I offered some ideas which is more than I've heard from either you or David.
Just keep doing things the way you've always done them, I'm sure it will work out great.
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- Thread starter AceBiscuits
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I offered some ideas which is more than I've heard from either you or David.
Just keep doing things the way you've always done them, I'm sure it will work out great.
Geez. Not a way to talk to the legends man.
I've offered your ideas to advertisers. They say you should pay for your own music.
It's their money. They spend it anyway they want. The reason why there are 12 minute commercial blocks is because that's what they want.
I'm heading out to another music conference where I will be told that the cost of music is going up. They want higher royalties. That means all of the streaming companies and Sirius will be passing those costs to you. Everyone wants more money.
The reason is that there have only been perhaps a dozen new formats in the last 60 years. There is a reason for that, which is that most radio listeners like familiar songs that they like.
Don't you think that there are hundreds of managers and programmers trying to think of ways to be better and different?
Heck, even P&G... who research everything... fails with about half of the new products they introduce.
I've come up´with just a couple of rather original formats in my whole career. That puts me in a very, very exclusive group. I've also had some formats fail and been quick to kill them, as well as changing formats that had reached "end of life".
Heck, even formats like "Jack" are mostly modifications of existing formats, not entirely original ones.
I can agree with most of that but the conversation was actually about the length of commercial breaks. It started because Big A said:
My point is, that being true, 12+ minute commercial breaks are killing radio now and are going to be unsustainable in the long run, especially since ad lengths on competing platforms are so much less offensive.
Big A wrapped up that exchange by doubling down on the 12 minute breaks. To me, this represents a very flawed corporate point of view. Even if you don't like my suggestions (and note that I'm not being paid to be the problem solver), it is definitely a problem that is only going to get worse. Someday, someone in the industry is going to have to be visionary enough to confront it.
For NOW. There was a time when there were fewer commercials on FM. That was an advantage over the more popular AM at the time. But as the audience shifted, the advertising increased. I predict that with music streaming royalties increasing at the rate we're seeing, you will either have more commercials or higher subscription rates, or both. Nothing stays the same.
I don't see it as a "corporate" point of view. It's just the reality of the situation regardless of ownership. Someone has to own these radio stations. Given the legal complexities, even billionaires like Cats set up corporations to run their radio stations.
Who was listening this morning at 830? They played wake me up before you go and abruptly cut it off halfway and started playing dont stop believing. Pretty odd...
MassMusicMan
Banned
Hundreds? Oh God, no. Maybe a couple dozen at best.
>>>Heck, even formats like "Jack" are mostly modifications of existing formats, not entirely original ones.<<<
What needs to happen for radio in general are NEW formats that are entirely new, at least for the new demographics that radio needs to reach.
Regarding advertising, has there been any formal study into ad retention? Once on a road trip I listened to an extended commercial break, and after the 5th or 6th ad, I started to go into mental fatigue. In routine listening, it is not uncommon for me (and I am sure many others) that listening goes into disengaged mode where the wah-wah-wah voice is heard, but the message does not get through. Most importantly, younger demos won't listen at all and will hit the app button for commercial free entertainment alternatives. When I asked my 19 year old niece about her listening habits, that's what she told me she does. If a study has been done, and results demonstrated that retention of messages is very low, how does the advertising world square that with clients who spend a decent amount of money on radio?
Regarding programming, although the PUR figure is high, doesn't that just mean that people listen to SOME radio, not necessarily a lot of radio? Younger demos, such as my niece, listen to Bobby Bones for new music, but then are off to her downloaded phone once his show is done or when the first commercial break hits afterward. I am not sure there is anything on the air currently that will bring those gen Z'rs back later in the day. People here have access to real ratings data. I would bet that Gen Z listening drops off sharply after morning drive, and does not bounce back.
As I have advocated in many different posts, in my opinion spoken word is the future for radio. The spoken word has to be decidedly different from what is on the air today, and something that will bring the younger demoes back to the terrestrial table. Music alone will not and can not do it anymore, as there are too many commercial free options. 'Podcast' radio cannot do it unless the same type of podcast is done at the same time everyday. Otherwise it is the equivalent of a 'To Be Announced' entry in a television listing, or one of those completely brokered AM radio stations.
Ideas I have presented before need to be considered by those who control or influence the levers of commercial radio. Some of them have been:
- Non Political General Talk - figure out why/how it works in some markets and not in others. Adjust and attempt elsewhere and refine the concept.
- Female Friendly Sports Radio - admittedly, I don't listen to sports talk too much, but whenever I do, it is always guys talking to guys. There are women interested in sports. There is even a women's hockey league starting up. Are women intimidated from participating in the offerings at WFAN?
- Quiz and Audience Participation programming - Radio can be very personal to the communities they serve, and the opportunity for listeners to get their big 'show biz break' could get them to tune in. Competition between area high schools could differentiate existing music stations or could help in creating something entirely new. Prizes don't need to be outrageous, and advertisers might like opportunities. Radio Clusters could compete amongst themselves - who have the smartest listeners Lite, Q104, or Z100?
- Radio Drama or especially Comedy - book reading is already being done by actors at a studio in New Jersey. It is not too much of a stretch to add sound effects and music.
- Variety programming - Something I thought of this weekend - who is hotter than hot? Taylor Swift. What would it take to engage her in a nationwide show that would give her a new way to engage her fans? Taylor sings a song, Taylor interacts with a guest. A skit is performed. Taylor sings again. What do you want to bet that Swiftees will listen? What do you want to bet advertisers would be lined up to advertise? It could be Podcasted on the web, but I bet it wouldn't get nearly the interest or ad dollars.
These would be different from what is on the air now, and would give Gen Z a reason to listen after 10AM. They would cost money. Setting debt aside, radio companies are profitable, but music as the main event is in terminal decline. Now is the time to get Gen Z thinking of radio as something neat.
What needs to happen for radio in general are NEW formats that are entirely new, at least for the new demographics that radio needs to reach.
Regarding advertising, has there been any formal study into ad retention? Once on a road trip I listened to an extended commercial break, and after the 5th or 6th ad, I started to go into mental fatigue. In routine listening, it is not uncommon for me (and I am sure many others) that listening goes into disengaged mode where the wah-wah-wah voice is heard, but the message does not get through. Most importantly, younger demos won't listen at all and will hit the app button for commercial free entertainment alternatives. When I asked my 19 year old niece about her listening habits, that's what she told me she does. If a study has been done, and results demonstrated that retention of messages is very low, how does the advertising world square that with clients who spend a decent amount of money on radio?
Regarding programming, although the PUR figure is high, doesn't that just mean that people listen to SOME radio, not necessarily a lot of radio? Younger demos, such as my niece, listen to Bobby Bones for new music, but then are off to her downloaded phone once his show is done or when the first commercial break hits afterward. I am not sure there is anything on the air currently that will bring those gen Z'rs back later in the day. People here have access to real ratings data. I would bet that Gen Z listening drops off sharply after morning drive, and does not bounce back.
As I have advocated in many different posts, in my opinion spoken word is the future for radio. The spoken word has to be decidedly different from what is on the air today, and something that will bring the younger demoes back to the terrestrial table. Music alone will not and can not do it anymore, as there are too many commercial free options. 'Podcast' radio cannot do it unless the same type of podcast is done at the same time everyday. Otherwise it is the equivalent of a 'To Be Announced' entry in a television listing, or one of those completely brokered AM radio stations.
Ideas I have presented before need to be considered by those who control or influence the levers of commercial radio. Some of them have been:
- Non Political General Talk - figure out why/how it works in some markets and not in others. Adjust and attempt elsewhere and refine the concept.
- Female Friendly Sports Radio - admittedly, I don't listen to sports talk too much, but whenever I do, it is always guys talking to guys. There are women interested in sports. There is even a women's hockey league starting up. Are women intimidated from participating in the offerings at WFAN?
- Quiz and Audience Participation programming - Radio can be very personal to the communities they serve, and the opportunity for listeners to get their big 'show biz break' could get them to tune in. Competition between area high schools could differentiate existing music stations or could help in creating something entirely new. Prizes don't need to be outrageous, and advertisers might like opportunities. Radio Clusters could compete amongst themselves - who have the smartest listeners Lite, Q104, or Z100?
- Radio Drama or especially Comedy - book reading is already being done by actors at a studio in New Jersey. It is not too much of a stretch to add sound effects and music.
- Variety programming - Something I thought of this weekend - who is hotter than hot? Taylor Swift. What would it take to engage her in a nationwide show that would give her a new way to engage her fans? Taylor sings a song, Taylor interacts with a guest. A skit is performed. Taylor sings again. What do you want to bet that Swiftees will listen? What do you want to bet advertisers would be lined up to advertise? It could be Podcasted on the web, but I bet it wouldn't get nearly the interest or ad dollars.
These would be different from what is on the air now, and would give Gen Z a reason to listen after 10AM. They would cost money. Setting debt aside, radio companies are profitable, but music as the main event is in terminal decline. Now is the time to get Gen Z thinking of radio as something neat.
Yes, lots of them. Some done by Edison Research, some done by various independent groups, and some done by the advertisers themselves. Advertisers know what they're buying. Everybody knows the situation. Nobody has any other way to pay for radio other than advertising or donations.
As I said in another thread, everything you hear on commercial radio is based on attracting advertising. The formats, the music selection, the break structure is all built around advertising. If there was another way to pay for radio, there would still be 60s and 70s music on the radio. There would be larger playlists. There would likely be DJs who would talk about the music (if there was money to pay them).
Lots of people have lots of ideas for innovative new formats. Most of them better than your list. But like you, no one has any new innovative ways to pay for them. So radio sticks with formats that attract advertisers. A lot of the ideas on your list, such as radio quiz shows and drama, are being done right now on public radio.
It would take lots of money. She would have to own all the content, and get paid for the content creation. It would have to be international, because she's an international star. She makes all the decisions on anything that has her name on it. So she hires all the staff. Right now, Garth Brooks has a similar deal with TuneIn. He previously had that deal with Sirius. Truthfully, Taylor doesn't need new ways to engage with her fans. She's been doing it since she was 12, first with MySpace, then with her own site. When she wants to engage with her fans, she uses Facebook Live. She's not looking for more work, and what you're talking about is more work.
Are there any general numbers you can cite without infringing on that research that has been paid for? I think with mass mailing, advertisers think they have done great if they get 2% response. Is the retention of radio advertising messages down at that level?
I have a notion that the current success of music radio is largely riding the crest of Gen Xrs,(1965-1980) the oldest coming of age around 1980, the youngest around 1995. Music Radio was for them still the place to access music. They are used to radio and accept the advertising that comes with it.
Millennial's (1980 - 1997) came of age 1995 - 2012. Walkmans and CDs were an option for portable music. I recall hearing about a new 'wired' dorm proudly unveiled at Rutgers crashed soon after the kids moved in due to the wild amount of music being downloaded. Music Radio was and is(?) a much smaller part of their lives, and advertising is a real irritant.
As I note above Gen Z who came of age 2012 and onward have cellphones with their music. I think my assertion that their listening drops off fast after Morning Drive is probably correct. They don't tolerate commercials. This means COMMERCIAL BROADCAST radio, unless it wants to get shortwaved into irrelevance needs to come up with entirely new programming. If there are better ideas than what I have posted, can you list some of those?
I can respect that. Can you at least indicate if there ARE ideas beyond variations of playing records SERIOUSLY being considered? Figuring out how to pay for any new ideas will certainly be part of the equation, but I really think 'new' needs to get implemented soon. If those ideas do not include broadcast radio with its towers and transmitters, I envision a lot of FM signals suddenly becoming a lot less valuable. Craig Karmazin and Good Karma may be crazy like a fox.
If people won't watch TV in real time, I don't see them tuning in at 10 for whatever talk show or game show might be there. General talk is what morning shows on music stations largely are, and the same goes for some News/Talk stations that save the partisan screaming for later in the day.
Music is becoming more expensive, and the current stuff no longer attracts a consensus mass audience as it once did.
Here is an article about how news programming can reach Gen Z and younger demos:
How To Bring Younger Audiences To News Radio? Expand To Alternative Media Formats.
For years, the best option for news and news/talk radio stations to attract a younger audience was to put their brand on the FM dial. The next step for drawing
Most of the suggestions involve non-broadcast content.
Is this supposed to be some new phenomenon in 2024, where young people don't listen to news on the radio? It seems to me people become more interested in consuming news and politics when they get older, and that's always been the case.
Serious question, what were the demographics for news and talk stations in the 80s? Were they getting a much higher percentage of young listeners than the same types of stations today?
I'm all for future-building but I don't see how putting news into games builds a better future audience for radio, which is still an audio business after all.
Stop over-thinking it and put something on the radio that interests younger audiences instead. I'll bet Howard Stern had good younger demos when he was young and edgy in the 80s-90s and Robin's 'headlines' were always one of the best parts of that show to my younger ears.
Serious question, what were the demographics for news and talk stations in the 80s? Were they getting a much higher percentage of young listeners than the same types of stations today?
I'm all for future-building but I don't see how putting news into games builds a better future audience for radio, which is still an audio business after all.
Stop over-thinking it and put something on the radio that interests younger audiences instead. I'll bet Howard Stern had good younger demos when he was young and edgy in the 80s-90s and Robin's 'headlines' were always one of the best parts of that show to my younger ears.
Hmm....seems like someone did a sports betting format to howls of indignation from this very board.Is this supposed to be some new phenomenon in 2024, where young people don't listen to news on the radio? It seems to me people become more interested in consuming news and politics when they get older, and that's always been the case.
Serious question, what were the demographics for news and talk stations in the 80s? Were they getting a much higher percentage of young listeners than the same types of stations today?
I'm all for future-building but I don't see how putting news into games builds a better future audience for radio, which is still an audio business after all.
Stop over-thinking it and put something on the radio that interests younger audiences instead. I'll bet Howard Stern had good younger demos when he was young and edgy in the 80s-90s and Robin's 'headlines' were always one of the best parts of that show to my younger ears.
Fair question, and from what I can see, news has always appealed to older demos. Maybe not as old as now, but certainly over 40. There was a thread here about radio in the 70s, and all news WCBS-AM was #3 35-64. Talk WOR-AM was #1:
No news or talk stations for teens or 18-34. So yes, you're right. Although I think the OP thinks of talk for younger people as being younger than the current 55+. Perhaps 40s and 50s.
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