• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

What Happens to Inactive/Defunct Call Signs?

KeithE4 said:
From what I understand, a Part 15 transmitter that's strictly for personal use is not subject to Music Mafia extortion... oops, I mean license fees... since it isn't being used as a broadcaster. No different than playing a radio in your back yard. If your neighbors hear it, then it's not intentional.
Click to expand...
That's what I thought.

I do hope to eventually expand (maybe to the end of the block haha), so I'll worry about it then.

For the moment, however, it's basically equivalent to a living room jukebox that happens to be "streaming" music to a hifi system via AM radio, and that "stream" happens to be "unintentionally" receivable on any AM radio within a few hundred feet.

;)

c
 
cc333 said:
That's what I thought.

I do hope to eventually expand (maybe to the end of the block haha), so I'll worry about it then.

For the moment, however, it's basically equivalent to a living room jukebox that happens to be "streaming" music to a hifi system via AM radio, and that "stream" happens to be "unintentionally" receivable on any AM radio within a few hundred feet.

;)

c
Click to expand...
If you created jingles, acted as a disk jockey, and/or sold ad time, that would likely be another story. You'd probably have to pay up, then.
 
Hmm, I see.

I don't do any DJ stuff, at least with my voice. Essentially, all I do is create playlists and do crossfades, sometimes I play an actual single and maybe an occasional generic jingle.

I don't intend to commercialize anything, but if anything does go public, I would need to solicit funding somehow? It would be non profit, and I won't run any current ads (do vintage ads for defunct companies count? How about vintage ads for products that happen to still exist?)

Of course, the first thing I'd do if I got funding is pay for licensing (ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, SoundExchange) so I can have an internet stream (or not; licensing, from what I can tell, is not cheap).

c
 
I have a private internet music stream. To listen, you must know the specific "code" to get in.
I serve it from a computer in my basement office. I use software-based audio processing to keep the audio consistent. My good friend, Jeff Laurence, has recorded a number of liners and time checks for me. Technically, the stream sounds as good, or better than most commercial streams.
 
cc333 said:
I won't run any current ads (do vintage ads for defunct companies count? How about vintage ads for products that happen to still exist?)
Click to expand...

There's still ownership involved, even though it's vintage. You may have to ask permission to use it. Fair use allows you to use excerpts from vintage ads. Maybe ten seconds. That's usually what you'll see in documentaries. Maybe you could put together a montage of clips from ads. But I imagine AFTRA might still pay the talent fees even though it's not current. There's a limit on how long residuals still apply.
 
TheBigA said:
Anything private that is password protected doesn't pay royalties.
Click to expand...
That's what I thought!

TheBigA said:
There's still ownership involved, even though it's vintage. You may have to ask permission to use it. Fair use allows you to use excerpts from vintage ads. Maybe ten seconds. That's usually what you'll see in documentaries. Maybe you could put together a montage of clips from ads. But I imagine AFTRA might still pay the talent fees even though it's not current. There's a limit on how long residuals still apply.
Click to expand...
Does that likewise not apply if I keep everything locked down and "by invitation only", for the stream?

Of course, there isn't much I can do about the radio side, other than restricting the range to something stupid and useless like 3 inches (which I can do with a 50 ohm dummy load).

c
 
Good. That's how I did it when I was experimenting last year, except it was unencrypted and not password protected.

It doesn't seem like I need much, just a simple passcode so that only those I give it to can listen.

Of course, if the material is 100% original, there's nothing to license, right? So hypothetically, if I ran an all talk format that had only live and local talent (no syndicated programs or licensed music), then I can do whatever I want?

c
 
I thought I'd revisit this, since I have some time...

I'm still doing the same thing basically, but I was thinking of looking through a list of defunct call signs and maybe using one of those for identification (if only because it's fun to say "you're listening to <call letters>!", except I can't find such a list?

If all else fails, I'm sure there's numerous three-letter calls that have been surrendered eons ago and are now semi-permanently defunct.

Barring this, I was actually thinking of buying a station. When doing so, do all the ASCAP/BMI/etc. licenses come included with the rest of the lot (FCC license, transmitter site, etc.), or must I still get those separately?

c
 
cc333 said:
Barring this, I was actually thinking of buying a station. When doing so, do all the ASCAP/BMI/etc. licenses come included with the rest of the lot (FCC license, transmitter site, etc.), or must I still get those separately?
Click to expand...
The PROs are just another cost of doing business you pay, no different than the utilities or leases. Most commonly the way it works is the former operator pays up until their last day, and then the new operator takes over.
 
cc333 said:
Barring this, I was actually thinking of buying a station. When doing so, do all the ASCAP/BMI/etc. licenses come included with the rest of the lot (FCC license, transmitter site, etc.), or must I still get those separately?
Click to expand...
If you do a stock purchase you assume the contracts and agreements of the company. If you do an asset sale, you have to do new contracts of all kinds, from your utility service to your business license to music license agreements.

Generally, stations have the standard music license agreements and all you'd do is change the billing name.

On the other hand, a stock purchase continues to bear all known and possible liabilities. This is why one needs an expert to do due diligence prior to the sale.
 
@DavidEduardo OK, let me see if I understand correctly:
  • In a stock purchase, the operating station continues on as if nothing happened, except the controlling ownereship changes and assumes all the debts and liabilities from the prior owner. This seems sort of akin to a larger corporation buying out a smaller one by buying up at least 51% of the smaller corporation's outstanding shares to obtain a controlling stake.
  • An asset sale is basically a straight purchase of the station's FCC license and maybe transmitting equipment, and it's up to the buyer to establish or reestablish music licenses, utilities, etc. This is almost as do it yourself as one can get without going to the FCC and applying for a new license directly.
A stock purchase seems easier because one would be buying a proven system, but potentially more expensive because not only would the sale price be higher, but one has to also pay the likely very high fees of the expert doing the due diligence (probably an attorney of some sort).

An asset sale, on the other hand, could potentially be more of a bargain, if one is willing to do all the work of setting it up from scratch, since basically all you'd be buying is the license itself, and if you're lucky, maybe some of the transmitter equipment.

In either case, the end result of each would probably be the same eventually, provided one has enough money to make things happen as needed.

Am I making any sense??

c
 
cc333 said:
@DavidEduardo OK, let me see if I understand correctly:
  • In a stock purchase, the operating station continues on as if nothing happened, except the controlling ownereship changes and assumes all the debts and liabilities from the prior owner. This seems sort of akin to a larger corporation buying out a smaller one by buying up at least 51% of the smaller corporation's outstanding shares to obtain a controlling stake.
  • An asset sale is basically a straight purchase of the station's FCC license and maybe transmitting equipment, and it's up to the buyer to establish or reestablish music licenses, utilities, etc. This is almost as do it yourself as one can get without going to the FCC and applying for a new license directly.
A stock purchase seems easier because one would be buying a proven system, but potentially more expensive because not only would the sale price be higher, but one has to also pay the likely very high fees of the expert doing the due diligence (probably an attorney of some sort).
Click to expand...
The stock purchase comes with all liabilities, known and unknown. One of the due diligence functions is to find out if things like contamination at the transmitter site or pending lawsuits or near-to-end leases are going to create extraordinary expenses.
cc333 said:
An asset sale, on the other hand, could potentially be more of a bargain, if one is willing to do all the work of setting it up from scratch, since basically all you'd be buying is the license itself, and if you're lucky, maybe some of the transmitter equipment.
Click to expand...
An asset sale is usually for all the same tangible (equipment, properties, vehicles, etc.) and intangible (expectation of the license being transferable, employee contracts, leases, etc.) with a detailed inventory and description. Due diligence is even more important there as the buyer wants to know what, if anything, the seller is not handing over.

I've seen cases where an asset sale has all the physical assets, including towers, transmitter sites, etc. being leased to the buyer for $1 a year until seller financing is paid entirely. That gives the seller considerable recourse in the event of default.
cc333 said:
In either case, the end result of each would probably be the same eventually, provided one has enough money to make things happen as needed.
Click to expand...
Each situation is different. That is why for both, due diligence is very important.
 
I see.

Better make sure I don't go broke before I buy anything.

How would I go about applying to the FCC for a new AM license?

EDIT: Never mind :/

c
 
Last edited:
OK,

I think I found some call letters I can use for my Part 15 station without infringing on anyone's I. P.:

KYY

According to Wikipedia (hardly definitive, I know, but better than nothing), it was briefly assigned to some San Francisco-based outfit by the name of The Radio Telephone Shop in December 1921 and then deleted about a year later.

Any thoughts?

c
 
DavidEduardo said:
When calls are dropped by a station, anyone else with a licensed facility can apply for them.

Three letter calls stopped being assigned in the 20's, and normally can't be reapplied for if dropped unless the original licensee who dropped them still owns the station. The Liberman case was pure deception.
Click to expand...
No kidding! It did set a precedent though allowing a previously issued three letter call to be reissued... But that garbage about the KK in the call sign being offensive was a bunch of hooey
Having work for Liberman, they were a bunch of hooey too
 
Last edited:
cc333 said:
OK,

I think I found some call letters I can use for my Part 15 station without infringing on anyone's I. P.:

KYY

According to Wikipedia (hardly definitive, I know, but better than nothing), it was briefly assigned to some San Francisco-based outfit by the name of The Radio Telephone Shop in December 1921 and then deleted about a year later.

Any thoughts?

c
Click to expand...
Part 15 operation is not under part 73 rules thus you can use any call sign on a part 15 signal. However, using a call sign that's already issued in the market that your part 15 signal is on probably wouldn't be a smart idea... The lawyers would probably issue a cease and desist order 🤣
 
ContinuousWave said:
Part 15 operation is not under part 73 rules thus you can use any call sign on a part 15 signal. However, using a call sign that's already issued in the market that your part 15 signal is on probably wouldn't be a smart idea... The lawyers would probably issue a cease and desist order 🤣
Click to expand...
OK, so since the KYY call sign has been defunct for at least 100 years, there shouldn't be any trouble, then. Right?

c
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom