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What Is The Appeal?

richard.vanderveen said:
satech said:
Heck, you could even run Breakaway on a PC and then just use the Amigo as an overshoot-compensated stereo generator!
Click to expand...
Why would you do that? There are no overshoots with Breakaway.
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True as long as you use a Marian Trace Alpha sound card. Use anything else and you'll see 30% overshoots...especially on the first notes of Three Dog Night - Black And White. Even when you do the Leif approved mods on the on the Delta 192 card, some songs still do that. Went back and forth with Leif on this topic and he finally determined it had something to do with non-symmetrical bass at the start of that song. He assured me that the Trace Alpha card would solve it...and it did. That particular song's first 5-10 seconds are a great overshoot test.

FWIW, I tried using a CP-803 to control the overshoots and even with the slightest amount of clipping, it took a toll on the pristine BBP sound. I'd suspect that the Amigo would also lower the overall quality of BBP as well. The Marian Trace Alpha is the entry fee if you want to do BBP right.
 
My 8100 XT2 works just fine and sounds good too, thank you. As I said on another board when it goes to that great equipment shelf in the sky (quits workin'), I will replace it with the Omnia One. Until then, the DB gain meter rocks on ;D
 
satech said:
On the famous "CG Smooth" preset, maybe so. But just like with the DSP-X Mini, with the Omnia One there are some "problem" songs which will cause audible and annoying HF ducking and tonal balance shifts that the 8100 simply does not exhibit.
Click to expand...

The original mini indeed had noticeable HF ducking, but that was greatly alleviated in the SE version. I haven't noticed HF ducking with the Omnia One.

With the 8100 you get a different set of problems - Master band breathing with signals that have high RMS energy. Did any of your DJs ever called someone on the phone on the air and then talked while they waited for the person to pick up the phone? The waiting-for-answer tone will cause 8100's Master band to modulate everything else (including the DJ and music bed, if there is one) very, very obviously! This is noticeable even in the 8100/XT2 combination where the AGC is significantly slowed down. The Master band will modulate on other things as well, such as an announcer (which is often desirable as it ducks the music and some people like 8100 because of that), but you can hear it doing that with music as well, especially high RMS energy music such as heavy rock. I'm sure Skrillex would also cause the 8100 to breathe ;)

Lastly, it doesn't make much sense to compare a 2-band processor with 4-band processors, the latter having significantly more power in the equalization and signature sound capabilities than 8100.


Regards,
Goran Tomas
 
musiconradio.com said:
My 8100 XT2 works just fine and sounds good too, thank you. As I said on another board when it goes to that great equipment shelf in the sky (quits workin'), I will replace it with the Omnia One. Until then, the DB gain meter rocks on ;D
Click to expand...
That's my favorite analog processor hands down. One of my clients "upgraded" to an Omnia 3 under a previous engineer. My first order of business was to "downgrade" him back to the 8100A/XT2.
 
The thread seems to have derailed somewhat into a discussion on the best forms of processing, so here's an attempt to re-rail it and answer OP's question.

The reasons why I think people still like old boxes:

1) A bit of nostalgia - 'radio how it used to be' as mentioned above. Takes one back to the days when radio really was a lot more fun.

2) They look cool. You have to admit, the 8100A is a great looking unit. Intuitive, informative, commanding.

3) Real knobs to adjust and meters to look at. A control room just isn't the same without lights, meters, knobs and dials. It's hands-on.

4) Comparatively cheap - compared to a new digital box which can be upwards of $10k.

5) Easy to get that 80s analog sound. Plug in, turn on, adjust levels, done.

6) Vintage = retro/old school = big money. People like old stuff, if it can still be used today. It has a certain appeal to it.

7) If you don't like digital, they are a good box of choice.


It seems that radio has become more IT than 'radio' over the years. I love the sound of the Breakaway system, but I am torn - the 8100A Optimod box just has that 'radio' look about it. The LCD screen and lack of knobs and meters on a digital box just isn't the same.
A rack full of computers just doesn't compare to a rack full of analog processing.

I see a challenge for someone - design a retro-fit Breakaway system to go into an 8100A box, that still keeps all the meters and LEDs operational. Now that would be one VERY cool piece of equipment.
Can it be done? I am sure it could. The same basic principles apply - L and R audio in, composite out. You've got 8 or 9 slots to play with, you could spread various parts of the system across different boards. As far as a display goes, you could mount it behind the door.

I agree it's a little incredible that old technology commands such high prices. There has been a bit of hysteria over 8100 Optimods over the years. They were once one of the most expensive processors on the market. (Does anyone know how much a brand new 8100A was when they were in current production?)
People's perception of what something is worth can be influenced on the social 'buzz' which surrounds it. If word spreads that a certain item is really good and has great value, people soon believe it and the price goes up accordingly.
There might even be some sentimental attachment to these old boxes. For those of us who installed them new, who worked with them and don't like to see them end up in a dumpster.

Ok, that's my 2c worth.
 
Mine was $3500 in 1983. Bought a new Oldsmobile three years before that for $5,000. The 8100 is still around (as a back-up to an Omnia 3T), the Olds long ago became three new refrigerators and a gross of Campbell's soup cans.

One advantage of the 8100 is that they can be fixed in the field. No surface mount parts. Instead IC's (for the most part) in sockets, capacitors and resistors. I can pull up the Mouser website (and do--just repaired an 8100 for a small station) and find just about everything in the box.
 
I love the analog Optimods. If we were a station playing current music, I would probably consider a digital box. Today's music is so tight and edgy, digital processing is no doubt compatible. Together they produce today's "sound." But I think that most listeners want to hear non-current music sounding the way it sounded when the music was new. I know I do. '50s/'60s oldies sound best on AM with maybe Audimax/Volumax processing (oldies on FM have always sounded really wrong to me). '70s/'80s/'90s rock/CHR/country/AC sound best on FM with analog processing. That's just the way it is -- no knock on the digital boxes. And yes, I know about the "8100 presets" -- I'd rather have the real thing!
 
I think you're dead wrong. Nobody wants to hear an Audimax/Volumax on the air playing oldies. They sounded like crap. What people want to hear is a hint of the "pumping" or "snap" in the processing without all of the horrible side effects of the Max brothers.

If done properly, digital processing can make the older songs come to life and keep them consistent with the newer material.

Meanwhile, you can continue to listen to your transistor radio with 2" speaker...
 
richard.vanderveen said:
BobOnTheJob said:
The Marian Trace Alpha is the entry fee if you want to do BBP right.
Click to expand...
I agree 110%!
Click to expand...

On an AM with lots and lots of positive modulation headroom the overshoot on a cheap laptop audio card is not a problem;
it makes a pretty impressive sound on Three Dog Night's "Black and White".
Looks great on the scope too.

I let Breakaway do the heavy work but have 2 more steps of post processsing with knobs and meters right at the xmtr.
There is something comforting about having knobs to tweak.


WNTIRadio said:
I think you're dead wrong. Nobody wants to hear an Audimax/Volumax on the air playing oldies. They sounded like crap. What people want to hear is a hint of the "pumping" or "snap" in the processing without all of the horrible side effects of the Max brothers.

If done properly, digital processing can make the older songs come to life and keep them consistent with the newer material.

Meanwhile, you can continue to listen to your transistor radio with 2" speaker...
Click to expand...

Yay! Nail on the head! Pumping is fun when it's snappy. And then it can sound good on a 2" speaker. Well, maybe a 3" speaker.
 
Love the 8100. I prefer the 2-band to the multi-band version. It actually makes the music sound BETTER. I set it up to get a fairly natural sound without excessive limiting, and we're only about 5 dB quieter than the commercial stations. It has that gooey analog compressor sound that's pleasing to the ear and keeps listeners tuned in. It'll never be replaced with a digital processor as long as I have any input. I like the sound so much that I'm planning to get the TV version to use in the recording studio, possibly for mastering.
 
WNTIRadio said:
I think you're dead wrong. Nobody wants to hear an Audimax/Volumax on the air playing oldies. They sounded like crap. What people want to hear is a hint of the "pumping" or "snap" in the processing without all of the horrible side effects of the Max brothers.

If done properly, digital processing can make the older songs come to life and keep them consistent with the newer material.
Click to expand...

Years ago when I ran an oldies webstream I ran a pair of DBX Quantum 4 band digital processors for the stream audio, one running gentle and one as a peak limiter. I was able to get a little of the pumping sound reminiscent of sixties radio but it had a great sound, too. Being musician's boxes they didn't have platform gating so I had to carefully adjust them to they didn't get obnoxious.

I didn't expect the variety of answers when I started this thread. I appreciate the diverse array of comments.
 
Studio1 said:
I see a challenge for someone - design a retro-fit Breakaway system to go into an 8100A box, that still keeps all the meters and LEDs operational. Now that would be one VERY cool piece of equipment.
Click to expand...
That would be a "killer app".
 
The idea of Breakaway residing in an 8100 chassis is a fun one.

Breakaway is the first digital processor I have heard that does
Justice to voice...the first all in one digital processor that handles like
the most perfect analog chain...which would include the 8100, in my book.
 
Fenris said:
Love the 8100. I prefer the 2-band to the multi-band version. It actually makes the music sound BETTER.
Click to expand...

It will never cease to amaze me how different people's opinions and perceptions are. It almost makes any opinion we give irrelevant, as it is so subjective...


Regards,
Goran Tomas
 
Sgeirk said:
Breakaway is the first digital processor I have heard that does
Justice to voice...the first all in one digital processor that handles like
the most perfect analog chain...which would include the 8100, in my book.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure even Leif would agree with this, but OK...


Regards,
Goran Tomas
 
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