a decent job in the core areas.

Seems the logical thing to do would be toss the sports programming to co-owned WAPI 1070 and move it's competitive talk format to 690, giving it a much better signal than area rivals WERC 960, with a solid 5kw.

WAPI could make this list as well due to having the worst coverage I've ever experienced for a 50kw station. WDIA in Memphis, also on 1070, has a much larger coverage area; even WSB 750 in ground conductivity-plauged Atlanta does better. Hell, WLAC 1510 in Nashville probably does better. I'm sure it has nothing to do with using the same antenna system from 1929. :

 

[Icangelp]

The only ones I can contribute are the ones from the DC thread:

WCPC 940 Houston, Mississippi.

First off, the three tower array dwarfs anything else for miles around and yet the signal just ain't that great, probably due to poor ground conductivity. I'm 46 miles due west and the signal is too weak to be useful. It's not close enough to any big city (Tupelo is about 30 miles away) to be a major player and is basically serving an area that a well-done 5kw could handle. A LPFM went on the air a while back in Houston that covers the entire city and then some, with the same programming (religious) as the AM.

WCRV 640 Memphis, Tennessee.

Since folks are dismissing some big sticks because they carry corporate syndicated right-wing talk, I reserve the right to complain about WCRV. This Bott Broadcasting religious outfit has a monster day signal, possibly one of the best of the south outside of Texas. It's stopped my car stereo's seek function well over 100 miles from the transmitter site, and have gotten decent reception in the far-south suburbs of St. Louis, over 200 miles north.

That said, at night it doesn't cover the entire compact Memphis metro and is just a waste of space with the programming. Religious programming is so prevalent in this region that the station could be better utilized with another speech program like local regional talk or something.

Oh! One more.

WSPZ 690 Birmingham, Alabama.

This once mighty top 40 rocker (as WVOK, the voice of Dixie) did well as the city's only sport-talk outlet and carried local college sports, to boot. Now it's relegated to second-banana status to a rimshot FM from the Tuscaloosa area, which took WSPZ's programming away. This mighty 50kw'er is left with one local show (?) and canned Fox Sports programming. And much like the Memphis station, this one doesn't quite cover the entire metro at night, although it does a decent job in the core areas.

Seems the logical thing to do would be toss the sports programming to co-owned WAPI 1070 and move it's competitive talk format to 690, giving it a much better signal than area rivals WERC 960, with a solid 5kw.

WAPI could make this list as well due to having the worst coverage I've ever experienced for a 50kw station. WDIA in Memphis, also on 1070, has a much larger coverage area; even WSB 750 in ground conductivity-plauged Atlanta does better. Hell, WLAC 1510 in Nashville probably does better. I'm sure it has nothing to do with using the same antenna system from 1929. :

WCPC was one of my favorite dx catches right from the time I started dx'ing in the eary 60's, and is to this vary day. It booms in right at local sunset during parts of the year here in Southwest Ohio. Nice to hear that strong signal from such a little town in MS. Got to respect the fact they have stayed in business all these years with basically the same programming.

I believe WAPI is non directional days and WDIA is directional, so naturally WDIA's signal would be very strong south towards Mississippi where most of its signal is directed. Drove down to the panhandle last year and listened to WAPI for quite a while. Nice to finally hear a legend of the south.

 

[tomservo]

I believe WAPI is non directional days and WDIA is directional, so naturally WDIA's signal would be very strong south towards Mississippi where most of its signal is directed. Drove down to the panhandle last year and listened to WAPI for quite a while. Nice to finally hear a legend of the south.

You're right; WDIA has lobes to the north and south, moreso to the south. WAPI still has a decent amount of local programming as far as I know and it is indeed a legend, but sometimes legends need their transmitter plants modernized. If you look at the coverage map of WAPI on Radio-Locator, cut the red "local" circle in half and that's about as far as they reach static-free (how scientific, eh?)

WERC, 5kW at 960, meets or beats WAPI pretty much everywhere I used to listen, especially in the important over-the-mountain suburbs.

I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than I could chime in with other reasons besides age for WAPI's poor coverage. Their two towers are located in the Forestdale area of northwest Birmingham up on a hill, maybe the ground conductivity is poor there.

 

[davideduardo]

If you look at the coverage map of WAPI on Radio-Locator, cut the red "local" circle in half and that's about as far as they reach static-free (how scientific, eh?)

Actually in most metros, the red inner circle on rado-locator, reduced by anout 25%, is the effective contour.

WERC, 5kW at 960, meets or beats WAPI pretty much everywhere I used to listen, especially in the important over-the-mountain suburbs.

ERC pushes signal south, so those areas benefit. ERC, unless they moved, is on nice flat land and has a good ground.

[/quote]I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than I could chime in with other reasons besides age for WAPI's poor coverage. Their two towers are located in the Forestdale area of northwest Birmingham up on a hill, maybe the ground conductivity is poor there.[/quote]

The WAPI site is, by virtue of being on a hill, a lot worse than ERC's. When I was PD of ERC 35 years ago, we thought we had the better signal.

 

[davideduardo]

Seems the logical thing to do would be toss the sports programming to co-owned WAPI 1070 and move it's competitive talk format to 690, giving it a much better signal than area rivals WERC 960, with a solid 5kw.

That would really not make much of a difference. Both 1070 and 960 cover 90% of the population of the metro, and 690's bad night signal would be harmful in the months with the earliest nightfall and the latest sunrise.

 

[tomservo]

That would really not make much of a difference. Both 1070 and 960 cover 90% of the population of the metro, and 690's bad night signal would be harmful in the months with the earliest nightfall and the latest sunrise.

I was referring to their day signals only (WERC is non-d days). You're 100% about ERC at night, though. 690 from my experience actually did well at night for such little power, but it was a pain east of Trussville or Irondale.

BTW, I had no idea you were ever PD at 960 - that's cool. 8)

 

[davideduardo]

BTW, I had no idea you were ever PD at 960 - that's cool. 8)

Yep, when Mooney Brodcasting bought what had been WBRC AM & FM from Taft, they asked me to move from Puerto Rico to B'ham. I was PD of WERC when Doug Layton did mornings and called the Crimson Tide games. Neil Miller, who for many years had done a kids show on TV, was our evening guy. I hired a jock off of WKRG in Mobile to do afternoons, and he was Jan Jeffries, now national PD at Cumulus. Frank Giardina was Music Director, and he went on to program and be an engineer for several stations.

I also switched the FM format from automated oldies to Top 40 up against WSGN (with Dees in the morning, pre-duck era), who we beat fairly rapidly. Naturally, we signed on the format with Sweet Home Alabama!

 

[ALRocker]

Did ERC ever run 500kw? I have heard they did for a short time. If they did they must of had about a 200 mile coverage area. I listened to ERC-FM quite a bit. Still have the jingle in my head.