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"What Are We Doing to Ourselves, Exactly?"
- Thread starter KB1OKL
- Start date
R
Radioman100
Guest
KB1OKL said:
Everything in life is a matter of risk and reward. In this case, the potential for reward outweighs the risk. We are still learning about HD and how to make the most of it. The Minneapolis case suggests space combining may not be a good idea. Just like with FM and AM before it, HD transmission and reception techniques will improve.
I live in one of the biggest, most saturated metros in the country. HD FM works great here, as does analog FM. It worked great before HD, and it continues to work great with it.
D
dbdigital
Guest
Well, I guess it's time to reconsider FMeXtra which, apparently, has many fans among radio professionals as a thread on the engineering board attests.
Either that or we take Guy Wire's suggestion seriously and thin the herd...this time on the FM band (which, for urban areas, might not be a bad idea especially since station clusters could put their programming on HD2 and 3 channels and eliminate a license or two).
But I've noticed, over the past year and a half, a faint white noise all over the Los Angeles FM band. I'm assuming this IBOC at work.
db
Either that or we take Guy Wire's suggestion seriously and thin the herd...this time on the FM band (which, for urban areas, might not be a bad idea especially since station clusters could put their programming on HD2 and 3 channels and eliminate a license or two).
But I've noticed, over the past year and a half, a faint white noise all over the Los Angeles FM band. I'm assuming this IBOC at work.
db
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Radioman100
Guest
Faint white noise huh? The stuff you guys come up with never ceases to amaze me. If that was happening, don't you think someone outside this board would have mentioned it somewhere else by now?
HD radios that break 35 times, one suspicious report that a radio widely reported to have excellent analog reception can't pick up any stations in a local Best Buy while many über-cheap analog only ones can, and now white noise all over the LA FM band?
Maybe we can invite Art Bell for our next discussion of how HD Radio summons aliens?
HD radios that break 35 times, one suspicious report that a radio widely reported to have excellent analog reception can't pick up any stations in a local Best Buy while many über-cheap analog only ones can, and now white noise all over the LA FM band?
Maybe we can invite Art Bell for our next discussion of how HD Radio summons aliens?
R
Radioman100
Guest
Tom Wells said:
When in Rome Tom, when in Rome. I tried the professional approach when I first came here, but the "other side" of the argument has made it abundantly clear that they aren't interested in "professional" or even rational discussion. Remember, YOUR side commonly refers to me as "Headinass100" and makes up all sorts of other cute names and euphemisms in a feeble attempt to make up for the cold, hard facts that they lack.
Pettiness is pretty much the only thing the opposition here seems to understand. Maybe its the only thing they can relate to. I think you'd be really hard pressed to make the case that the pro-IBOC side started the flame war here, and we've certainly done far less to fan the fire.
Regardless, now we have a number of new posters popping up to make outlandish claims, like their Sangean HD radio has broken 35 times. Really? Sangean makes a lot of really highly regarded products. Don't you find it just a bit odd that only their HD products experience this horrible failure rate?
Tom Wells said:
I agree that what you say is possible Tom, but in practice, I just haven't seen, or more to the point, HEARD it. I've heard several claims about IBOC that might be semi-credible, particularly on the AM side, but this simply isn't one of them.
Tom Wells said:
That's the point Tom, this isn't changing how our radios act. Just not a problem as far as I can tell, and believe me, I've tried to hear it, on a variety of expensive and inexpensive radios, IBOC and non-IBOC.
Radioman100, it should not be necessary for your responses to be so ..... .. hmm.... petty.
As a professional, you are coming across as being unprofessional.
Increased "background noise level" is an known and expected effect as ANY kind of modulation happens in any RF neighborhood.
Inasmuch as the type of modulation (sine vs "squarish") make a big difference in the likelihood of spurious emissions,
to ADD digital emissions in a band formerly reserved for sine waves, we can see that increased white noise is by defintion, unavoidable.
We may argue whether this detriment is for the better or not, but the laws of physics state that it is so, whether you, I or
anyone has, or can measure it. When it begins to change how our radios act, we have something to think about.
This is one of the points made long ago by an industry engineer, now widely scorned for old-fashioned thinking.
As a professional, you are coming across as being unprofessional.
Increased "background noise level" is an known and expected effect as ANY kind of modulation happens in any RF neighborhood.
Inasmuch as the type of modulation (sine vs "squarish") make a big difference in the likelihood of spurious emissions,
to ADD digital emissions in a band formerly reserved for sine waves, we can see that increased white noise is by defintion, unavoidable.
We may argue whether this detriment is for the better or not, but the laws of physics state that it is so, whether you, I or
anyone has, or can measure it. When it begins to change how our radios act, we have something to think about.
This is one of the points made long ago by an industry engineer, now widely scorned for old-fashioned thinking.
D
dbdigital
Guest
Tom Wells said:
And keep in mind, L.A. is probably the most crowded market for FM stations in the nation. I don't think it's even possible for every FM station in my area to fire up IBOC. The resulting interference would be too much.
db
The full title of the article in question is "What Are We Doing to Ourselves, Exactly? IBOC FM Interference Has Been Reported in Several Cases Where FCC Contours Provide Inadequate Protection," and it was written by by Doug Vernier. It appeared in the 12/12/07 issue of Radio World Engineering Extra, beginnning on page 1 (and continued on pages 8, 10, 12, 14 and 16).
Here's a link: http://mag1.olivesoftware.com/ActiveMagazine/getBook.asp?Path=RWM/2007/12/12&BookCollection
Some of the graphs and maps were taken from a report Doug Vernier wrote for the NAB last year. Sorry, I don't have a link for that one, but you can find it on the web if you "google" him.
Here's a link: http://mag1.olivesoftware.com/ActiveMagazine/getBook.asp?Path=RWM/2007/12/12&BookCollection
Some of the graphs and maps were taken from a report Doug Vernier wrote for the NAB last year. Sorry, I don't have a link for that one, but you can find it on the web if you "google" him.
Tom Wells said:
Tom,
Your point is correct. Every transmitter in the world interferes with somebody trying to do something somewhere at one time or another. I'm in South Texas. We routinely get Tropo or Coastal ducting or eskip or whatever on FM. When more stations are added, Interference potential goes up. No arguement.
Does 103.7 in Houston interfere with 103.7 Sinton? At times. Does KVOZ 890 laredo, interfere with WLS Chicago. Every night. Doer WLYC Williamsport interfere with WEPN New York? Yep. Fact is, almost everything interferes with SOMETHING at one time or another.
For better or worse, they changed the rules. They changed 'em when KKOB went on 770. They changed 'em when they broke doen the clears. They changed 'em for 80-90. They changed 'em for translators on Fm. They've changed 'em for LPTV. And they're getting ready to change the FM rules for LPFM. The reason to NOT change them is mostly political. Look at FM Translators. OK with careful siting on 2nd adjacent up to 250 watts, but 100 watt LPFM with very strict 3rd adjacent protection. By the way, the translator spacing seems fine to me.
There's very few problems with HD overall. The sky didin't fall. With a very few notable exceptions, the system fits. Shriek as a few people will, there is just not the outcry many thought there would be.
Does HD cause more interference that analog? Yep. Is it a problem?
Doesn't really seem to be.
Clouseau
Some things are definitely falling. Seems mostly they are my choices which respected the former definitions and uses of radio.
Meaning long distance driving, "extra-market" listening.
Like WSM AM 650, which is not listenable here now, and was a real and valued choice.
WGN and WLW make each other sound awful in central Indiana, where both were strong and clear before.
Another thread here demonstrates lost first adjacent listening on FM.
I am in a packed tight market, and this will not be anything I will experience.
My closest headphone listening revealed a small hiss in stereo FM reception added to the HOST by iboc, much like
very minor multipath at fm fringes.
I would not notice it at any sane level in home listening. It is not there in mono FM decoding as I use in the car by choice.
It is less annoying than 67khz SCA transmissions on FM stereo.
Neither would be audible given the programming of most stations.
WFMT FM 98.7 still doesn't run SCA or iBOC, as low-modulation levels don't hide such noise well.
Meaning long distance driving, "extra-market" listening.
Like WSM AM 650, which is not listenable here now, and was a real and valued choice.
WGN and WLW make each other sound awful in central Indiana, where both were strong and clear before.
Another thread here demonstrates lost first adjacent listening on FM.
I am in a packed tight market, and this will not be anything I will experience.
My closest headphone listening revealed a small hiss in stereo FM reception added to the HOST by iboc, much like
very minor multipath at fm fringes.
I would not notice it at any sane level in home listening. It is not there in mono FM decoding as I use in the car by choice.
It is less annoying than 67khz SCA transmissions on FM stereo.
Neither would be audible given the programming of most stations.
WFMT FM 98.7 still doesn't run SCA or iBOC, as low-modulation levels don't hide such noise well.
R
Radioman100
Guest
Tom Wells said:
As a radio guy Tom, I've gotta say I'm elated that you're losing the ability to DX first adjacents. I'm not even going to lie to you. That listening does nothing to help bolster the bottom line of the stations in your market (and you have many to choose from) and it's not doing anything for the station you're listening to either. To a radio station in Chicago, you might as well not be listening at all.
Tom Wells said:
Gotta love multipath. It's the catch all description for all sorts of signal problems. My close listening has revealed no such hiss, and unlike you Tom, I have the ability to kill all modulation on several IBOC FM stations and listen to a dead carrier. I've even tried turning the IBOC transmitter on and off while listening to a dead carrier. No difference. It's totally hiss free in my experience.
Tom Wells said:
Zero modulation doesn't hide it at all (well, actually 9% modulation if you count the stereo pilot.) Of course I've also found nothing to hide. This is simply not an issue, except for DXers trying to listen to out of market signals on 1st adjacent frequencies.
Radioman100 said:
Many FM and AM stations report increased noise from their modulation monitor audio output when transmitting HD radio.
Many listeners report increased HD radio noise from their analog AM and FM radios.
I think you are vastly outnumbered.
Many FM and AM stations report increased noise from their modulation monitor audio output when transmitting HD radio.
Many listeners report increased HD radio noise from their analog AM and FM radios.
I think you are vastly outnumbered.
R
Radioman100
Guest
SUPERCASTER said:
Well, I'll trust my own ears over the rhetoric of anti-HD radicals, thanks.
Radioman100 said:
Anyone who even questions whether there is adjacent sideband noise and a lot of it on the AM band is in full flight from reality. My FM home listening location is bad so I don't even try to experiment, I only listen in the car where I can't pay real attention to whether or not there is any hash under the signal, but this article has it in black and white, how can anyone argue with that? And this is only the beginning if the IBOC Alliance has it's way which is seriously in doubt at this late stage of the game.
[/quote]
Circular statements like these make iBlock opponents realize they are not talking with a rational person with an open mind and they will get nowhere with them, this I believe is what causes some opponents to begin to ridicule certain posters here. There are some open minded pro-IBOC people here who will debate with an open mind in a civil manner and there are some who won't and then there are some who are totally ridiculous.
R
Radioman100
Guest
Excuse me? I regularly enjoy civil discourse here with a few of the anti-HD types. Chuck seems reasonable, as does Savage.
My failure to hear problems with HD on FM is based in one thing only, my failure to hear problems with HD on FM. The AM radio I listen to most (in my vehicle) doesn't reveal any problems with HD on AM either, but I realize it's really narrowband.
I bring up the Radio Racket forum because those guys have chosen to make themselves anti-HD poster children and I think it's really eye opening to see just who these people really are. Many of the fanatical types here post there as well, and you get a good idea of just who they are when they really let their hair down in a place that's apparently free of moderation. I don't see the more reasonable anti-HD types posting there, but I do see many of the most fanatical zealots from here over there, and the guy that used to pollute this forum with endless links to useless websites.
I'm all for rational discussion of HD Radio, its flaws, benefits and better ways to utilize the additional channels it provides. Unfortunately, your side doesn't seem interested in anything but bashing.
My failure to hear problems with HD on FM is based in one thing only, my failure to hear problems with HD on FM. The AM radio I listen to most (in my vehicle) doesn't reveal any problems with HD on AM either, but I realize it's really narrowband.
I bring up the Radio Racket forum because those guys have chosen to make themselves anti-HD poster children and I think it's really eye opening to see just who these people really are. Many of the fanatical types here post there as well, and you get a good idea of just who they are when they really let their hair down in a place that's apparently free of moderation. I don't see the more reasonable anti-HD types posting there, but I do see many of the most fanatical zealots from here over there, and the guy that used to pollute this forum with endless links to useless websites.
I'm all for rational discussion of HD Radio, its flaws, benefits and better ways to utilize the additional channels it provides. Unfortunately, your side doesn't seem interested in anything but bashing.
Radioman100 said:
Let me add my experience to yours, RM. I have never heard the hiss on FM either. I can hear it on a first adjacent, but it just does not affect analog for me. It does not affect analog for anyone I know personally off these forums either. Sorry. It just doesn't. I'm sure there is an issue somewhere with something. There always is. Heck, I've been reading about the short spacing of WJFK for years. I don't suppose HD made it any better.
A while ago, I heard the HD on 550 KTSA San Antonio kicking the heck out of 560 KLVI Beaumont in San Antonio and Corpus Christi. It actually extended all the way to Victoria before it disappeared. Of course all of these locales are well outside any reasonable use of KLVI.
It's almost like there is a religious-like need by some folks to keep the debate about whether we should do FM HD or not alive. Or to sit around and continue to predict it's demise.
Well at least it keeps them off the streets.
Clouseau
Inspector:
Count me among the HD 'religious moderates'
As far as I'm concerned, the IBOC FM debate has been over for quite some time. It's the AM debate which ought to continue, though I fear that no digital alternative to IBOC will arrive in time to save AM from traveling down the road to what I like to call "shortwavedom".
Count me among the HD 'religious moderates'
As far as I'm concerned, the IBOC FM debate has been over for quite some time. It's the AM debate which ought to continue, though I fear that no digital alternative to IBOC will arrive in time to save AM from traveling down the road to what I like to call "shortwavedom".
I have made my peace with the FM version, but will truthfully report what I hear on my old Sansui TU-7700.
I again stress the hiss is next-to-nothing, but does exist, in stereo decoding.
Headphones are necessary to detect it, and modulation must stop for long enough to listen for it.
Not being a basher, just the facts with no spin.
It may be less than ideal filtering in this tuner. It has never been aligned all these years.
There are very few suburban first adjacents I could have any interest in.
I long ago gave up entertaining the idea that I was any desirable demo, as I'm a poor "consumer", so it has never really
bothered me that I was depriving the local broadcasters acess to myself as part of the market.
Listening to any signal from any-old-where has been part of what makes radio useful to me.
Especially if such a signal brings me unique content.
I again stress the hiss is next-to-nothing, but does exist, in stereo decoding.
Headphones are necessary to detect it, and modulation must stop for long enough to listen for it.
Not being a basher, just the facts with no spin.
It may be less than ideal filtering in this tuner. It has never been aligned all these years.
There are very few suburban first adjacents I could have any interest in.
I long ago gave up entertaining the idea that I was any desirable demo, as I'm a poor "consumer", so it has never really
bothered me that I was depriving the local broadcasters acess to myself as part of the market.
Listening to any signal from any-old-where has been part of what makes radio useful to me.
Especially if such a signal brings me unique content.
Tom,Tom Wells said:
You have been very forthright with your observations and honest in your assessment. One of the most telling things you reported was how the HD hiss was similar to the 67 KHZ SCA noise introduced on the main channel of an FM. That framed the issue PERFECTLY for me. As you know, when set up properly, virtually no one hears that. Obviously you do. I suspect it's similar to having perfect pitch. If someone can tell from the pitch that a song is off key when it's sped up, I can only imagine how listening to a station like MusicRadio WABC would make them want to jab a couple of really long nail through their eardrums.
I suspect the way we have modified the FM spacing rules over the years has increased FM noise a good bit as well. Not to mention FM stereo.
And don't even get me started on how we don't advertise to anyone over 35 anymore (Broad generalization, but pretty close to true.)
Clouseau
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