WHAT TO DO WITH KZON

[mr_carlson]

> Good point. Tragically hip doesn't work on radio...a
> mass-appeal medium.
>
> The "CHILL" format is so hip and so new, I've only seen it
> referenced by one person in one place...over and over again.
>
>
> The person calls themself CHILL and the place is here, a
> site that only radio insiders and superfans read.
>
> Narrowcasting to one person isn't going to work for the
> Zone. Neither is narrowcasting to the other pet format
> (Energy) on this board.
>
> Zone needs to find a large niche and stick with it. They
> had a good thing going awhile back when they were branding
> everything they played as "Zone Music."
>
> Now they're just a bad clone of what the Edge used to sound
> like at 106.3/100.3
>


Well said, Ford. The "Zone music" drops they used to run sounded good and hammered the audience without being annoying.

Some of the posters that beat the same drum over and over and TELL EVERYONE HERE WHAT THE FUTURE OF RADIO IS just don't get it and never will. They don't understand demographics, psychographics, cume and mass market appeal in general.

There's a reason Honda sells so many Accords each year. They understand how to build and market a product with MASS MARKET APPEAL. That is what radio has to do. If broadcasters put the equivalent of a Mini Cooper on the air, a small group of fanatics would lay down and die for it. Everyone else would say, "Cute, but it's too small to be practical." and move on to Honda Accord radio.

Satellite providers revenue stream (if they ever have one - ie: Sirius ($2b) before Stern) is subscription based in addition to ad revenue. With their available bandwidth, a "CHILL" format is fine. If <1% of their subs listen to it, no big deal.

CAPS LOCK ON

caps lock off

LOCK ON

lock off

Wow, that's pretty easy.

 

[tanim_95]

For what it's worth, I've noticed that, in recent days, KZON is calling itself "101.5 KZON" more often than "101.5 The Zone, KZON".

 

[CHILL]

> > THE 'CHILL' LIFESTYLE IS FOR THE TRAGICALLY HIP. IF YOU
> > DON'T UNDERSTAND 'CHILL', YOU'RE JUST NOT ONE OF THEM.
>
> Good point. Tragically hip doesn't work on radio...a
> mass-appeal medium.
>

THAT'S WHAT THEY TOLD ME IN THE LATE 80'S ABOUT 'ALTERNATIVE / NEW ROCK'.

"IT'S NOT MAINSTREAM", "IT WILL STAY UNDERGROUND", "KROQ IS STRUGGLING WITH IT"... BLAH BLAH BLAH. ..WELL, IT LOOKS LIKE KROQ IS SUCCESSFUL WITH THE FORMAT.


> The "CHILL" format is so hip and so new, I've only seen it
> referenced by one person in one place...over and over again.
>
>
> The person calls themself CHILL and the place is here, a
> site that only radio insiders and superfans read.
>
> Narrowcasting to one person isn't going to work for the
> Zone. Neither is narrowcasting to the other pet format
> (Energy) on this board.
>
> Zone needs to find a large niche and stick with it. They
> had a good thing going awhile back when they were branding
> everything they played as "Zone Music."
>

I LIKED THE SUNDANCE AAA ZONE.



> Now they're just a bad clone of what the Edge used to sound
> like at 106.3/100.3
>

DAMN. YOU REALLY DON'T LIKE ME.

 

[CHILL]

Re: ALL NEWS KZON

> > WHEN I'M OUT N ABOUT, I ASK THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY'D WANT TO
>
> > HEAR ON THE RADIO; THE RESPONSE IS.. ALL NEWS, ALL JAZZ,
> > CHILL MUSIC (WHICH I WOULD INCLUDE TROPICAL, SAMBA, SALSA,
>
> > BOSSA NOVA) & TALK RADIO FOR WOMEN.
>
> I'd hate to get dragged to any of those places you hang out,
> or accidentally stumble in, for that matter.
>

DON'T WANT YOU THERE.


> Who'd be so dull to want to listen to an all-news station?
> For most, I think the little quarterly reports and bigger
> top and bottom reports do just fine.
>

THE THE FIT HITS THE SHAN.. THEY WILL.


> And I guess "the people" have never heard a commercial or
> seen the billboards for 95.5, or maybe accidentally tuned
> into it? "Duh, I want all jazz station! Have you seen my
> baseball?"
>

HOW MANY TIMES CAN YOU HEAR KENNY G BLOW THAT FLUTE LOOP ?

> "What would you like to hear on the radio?" "Bossa nova."
> Give me a friggin' break. Are you sure you are talking to
> other people, or just conversating with your multiple
> personalities?

TAKE A TRIP TO FASHION SQUARE OR THE BILTMORE. ..YOU CAN'T GET AWAY FROM IT.

> As far as talk radio for women goes, we already have that -
> it's called KFYI's weekend programming. With all that
> estrogen I'm sure it bleeds once a month.
>

 

[outoftheloop]

Good points by all. Notes on previous posts:

- Right on about "Zone Music". If they drove it home it would work, but it has been abandoned. Much like "KMLE Nation" is doing right now, this type of branding works.

- Chill is right about the 80's and 90's not only with Alternative, but also with Smooth Jazz. Critics would bring up that it would only work with niche audiences, the audience it too small to make any money. Well, we have both sides of the coin here. Alternative grew to be a mainstream audience. Smooth Jazz is still somewhat of a niche audience, but when your audience has a median income of $150,000 a year, you can make money with it.

- mr_carlson, to your point about Honda and Accords. There is a reason that mainstream radio is in trouble right now. Because it's all vanilla, boring, Accords on the freeway! Radio sucks beacause nobody is taking a chance and creating anything remarkable! The only Hummer/Mini on the road is the JACK format and the jury is still out about that, but at least they are trying something different. And guess what, people are listening! Oh wait, all the programmers that I have ever talked to said that wouldn't work! "Nobody wants train wrecks, they want consistancy", they said. HHMMM? Interesting point.

- Back to my original point, that I think that this type of format would work if (hey, what's this button with the lock on it do?) YOU FIND A DEMOGRAPHIC TO FOCUS ON (professional, upscale 25-40 that want a SJ type format to work to, but don't dig SJ) AS OPPOSED TO THE "TRAGICALLY HIP" AND FOCUS ON THEM. IMAGE THE STATION TO THE MASSES, NOT THE HARDCORE FAN. MAKE IT A SOUNDTRACK FOR THEIR LIVES. (WOW! THAT'S WHAT THAT BUTTON DOES!)

I mean, how many people are on this board (or in regular life) do you see talking about how great Smooth Jazz is? "Wow, KYOT is the best station ever! Have you heard the new David Koz?" Very few, if any, yet they are probably one of the most profitable stations in town. And really, that's what it is all about.

 

[Ford]

> THAT'S WHAT THEY TOLD ME IN THE LATE 80'S ABOUT 'ALTERNATIVE
> / NEW ROCK'.
>
> "IT'S NOT MAINSTREAM", "IT WILL STAY UNDERGROUND", "KROQ IS
> STRUGGLING WITH IT"... BLAH BLAH BLAH. ..WELL, IT LOOKS
> LIKE KROQ IS SUCCESSFUL WITH THE FORMAT.


I even said something like that back in the late 80's. Turned out I was wrong.

That said, there are plenty of dead or nearly dead niche formats (I'm thinking Jammin' Oldies and FM Talk) that were supposed to sweep the nation much like "alternative" eventually did. Hey, I even thought that whole neo-swing movement was going to be around for longer...I loved me some Squirrel Nut Zippers a few years back!

>
> DAMN. YOU REALLY DON'T LIKE ME.
>

I don't even know you. I just think you need to (pardon the pun) chill. I'm sure that your pet format will become successful if and when someone figures out how to make money off of it.

Oh, and take the damned caps lock key and throw it out the window. That's way more annoying than your love affair with "Chill."

 

[johndavis]

> I mean, how many people are on this board (or in regular
> life) do you see talking about how great Smooth Jazz is?
> "Wow, KYOT is the best station ever! Have you heard the new
> David Koz?" Very few, if any, yet they are probably one of
> the most profitable stations in town. And really, that's
> what it is all about.

It depends on the circles you run in.

This message board does not represent the entire population of the metro or the stations that people listen to.

If you went by what people post about, stations like KNRJ and KXAM would have a 10 share each. Heck, we talk enough about KRIZ here, it would score a .8 in the tally.

As to plain vanilla radio, I hate to say it, but that's what works. I've worked for stations that tried to be a musical adventure and I learned that people don't want to be educated when they turn on the radio. They want to hear what they know.

There aren't very many people sitting around saying "I wish I could hear songs I've never heard before on the radio." What they tell you is "I want you to play my favorite songs." Your task is to determine what those favorites are.

To my ears, what's missing is the entertainment value. We've got stations that are fantastic jukeboxes. If you want to kick it up a notch, you've got to make it fun to listen to.

Radio's typical approach to "fun" is to put in slogans that talk about "fun" and "good times" while removing the fun and good times... because a lot of radio people confuse branding with slogans. These are the PD's who like to quote Marketing Warfare yet they never seemed to finish the book.

If you are to own a position or create a successful brand, you must become what you say the station is.

Radio's task is to make more people listen longer. How will you compel me to do that today?<P ID="signature">______________
...co-moderator of the Satellite Radio, Phoenix, and San Diego boards...</P>

 

[johndavis]

Re: ALL NEWS KZON

> > Who'd be so dull to want to listen to an all-news station?
>
> > For most, I think the little quarterly reports and bigger
> > top and bottom reports do just fine.
> >
>
> THE THE FIT HITS THE SHAN.. THEY WILL.

Look at the old Group W format clock for a minute.

An all news format will get about 10 minutes of use per day. You will generally get them for the 5 minute A package at the top or bottom of the hour plus an extra couple of minutes for the traffic and weather segment that follows it. Then they punch back to whatever they really want to listen to.

If you're going to make a buck doing this, then you will need monster cume. Nobody listens to 1010 WINS for more than a couple of minutes at a time.

There isn't enough cume in the Phoenix market to eat off of a 10 minute TSL.

The population isn't there. That's why KTAR and KFYI aren't doing all-news all the time.

But hey, you can dream, or you can null out KDUS at night and pull in KNX.<P ID="signature">______________
...co-moderator of the Satellite Radio, Phoenix, and San Diego boards...</P>

 

[mr_carlson]

argument for outoftheloop

> Good points by all. Notes on previous posts:
>
> - Right on about "Zone Music". If they drove it home it
> would work, but it has been abandoned. Much like "KMLE
> Nation" is doing right now, this type of branding works.
>
> - Chill is right about the 80's and 90's not only with
> Alternative, but also with Smooth Jazz. Critics would bring
> up that it would only work with niche audiences, the
> audience it too small to make any money. Well, we have both
> sides of the coin here. Alternative grew to be a mainstream
> audience. Smooth Jazz is still somewhat of a niche audience,
> but when your audience has a median income of $150,000 a
> year, you can make money with it.

That's great. But "until" it becomes mainstream, it's tough to survive on ad revenue from Jag-you-are dealers, fine art-wine & cheese festivals and Phoenix magazine. These fine days, debt service rules. Last time I checked, a few of the publicly traded operators out there had a pretty huge nut to crack every quarter. Shareholders don't appreciate betting on a format and feeding it "unitl" it matures.

>
> - mr_carlson, to your point about Honda and Accords. There
> is a reason that mainstream radio is in trouble right now.
> Because it's all vanilla, boring, Accords on the freeway!
> Radio sucks beacause nobody is taking a chance and creating
> anything remarkable! The only Hummer/Mini on the road is the
> JACK format and the jury is still out about that, but at
> least they are trying something different. And guess what,
> people are listening! Oh wait, all the programmers that I
> have ever talked to said that wouldn't work! "Nobody wants
> train wrecks, they want consistancy", they said. HHMMM?
> Interesting point.

Mainstream radio isn't in trouble because of appealing to the masses, it's in trouble for puking on the masses. Even your average joe sixpack can tell that radio has changed since John McCain's Good Old Boy Communications Act of 1996.

Profitable FM will probably never again be able to be totally groundbreaking. There just aren't enough frequencies to sacrifice for the sake of experimentation.

That being said, clusters with banks of studios, automation, voice tracking and RESEARCHING TO DEATH in spite of creative human brains are choking terrestrial radio. Face it, terrestrial radio will always strive to be Honda Accords. Even Jack formats like "The Peak" are still striving to be Accords. Very little live interaction, way too much positioning and less musical depth than they would have listeners believe.

Besides, personally, I was damn tired of that Jack A$$ (no pun intended) O'Hurley by the time Seinfeld finally came to an end. Now, you can't get away from they guy. In addition to "The Peak", he's on TV & radio commercials and even on alot of the cartoons my children watch. He was even on that STUPID Dancing with the Stars on ABC. (The ratings success of that show proves that the masses will watch anything) If I find myself monitoring Peak, I have to switch to something else when one of his long winded promos come on. PUKE.

Is anyone else tired of him? To me, he's milking it worse than the "LLLLLLLLETS GET READY TO0OOOO RUMBLLLLLLLLE" idiot did. His has-been seat on the good ship Oblivion has been reserved and will be departing shortly.
>
> - Back to my original point, that I think that this type of
> format would work if (hey, what's this button with the lock
> on it do?) YOU FIND A DEMOGRAPHIC TO FOCUS ON (professional,
> upscale 25-40 that want a SJ type format to work to, but
> don't dig SJ) AS OPPOSED TO THE "TRAGICALLY HIP" AND FOCUS
> ON THEM. IMAGE THE STATION TO THE MASSES, NOT THE HARDCORE
> FAN. MAKE IT A SOUNDTRACK FOR THEIR LIVES. (WOW! THAT'S WHAT
> THAT BUTTON DOES!)
>
> I mean, how many people are on this board (or in regular
> life) do you see talking about how great Smooth Jazz is?
> "Wow, KYOT is the best station ever! Have you heard the new
> David Koz?" Very few, if any, yet they are probably one of
> the most profitable stations in town. And really, that's
> what it is all about.
>

You're exactly right, very few people on this board are SJ enthusiasts. I've stated quite clearly my narrow opinion about SJ, Coyote to be exact. I HATE JAZZ more so than any other type of music.

For me, the problem with DULL formats like Smooth Jazz or a version of Chill is client ROI, actually lack thereof. Ratings and ROI don't correlate with boring ass formats. Coyote does well financially because of the numbers, but it is almost exclusively through agency and national business. Airhead media buyers don't understand radio and buy strictly based on a friggin' TAPSCAN. Direct business is not very common on KYOT.

Mom & Pop advertiser: "How come I haven't gotten any response from my ads. I spent $X,XXX with you which is way more than I can afford." Account Exec.: "Well we have a x.x adults 25-54. Plus our listeners all graduated from Ivy League schools and earn in excess of $150K per year. So let's plan the next quarter." M&P: "Get out and don't ever come back." Mom & Pop are now done with radio forever.

The reason M&P's ROI is ZERO - It's hard to hear spots over the dentist's drill. Silk plants don't consume. Car salesman have to turn down the radio to talk about the Jag-you-are or Lexus being test driven. Nobody's listening, but it's great background music.

All that doesn't hurt right now. But when the economy slows down, direct business development will be much more important to stations like KYOT. GSM's will be hammering AE's to go after more direct business. SJ, Chill, Chinese windchimes and beautiful music will be HARD SELLS.

By the way, I have heard the new Dave Koz. IT SUCKS! Listening to a Dave Koz superset could quite possibly drive one to suicide. ha ha

My .02

 

[mr_carlson]

What? KNRJ and KXAM aren't #1 & 2? Don't forget about KRUX.

Seriously, nicely said.

> > I mean, how many people are on this board (or in regular
> > life) do you see talking about how great Smooth Jazz is?
> > "Wow, KYOT is the best station ever! Have you heard the
> new
> > David Koz?" Very few, if any, yet they are probably one of
>
> > the most profitable stations in town. And really, that's
> > what it is all about.
>
> It depends on the circles you run in.
>
> This message board does not represent the entire population
> of the metro or the stations that people listen to.
>
> If you went by what people post about, stations like KNRJ
> and KXAM would have a 10 share each. Heck, we talk enough
> about KRIZ here, it would score a .8 in the tally.
>
> As to plain vanilla radio, I hate to say it, but that's what
> works. I've worked for stations that tried to be a musical
> adventure and I learned that people don't want to be
> educated when they turn on the radio. They want to hear
> what they know.
>
> There aren't very many people sitting around saying "I wish
> I could hear songs I've never heard before on the radio."
> What they tell you is "I want you to play my favorite
> songs." Your task is to determine what those favorites are.
>
>
> To my ears, what's missing is the entertainment value.
> We've got stations that are fantastic jukeboxes. If you
> want to kick it up a notch, you've got to make it fun to
> listen to.
>
> Radio's typical approach to "fun" is to put in slogans that
> talk about "fun" and "good times" while removing the fun and
> good times... because a lot of radio people confuse branding
> with slogans. These are the PD's who like to quote
> Marketing Warfare yet they never seemed to finish the book.
>
>
> If you are to own a position or create a successful brand,
> you must become what you say the station is.
>
> Radio's task is to make more people listen longer. How will
> you compel me to do that today?
>

 

[mr_carlson]

Re: ALL NEWS KZON

> TAKE A TRIP TO FASHION SQUARE OR THE BILTMORE. ..YOU CAN'T
> GET AWAY FROM IT.


Another good reason to tell my wife I don't want to go to Fashion Square. Someone might try to force me to discover the "CHILL" lifestyle. Run for your lives! Get away!

All great radio programmers do their research at Banana Republic, bebe and Abercrombie.

 

[CHILL]

Re: ALL NEWS KZON

> > > Who'd be so dull to want to listen to an all-news
> station?
> >
> > > For most, I think the little quarterly reports and
> bigger
> > > top and bottom reports do just fine.
> > >
> >
> > THE THE FIT HITS THE SHAN.. THEY WILL.
>
> Look at the old Group W format clock for a minute.
>
> An all news format will get about 10 minutes of use per day.
> You will generally get them for the 5 minute A package at
> the top or bottom of the hour plus an extra couple of
> minutes for the traffic and weather segment that follows it.
> Then they punch back to whatever they really want to listen
> to.
>
> If you're going to make a buck doing this, then you will
> need monster cume. Nobody listens to 1010 WINS for more
> than a couple of minutes at a time.
>
> There isn't enough cume in the Phoenix market to eat off of
> a 10 minute TSL.
>
> The population isn't there. That's why KTAR and KFYI aren't
> doing all-news all the time.
>
> But hey, you can dream, or you can null out KDUS at night
> and pull in KNX.
>


DON'T FORGET..

PHOENIX IS THE FIFTH LARGEST CITY IN THE US AND..

THE NUMBER ONE CAPITOL CITY

 

[CHILL]

CHILL SHOULD BE RIGHT UP THERE WITH KYOT AND WOULD SHARE THE SAME LISTENERS.

BTW- IT'S THE 'TRAGICALLY HIP' WITH LARGE AMOUNTS OF EXPENDABLE INCOME.

CHILL SHOULD BE A BACKGROUND STATION. ..THAT'S WHAT I WANT.

I'D LIKE TO HEAR MUSIC THAT I'VE NEVER HEARD BEFORE. ..AND I WOULD POSITION THE STATION AS SUCH.

I TRY TO SAMPLE MOST STATIONS IN TOWN. OVER THE WEEKEND, FOR EXAMPLE, I PUNCHED-UP KNRJ FIVE TIMES AND HEARD MARIAH CAREY'S NEW DANCE TRACK EACH TIME. ..THAT'S WAY TOO TIGHT FOR DECENT TSL. THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH MOST MUSIC STATIONS - IMO.

 

[outoftheloop]

Re: argument for outoftheloop

> That's great. But "until" it becomes mainstream, it's tough
> to survive on ad revenue from Jag-you-are dealers, fine
> art-wine & cheese festivals and Phoenix magazine. These
> fine days, debt service rules. Last time I checked, a few
> of the publicly traded operators out there had a pretty huge
> nut to crack every quarter. Shareholders don't appreciate
> betting on a format and feeding it "unitl" it matures.

Very good point. And I did forget to mention that you would definitely have to litter the playlist with mainstream artists like Coldplay and others so that the mainstream listener has something to listen to. And while I agree with you on the debt service to a point, but that's what makes this format appealing because it would only take automation, voicetracking and a small promotions crew to make it happen. That's a lot less than hiring a multi-million dollar morning show to drive revenue. Low overhead will always precede driving revenue. There is not that much "feeding" for a format of this type.

Face it,
> terrestrial radio will always strive to be Honda Accords.
> Even Jack formats like "The Peak" are still striving to be
> Accords. Very little live interaction, way too much
> positioning and less musical depth than they would have
> listeners believe.

Agreed. First, The Peak isn't really a JACK station, if you know anything about that format. Peak is a Classic Rock Hits format that says they play whatever they want. The real Jack format plays all genres. And like I said, the jury is still out. It could have a ratings bump out of the gate or it could sustain. If I knew the answer, I would be getting paid for the opinions I share on this board.

> Is anyone else tired of him? To me, he's milking it worse
> than the "LLLLLLLLETS GET READY TO0OOOO RUMBLLLLLLLLE" idiot
> did. His has-been seat on the good ship Oblivion has been
> reserved and will be departing shortly.

Hey, I get a kick out of the guy, as he seems really nice. But this is some really good writing. Funny stuff.

> Mom & Pop advertiser: "How come I haven't gotten any
> response from my ads. I spent $X,XXX with you which is way
> more than I can afford." Account Exec.: "Well we have a
> x.x adults 25-54. Plus our listeners all graduated from Ivy
> League schools and earn in excess of $150K per year. So
> let's plan the next quarter." M&P: "Get out and don't ever
> come back." Mom & Pop are now done with radio forever.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. But the problem is that unless your name is Basha or Henry Brown, radio has been pushed out of the marketing budgets of Mom & Pop anyhow. They will never be back and very few formats are good for them. At least ones that are highly rated. Unless maybe a traffic billboard or something of that nature.

Besides, I will give you a better example to your point. M&P: Hey, what was with the DJ that came out? I paid him $XXXX and all he did was call into the station and hang out. In fact, nobody here even knew the guy! AE: Uuuhhh... Well, next time we can just put that into spots...

Your point is a good one, but it does not preclude other formats. If anything, it includes them more than an automated station. Radio has priced themselves out of small direct business.

Also, stations like this can do direct business. Look at the Jazz Series at the Wigwam on KYOT. If it weren't working, they wouldn't be doing it anymore. Also, it is these kinds of promotions and NTR that stations are going to need to do to get the direct business. Only business owners that are fans of a particular station are going to pay for the jock and promo crew to come out and sit there.

> All that doesn't hurt right now. But when the economy slows
> down, direct business development will be much more
> important to stations like KYOT. GSM's will be hammering
> AE's to go after more direct business.

That will be right after the GM cuts every cost that he can! It's easier to cut overhead than it is to drive revenue. Pure and simple. One comes before the other. If you can make a little less revenue, but spend a ton less, guess what he is going to go for...

> My .02

It's appreciated. I really have been enjoying this thread. A good lively convesation is always a good thing.

 

[mr_carlson]

Re: ALL NEWS KZON

>
> DON'T FORGET..
>
> PHOENIX IS THE FIFTH LARGEST CITY IN THE US AND..
>
> THE NUMBER ONE CAPITOL CITY
>
I think we all know that Phoenix is big. Actually, Phoenix is the SIXTH largest city in the US. Until official figures come out for the mid-decade census, Phoenix is still behind Philly.

Besides, what counts is metro ranking (total population). Phoenix stands at #15 and the top 10 is pretty distant. The fact that Phoenix is #1 population capitol city is amusing but meaningless. Juneau, AK is the largest capitol city area wise. Amazing fact, but still meaningless.

I BET THEY CAN HEAR YOUR POSTS IN JUNEAU.

CAPS ON

caps off

CAPS ON

caps off

 

[mr_carlson]

outoftheloop

What's up outoftheloop? This has been enjoyable. It's nice to discuss without fanatical, narrowmindedness that can appear. Sometimes, it's exasperating to the point that nothing but a sarcastic reply will do.

I have to say I agree about your M&P quote. Radio station remotes are the biggest client rip-off. How much better can it get for the station? They're getting paid to promote their station.

I was at a local Safeway last weekend. They were doing a KEZ remote. My God it was lame. People actually made a point to distance themselves from the Goof and Giggle van. Not a single soul at their tent. 30 minutes later when I left, still not a soul. What's that sound? It's $$$ being flushed down the toilet at Safeway.

RE: The Peak

I know it's not a true "Jack" format as was born in Vancouver. It's the closest thing Phoenix has. The positioners and promos are well written, but I personally feel like O'hurley is way overexposed. It's working for them and I'm glad to see something different. K Lite was TIRED. I can think of a few other dinosaurs that are TIRED.

Re: Direct Business

You're right. Radio has priced itself out of for mom and pop business. But that hasn't stopped LSM's from forcing AE's to go prospect for business that can't afford to do radio properly. Instead of consulting the business and being honest with the business owner, they take whatever they can get. M&P can't afford the frequency and reach they need, but they get sold anyway. Now they've wasted money and have a terrible image of radio. That hurts radio's future.

Thanks to deregulation, the increase in station values have caused radio rates to outpace inflation in double digit multiples. I think CC's inventory adjustments are a veiled attempt to bring rates up even more and then increase spot loads over time.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[PHOENIX]

Re: ALL NEWS KZON

> >
> > DON'T FORGET..
> >
> > PHOENIX IS THE FIFTH LARGEST CITY IN THE US AND..
> >
> > THE NUMBER ONE CAPITOL CITY
> >
> I think we all know that Phoenix is big. Actually, Phoenix
> is the SIXTH largest city in the US. Until official figures
> come out for the mid-decade census, Phoenix is still behind
> Philly.
>
> Besides, what counts is metro ranking (total population).
> Phoenix stands at #15 and the top 10 is pretty distant. The
> fact that Phoenix is #1 population capitol city is amusing
> but meaningless. Juneau, AK is the largest capitol city
> area wise. Amazing fact, but still meaningless.
>
> I BET THEY CAN HEAR YOUR POSTS IN JUNEAU.
>
> CAPS ON
>
> caps off
>
> CAPS ON
>
> caps off
>

YOU GUYS ARE THE BEST !! ..THANKS FOR THE LAUGHS.

ANYWAYS,

METRO RANKING (TOTAL POPULATION)..

HOW DOES ONE DETERMINE THAT ? IS IT A CERTIAN MILE RADIUS THING ??

 

[mr_carlson]

Definition of Metro for PHOENIX

>
> YOU GUYS ARE THE BEST !! ..THANKS FOR THE LAUGHS.
>
> ANYWAYS,
>
> METRO RANKING (TOTAL POPULATION)..
>
> HOW DOES ONE DETERMINE THAT ? IS IT A CERTIAN MILE RADIUS
> THING ??
>
PHOENIX: Hope this helps you..

Since we're on the radio board, let's use Arbitron's definition:

Metro Survey Area (Metro or MSA)

Arbitron Metro Survey Areas generally correspond to the federal government's Metropolitan Areas.

A Metropolitan Area includes a city (or cities) whose population is specified as that of the central city together with the county or counties in which it is located. Metropolitan Areas may also include additional or contiguous counties when their economic and social relationships meet the criteria specified for metropolitan integration. Commuting, population density, urbanization and other data supplied by the U.S. Bureau of the Census are used to define Metropolitan Areas. A Metropolitan Area may cross state lines.

Metropolitan Areas can stand alone, in which case the designation is simply Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA); or they can be large metropolitan areas composed of smaller metropolitan areas, where both the whole and each component area qualify as "metropolitan" according to the standard guidelines. The individual metropolitan areas which comprise the larger Consolidated Metropolitan Statistical Area (CMSA) are designated Primary Metropolitan Statistical Areas (PMSAs). MSAs and PMSAs, which are the basic (non-overlapping) metropolitan units, are most frequently used by businesses and other users of census data, although some of Arbitron's radio Metros do conform to the CMSA definitions.

For areas that do not have an OMB defined metropolitan area, Arbitron usually defines the Metro Survey Area to include the county(ies) of the majority of the local area radio stations' city(ies) of license. Arbitron Metro Survey Areas may cross state lines.

Although in most cases radio Metros are defined in terms of whole counties, in some cases (notably New England, (4) but elsewhere, as well), it may be necessary for Arbitron to subdivide a county into two or more split counties in order to accommodate within-county variations in signal reception and/or radio listening patterns. Split counties are defined and maintained at the zip code level, and are treated as separate sampling units for purposes of Metro Survey Area definition, sample placement and returned-sample weighting.

Arbitron Metro Survey Area definitions are reviewed for possible update once every 10 years, after the OMB has updated its Metropolitan Areas based on the new decennial census data. In the review process, consideration is given to longstanding historical definitions. Planned changes are announced in advance so that consideration may also be given to the views of subscribers.

Changes to existing Metro Survey Area definitions between the 10-year OMB review cycles will be considered by Arbitron if a formal written proposal, which presents in detail the rationale and benefits of the proposed Metro, is submitted to Arbitron within established deadlines; widespread subscriber support for the change is generally required, as well.

 

[PHOENIX]

Re: Definition of Metro for PHOENIX

> >
> PHOENIX: Hope this helps you..
>
> Since we're on the radio board, let's use Arbitron's
> definition:
>
> Metro Survey Area (Metro or MSA)
>
> Arbitron Metro Survey Areas generally correspond to the
> federal government's Metropolitan Areas.
>
> A Metropolitan Area includes a city (or cities) whose
> population is specified as that of the central city together
> with the county or counties in which it is located.
> Metropolitan Areas may also include additional or contiguous
> counties when their economic and social relationships meet
> the criteria specified for metropolitan integration.
> Commuting, population density, urbanization and other data
> supplied by the U.S. Bureau of the Census are used to define
> Metropolitan Areas. A Metropolitan Area may cross state
> lines.
>
> Metropolitan Areas can stand alone, in which case the
> designation is simply Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA);
> or they can be large metropolitan areas composed of smaller
> metropolitan areas, where both the whole and each component
> area qualify as "metropolitan" according to the standard
> guidelines. The individual metropolitan areas which comprise
> the larger Consolidated Metropolitan Statistical Area (CMSA)
> are designated Primary Metropolitan Statistical Areas
> (PMSAs). MSAs and PMSAs, which are the basic
> (non-overlapping) metropolitan units, are most frequently
> used by businesses and other users of census data, although
> some of Arbitron's radio Metros do conform to the CMSA
> definitions.
>
> For areas that do not have an OMB defined metropolitan area,
> Arbitron usually defines the Metro Survey Area to include
> the county(ies) of the majority of the local area radio
> stations' city(ies) of license. Arbitron Metro Survey Areas
> may cross state lines.
>
> Although in most cases radio Metros are defined in terms of
> whole counties, in some cases (notably New England, (4) but
> elsewhere, as well), it may be necessary for Arbitron to
> subdivide a county into two or more split counties in order
> to accommodate within-county variations in signal reception
> and/or radio listening patterns. Split counties are defined
> and maintained at the zip code level, and are treated as
> separate sampling units for purposes of Metro Survey Area
> definition, sample placement and returned-sample weighting.
>
> Arbitron Metro Survey Area definitions are reviewed for
> possible update once every 10 years, after the OMB has
> updated its Metropolitan Areas based on the new decennial
> census data. In the review process, consideration is given
> to longstanding historical definitions. Planned changes are
> announced in advance so that consideration may also be given
> to the views of subscribers.
>
> Changes to existing Metro Survey Area definitions between
> the 10-year OMB review cycles will be considered by Arbitron
> if a formal written proposal, which presents in detail the
> rationale and benefits of the proposed Metro, is submitted
> to Arbitron within established deadlines; widespread
> subscriber support for the change is generally required, as
> well.
>

10 YEARS !!

I THINK IT'S TIME FOR ANOTHER OMB REVIEW TO RE-DEFINE OUR MARKET SIZE; WITH CITIES LIKE SURPRISE BEING THE FASTEST GROWING IN THE NATION AND ALL.

THANKS FOR THE IN-DEPTH ANSWER MR C

 

[outoftheloop]

Re: mr_carlson has good points

> I was at a local Safeway last weekend. They were doing a
> KEZ remote. People actually made a
> point to distance themselves from the Goof and Giggle van.
> Not a single soul at their tent. 30 minutes later when I
> left, still not a soul. What's that sound? It's $$$ being
> flushed down the toilet at Safeway.

Again, exceptional take. Typical and AGREED
>
> RE: The Peak
>
K Lite was
> TIRED. I can think of a few other dinosaurs that are TIRED.

AGREED

> Re: Direct Business

AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!

See how easy that was, fellow netizens! A little discussion can go a long way. Thanks again mr_carlson