Nathan was!
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
WCSB Flips to Jazz
- Thread starter Delete My Account
- Start date
Nathan's gone. He ain't comin' back. You chased him away.
The numbers reported online are shares and not ratings.*
Even if there are only a few hundred actual listeners left, there will always be 100 share points. Ratings, which were an aggregate of around 20 points two decades ago, are now in the 5 to 6 range. That means that average listening to radio... OTA and online.... is off by about 75% since 2005.
Most of the loss is in the 18-34 demographic, but definitely not all of it.
* Rating = percentage of all persons.
Share = percentage of people listening to radio.
So, if they don't program for "ratings".... which means "an audience of any size"... why be on the air? If all the mostly-non-studlents want to do is hear their favorite music they can just light up and stream all the songs they enjoy.
You are making a false assumption. Cleveland has a significantly large Black population and has always had a good jazz following of other races and ethnicities. I suspect that the jazz format will get into the high 1's or even low 2's if done as it seems to be doing.
That is a viscous and unfounded assumption. Jazz is perhaps the only true American music form (I accept that this point is arguable) and its core is among African Americans.
In this case, Wikipedia gets it mostly right:
Jazz is a music genre that originated in the African-American communities of New Orleans, Louisiana, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Its roots are in blues, ragtime, European harmony, African rhythmic rituals, spirituals, hymns, marches, vaudeville song, and dance music. Since the 1920s Jazz Age, it has been recognized as a major form of musical expression in traditional and popular music.
As a WCUY* alumnus (1959-1963) and ongoing jazz devotee, I recognize that "the wealthy one-percenter" has made a contribution to both American culture and the Cleveleand music scene... just as the "big money" broadcaster has sustained Robert Conrad's heritage of classical programming in the city:
I'm Robert Conrad | Ideastream Public Media
A behind-the-scenes look at some of the hilarious and unforgettable travails of the radio announcer.
www.ideastream.org
* WCUY 92.3, sister of R&B WJMO, was Cleveland's first all jazz station dating to about 1959.
I've been announcing high school sports games since 1974 while also working in and out of radio-since the late 70s to late 80s- [I'm surprised some of the stations I worked at didn't have a revolving door for DJs entering and exiting so fast along with other personnel]. The difference was in 70s and 80s kids basically only had radio to listen to in their vehicles and homes, along with cassettes [for their own mix tapes] or 8 tracks. By the 90s internet had come along with the ability to tune into online stations even as bad and slow as the connection was. Today......don't know of a single kid and, in some cases, their parents who listen to OTA radio at all. The parents may have Sirius in their vehicles but some have given it up do their repetitive playlists, etc. Nowadays, the kids at are using Amazon Music, Spotify, Pandora, Youtube or some other streaming service to listen to music. In the locker room, in the parking lot before and after games....won't hear ANY radio stations being played anymore. Nothing is stopping these college/volunteers from starting their own "streaming" service or station if they so please. They may find they'll have many more listeners or they may find they have maybe a dozen. Either way they'll be getting a big wake up when the bills come due.
Oh man, I used to listen to the 450 mhz range remote broadcasts standing right along of the fence of the game lol.
Once one of the WOBL guys asked me for a signal report and I didn't want to admit I was listening to the remote broadcast so I was like "yeah I hear you fine!" because you can hear them between the commercial breaks.
In this day and age, can't such listeners tune to actual German radio online?
Since some of the same tired tropes keep getting repeated here, let's try a different tack.
1. No one in Cleveland was listening to WCSB.
This is simply false. WCSB has had a small but devoted following since its FM signal began broadcasting to the greater Cleveland area in the mid-1980s. But you don't have to take my word — or the outpouring of emotion from listeners on social media — for it. The local media has been filled with testimonials, as published in numerous articles that have been linked to here, from the daily Cleveland Plain Dealer, the weekly Scene, and the monthly Cleveland magazine. That's why over 200 people, of varying ages, turned out for a street protest. It's why the City Council has voted on and called for the Ideastream deal to be reversed.
2. OK, some people were listening. But it's still a very small listenership that has been making a lot of noise. Why should a station that would barely get a 1.0 rating, or even a 0.5, from Arbitron be allowed to exist? And why should even a tiny portion of Cleveland State University's budget and its student activity fees be given to fund such a station?
Why does every single station on the FM dial have to live or die by ratings and ad sales? Why can't there be at least a few non-commercial stations where the mission is simply to explore the art of radio, to play offbeat music or express offbeat ideas?
3. That's crazy talk. Next you'll ask me to accept my local library using my tax dollars to buy books I'm not interested in. Or that I personally find objectionable or downright offensive.
Oh boy. Let's stick to radio, OK?
4. Fine. This whole discussion is moot anyway. Younger people, especially younger music fans, don't care about FM radio any more. They just want to use Spotify or Pandora or You Tube to stream music online.
There is a small but growing audience for music shows that are intimately curated and hosted by human beings — not algorithms. If all you want is Spotify or the same handful of songs in any given genre played ad nauseum by commercial stations, you're welcome to listen to those options. But some of us want something different. And the more radio homogenizes itself, the more we treasure that very human difference.
5. You're living in the past, let's be realistic —
Hold on. This group is called "Radio Discussions", right? Shouldn't it be heartening that in Cleveland there are people fighting for and about the future of a quirky FM radio station? And that this fight over radio's future in a digital world has grabbed the attention of both the local media and local government? Isn't this exciting?
6. But no one cares about WCSB. No one was listening to it.
[Sigh.]
1. No one in Cleveland was listening to WCSB.
This is simply false. WCSB has had a small but devoted following since its FM signal began broadcasting to the greater Cleveland area in the mid-1980s. But you don't have to take my word — or the outpouring of emotion from listeners on social media — for it. The local media has been filled with testimonials, as published in numerous articles that have been linked to here, from the daily Cleveland Plain Dealer, the weekly Scene, and the monthly Cleveland magazine. That's why over 200 people, of varying ages, turned out for a street protest. It's why the City Council has voted on and called for the Ideastream deal to be reversed.
2. OK, some people were listening. But it's still a very small listenership that has been making a lot of noise. Why should a station that would barely get a 1.0 rating, or even a 0.5, from Arbitron be allowed to exist? And why should even a tiny portion of Cleveland State University's budget and its student activity fees be given to fund such a station?
Why does every single station on the FM dial have to live or die by ratings and ad sales? Why can't there be at least a few non-commercial stations where the mission is simply to explore the art of radio, to play offbeat music or express offbeat ideas?
3. That's crazy talk. Next you'll ask me to accept my local library using my tax dollars to buy books I'm not interested in. Or that I personally find objectionable or downright offensive.
Oh boy. Let's stick to radio, OK?
4. Fine. This whole discussion is moot anyway. Younger people, especially younger music fans, don't care about FM radio any more. They just want to use Spotify or Pandora or You Tube to stream music online.
There is a small but growing audience for music shows that are intimately curated and hosted by human beings — not algorithms. If all you want is Spotify or the same handful of songs in any given genre played ad nauseum by commercial stations, you're welcome to listen to those options. But some of us want something different. And the more radio homogenizes itself, the more we treasure that very human difference.
5. You're living in the past, let's be realistic —
Hold on. This group is called "Radio Discussions", right? Shouldn't it be heartening that in Cleveland there are people fighting for and about the future of a quirky FM radio station? And that this fight over radio's future in a digital world has grabbed the attention of both the local media and local government? Isn't this exciting?
6. But no one cares about WCSB. No one was listening to it.
[Sigh.]
Maybe for you and I but not a tech savy 90 year old
This! All of this! No matter the staff's chances, motives, people should be happy that folks are wanting to hold on to their radio stations on a radio discussions forum.
Literally in every other radio niche I can think of via it be shortwave, ham, scanning, pirate, radio people are delighted that people are choosing radio to express themselves. So why is college radio any different?
As I've said before, I'd support a web station, in fact I think that's what will end up happening. But Who am I or anyone here to tell anyone else how to feel or act about "Their" radio station? (Their in quotes so no one takes this out of context, let's not split hairs here)
If people trying to hang onto a radio station bothers anyone that much that they become "livid", then it's indeed time for them to find more fulfilling hobbies.
Great post. Here are my responses:
I agree. I don't think it matters. The university didn't shut it down because of the size of the audience.
They don't. The great thing about non-commercial, educational stations is they don't have to appeal to advertisers. As long as someone is willing to pay the bills, they're OK. The problem here is that the university is in financial trouble, and it decided it no longer wants to pay for a student run station. So they turned over operations to Ideastream, and they're putting another very limited audience format on the frequency. The audience for jazz may only equal about a 1 share. However, it's one that has a benefactor.
I agree, and so does Ideastream. The stations they run in Cleveland are run by humans, not algorithms.
Again, I agree. It's great that people are fighting for radio. But in this case, the situation is that the owner of the station has decided it no longer wants to fund a student station, and turned it over to a community-based public broadcaster who will hire students and train them for careers in radio. Hopefully they will become the future of the radio industry, because it needs a lot of help. I think the place to get it is from young people who are interested in radio.
I think this option is better than having the university sell the station to religious broadcasters. Given the financial struggles this university is having, those are the only two choices. They will not be going back to the way things were. For those students who want to retain the former format, I suggest online radio. That's what most students listen to anyway. Or maybe they can work out a deal with one of the other area college stations.
I agree. I don't think it matters. The university didn't shut it down because of the size of the audience.
They don't. The great thing about non-commercial, educational stations is they don't have to appeal to advertisers. As long as someone is willing to pay the bills, they're OK. The problem here is that the university is in financial trouble, and it decided it no longer wants to pay for a student run station. So they turned over operations to Ideastream, and they're putting another very limited audience format on the frequency. The audience for jazz may only equal about a 1 share. However, it's one that has a benefactor.
I agree, and so does Ideastream. The stations they run in Cleveland are run by humans, not algorithms.
Again, I agree. It's great that people are fighting for radio. But in this case, the situation is that the owner of the station has decided it no longer wants to fund a student station, and turned it over to a community-based public broadcaster who will hire students and train them for careers in radio. Hopefully they will become the future of the radio industry, because it needs a lot of help. I think the place to get it is from young people who are interested in radio.
I think this option is better than having the university sell the station to religious broadcasters. Given the financial struggles this university is having, those are the only two choices. They will not be going back to the way things were. For those students who want to retain the former format, I suggest online radio. That's what most students listen to anyway. Or maybe they can work out a deal with one of the other area college stations.
In the end, how much support did WCSB really get from the community? I don’t think there’s a doubt that WCSB had loyal listenership but did they donate enough?
Looking at their fellow college stations, WJCU raised $70,000 from their last radiothon. WRUW raised $93,000. WCSB mustered $25,000 and that was with a goal of $60,000. They weren’t even close. Granted WCSB had other fundraisers too but so do their competitors.
CSU keeps saying this wasn’t a financial issue and maybe it wasn’t. But it seems like CSU was subsidizing WCSB much more than other colleges and schools in the region do with their stations. And then you have stations like WAPS which are completely self sufficient. WCSB likely didn’t have the support to even go that route.
Public radio and college radio shouldn’t be about ratings. But financials DO matter. And if your listeners aren’t supporting the station, then it puts it on a precarious path. I’m not sure WCSB had a stable path over the long term.
Looking at their fellow college stations, WJCU raised $70,000 from their last radiothon. WRUW raised $93,000. WCSB mustered $25,000 and that was with a goal of $60,000. They weren’t even close. Granted WCSB had other fundraisers too but so do their competitors.
CSU keeps saying this wasn’t a financial issue and maybe it wasn’t. But it seems like CSU was subsidizing WCSB much more than other colleges and schools in the region do with their stations. And then you have stations like WAPS which are completely self sufficient. WCSB likely didn’t have the support to even go that route.
Public radio and college radio shouldn’t be about ratings. But financials DO matter. And if your listeners aren’t supporting the station, then it puts it on a precarious path. I’m not sure WCSB had a stable path over the long term.
WJCU: 2,500 watts. WRUW: 15,000 watts. WCSB: a paltry 630 watts.
If you look at their coverage maps, linked above, you can probably see why they didn't have much in the way of callers to donate. Covers most of Cleveland and a bit of the surrounding 'burbs. Don't know about WRUW & WJCU but WAPS [91.3 The Summit] seems to have a lot of business' that underwrite/donate to the station, not just individual listeners.
Which means just maybe... the airwaves are still valuable.
WJCU: 2,500 watts. WRUW: 15,000 watts. WCSB: a paltry 630 watts.
If you look at their coverage maps, linked above, you can probably see why they didn't have much in the way of callers to donate. Covers most of Cleveland and a bit of the surrounding 'burbs. Don't know about WRUW & WJCU but WAPS [91.3 The Summit] seems to have a lot of business' that underwrite/donate to the station, not just individual listeners.
No matter the chances they have getting 89.3 back, rather it be 0% or 100%, you can see why the staff and fans are pissed. Nobody should try to gatekeep how they should act and feel.
And if you don't like it... to quote TheBigA... "Sue them."
Not trying to be flip, and I get your point, but honestly, if everyone who has posted on social media about "give back WCSB" had given 50 bucks, I'm guessing they would have raised far more than 27k. Seems that unlike the other stations, a sense of complacency had set in among WCSB listeners, who just figured the station would go on forever.
WJCU: 2,500 watts. WRUW: 15,000 watts. WCSB: a paltry 630 watts.
If you look at their coverage maps, linked above, you can probably see why they didn't have much in the way of callers to donate. Covers most of Cleveland and a bit of the surrounding 'burbs. Don't know about WRUW & WJCU but WAPS [91.3 The Summit] seems to have a lot of business' that underwrite/donate to the station, not just individual listeners.
That brings up interesting questions. For example, how much income at WCSB came from underwriting. How much did that grantwriter produce? What was the monthly budget.
'Going out on a limb here, I suspect it was only listener contributions, no underwriting and no grants. At most stations the listener donations generally account for not more than 50-67% of the revenue.
Obtaining Underwriting and getting grants is not just 'anybody can do it', so it's an afterthought. Such stations don't do well at all and the major reason most LPFM stations fail. My point is there is no such thing as 'we do it for the art of radio'. You still have to cover the bills and 9 times out of 10 the monthly rate is the same if you're for profit or not for profit. Attention to income is something you have to prioritize to pay the bills.
'Going out on a limb here, I suspect it was only listener contributions, no underwriting and no grants. At most stations the listener donations generally account for not more than 50-67% of the revenue.
Obtaining Underwriting and getting grants is not just 'anybody can do it', so it's an afterthought. Such stations don't do well at all and the major reason most LPFM stations fail. My point is there is no such thing as 'we do it for the art of radio'. You still have to cover the bills and 9 times out of 10 the monthly rate is the same if you're for profit or not for profit. Attention to income is something you have to prioritize to pay the bills.
That doesn’t explain why WCSB was so far below their goal. Their goal was less than both WJCU and WRUW. Those stations met their goals fairly easily.
You can actually look this up and see that WCSB hadn’t come close to making their pledge goals for many years. So it appears they had lost support over the last decade or their goals were ridiculously optimistic. Either way, it shows the station was being subsidized more than its peers.
You can actually look this up and see that WCSB hadn’t come close to making their pledge goals for many years. So it appears they had lost support over the last decade or their goals were ridiculously optimistic. Either way, it shows the station was being subsidized more than its peers.
That's why the university turned the station over to a professional operator. Otherwise the university would have to hire someone who knows how to attract underwriting. That's expensive. They didn't want to do that. It's something Ideastream knows how to do. More than half of Ideastream's income is from corporate underwriting. Plus, they were able to get a local foundation to give them a grant for jazz. What local foundation is going to give that kind of money to a station where college kids play their favorite music?
The problem, b-turner, is you're thinking practically, not emotionally. This is an emotional discussion. Anyone who looks at this practically understands why the university did what it did.
I think you hit on a key word: Complacency. Some college stations are overseen by alumni. They raise money to keep the station going. You'd think with WCSB's alumni, they might have figured this out. That's how WBRU at Brown University used to operate. It was a student run station just like WCSB. One day the alumni decided they didn't want to pay for an FM station anymore. So they sold it to EMF and it became religious. They did this over the objections of the university.
Longtime Providence Modern Rocker WBRU Sold To EMF.
Longtime modern rock WBRU Providence (95.5), which is run by Brown University students, is being sold to Educational Media Foundation (EMF). The religious broadcaster plans to place its “K-Love” contemporary