What will the next SJ station be to bite the dust?

[AC Tones]

• For whatever reason, advertisers don't care about anyone over the age of 34. I fail to understand why, when the average age of the country is increasing every year. There's very little music programming for older adults, and maybe that's why many do not listen to radio any more, except for the news.

That is a great point about listeners over the age of 34 being ignored by advertisers (and programmers, for that matter). I have mentioned this to some of my listeners. Would love for someone in the industry to explain that to me. People over the age of 34 are more likely to be established in their careers and earning more disposable income, and thus (at least theoretically) will have more $$$ to spend at those businesses being pimped on radio. This can be no more applicable than to the SJ format. While I realize a lot of retirees may be on a fixed income, in less difficult economic times, the 35-55 group that has been largely ignored and untapped by radio would seem to offer great potential. But I guess if terrestrial radio is rolling out garbage anyway, people are not going to listen, so why waste the advertising dollars?

 

[Nock]

Yeah we may be earning more, but me personally the disposable income is being dumped into retirement so I am not bagging groceries at Publix when I retire. Now on the other hand, my 16 and 17 year old, fast approaching that prime demo, spend as fast as they earn it. That's the big difference.

Nock

 

[Carmine5]

• For whatever reason, advertisers don't care about anyone over the age of 34. I fail to understand why, when the average age of the country is increasing every year. There's very little music programming for older adults, and maybe that's why many do not listen to radio any more, except for the news.

While I realize a lot of retirees may be on a fixed income, in less difficult economic times, the 35-55 group that has been largely ignored and untapped by radio would seem to offer great potential. But I guess if terrestrial radio is rolling out garbage anyway, people are not going to listen, so why waste the advertising dollars?

Of course, a lot of seniors own their homes free and clear and so many do have discretionary dollars to spend.

But I recall an article by a music critic for the San Francisco Chronicle that talked about a "compression" phenomenon occurring with radio's listeners. Because radio no longer programs for those over 64, the generation that actually grew up with radio, that audience has, mostly, gone away. Then you have the up and coming Gen Y who never developed a habit of listening to radio (or lost it after growing out of Radio Disney). That leaves a narrow band of Boomers and some Gen X.

As you observed, advertisers have little interest in reaching Boomers who are now in their mid 40's through 60's. And with Gen X'ers heading toward their upper 30's and early 40's, away from the mythical 18-34 demo, and you begin to see the corner advertisers and programmers have painted themselves into. They don't want Boomers and much of Gen X, whom they are beginning to lose anyway, and their attempts to sell or program to a non-listening Gen Y are a failure.

So why don't advertisers and programmers do more to reach those who might still actually listen to radio (before they disappear)? I don't know. It might be fear of change coupled with clinging to a belief in a dogma that should have been discarded ages ago.

There have been attempts to change attitudes about older consumers, include a campaign by AARP, but so far it has yielded few results.

C5

 

[AC Tones]

Yeah we may be earning more, but me personally the disposable income is being dumped into retirement so I am not bagging groceries at Publix when I retire. Now on the other hand, my 16 and 17 year old, fast approaching that prime demo, spend as fast as they earn it. That's the big difference.

Nock

I hear you, Nock. Me too, and the market hasn't helped. But I also agree with Carmine that there are plenty of folks who choose not to have kids who I would think are in better shape financially or who are free and clear of a house payment, and I think they are exactly the demographic SJ stations should have gone after. Some of my most loyal listeners are retired and are over the age of 50. Would it have saved the genre? Probably not, because the product has to be worthy of keeping potential patrons. The quality of the product is what ultimately keeps loyal listeners around, particularly if you listen to their suggestions/feedback and demonstrate this through tweaking your programming.

 

[klutch00]

Well now you know how we classical radio fans feel everytime another classical signal bites the dust... personally, I would love to see smooth jazz take off on AM radio! I'm tired of all the blah, blah, blah. Sheesh! In fact I would love to hear straight ahead jazz on the air again (AM or FM). There is one such jazz station on AM; it's WBAA in West Lafayette... sometimes we can hear them in Chicagoland at night. Unfortunately it's not a very strong station.

Don't forget you also have WCIN in Cincinnati (at 1480 khz). I wouldn't have a problem listening to a smooth jazzer on AM, but I realize I'm in the minority on that one. I realize 'CIN isn't doing horrible, but they're not doing great either.

• Very few stations put out a quality AM signal, and that's part of the reason why AM is not considered useful for music programming. That's really not the case if you do it right.
• For whatever reason, advertisers don't care about anyone over the age of 34. I fail to understand why, when the average age of the country is increasing every year. There's very little music programming for older adults, and maybe that's why many do not listen to radio any more, except for the news.
• Not that the news is very good these days either...

I thought the advertising target range is still 25-54.

I agree that there should be a quality AM transmission standard in ANALOG! Now, outside of utilizing a quality analog transmission standard such as AMAX, AM stereo or something else when you say "do it right" what do you mean?

 

[Carmine5]

Yeah we may be earning more, but me personally the disposable income is being dumped into retirement so I am not bagging groceries at Publix when I retire. Now on the other hand, my 16 and 17 year old, fast approaching that prime demo, spend as fast as they earn it. That's the big difference.

Nock

I hear you, Nock. Me too, and the market hasn't helped. But I also agree with Carmine that there are plenty of folks who choose not to have kids who I would think are in better shape financially or who are free and clear of a house payment, and I think they are exactly the demographic SJ stations should have gone after. Some of my most loyal listeners are retired and are over the age of 50. Would it have saved the genre? Probably not, because the product has to be worthy of keeping potential patrons. The quality of the product is what ultimately keeps loyal listeners around, particularly if you listen to their suggestions/feedback and demonstrate this through tweaking your programming.

I do occasional freelance work for a smooth jazz label and I can tell you, from tracking the sales and inquiries, that this genre of music crosses all boundaries: race, age, economic, you name it.

Why smooth jazz doesn't do better on radio, except in a few markets, is a mystery. Although I will say that, because of the "pollution" of smooth jazz with AC, I very seldom listen to my local SJ station, KTWV. That may be one reason.

Interestingly, Mark Ramsey in his "10 Predictions for Radio's Next 5 Years" made this prediction:

"3. The formats which rise (to the degree that formats rise) will be the ones catering specifically to audiences who are less tech savvy or the old dogs who don’t wish to be taught new tricks. Look for Spanish language radio to be the big winner here along with anything targeting aging Boomers."

He also predicted that stations will become less dependent on "The Book" when it comes to programming formats.

So, who knows, perhaps, in time, older demos and smooth jazz will be recognized as a potent force and combination for advertisers and PD's to consider.

C5

 

[Bill Harmonic]

Smooth jazz died because the life was squeezed out of the format. WE no longer danced with those who listened originally. WE could have evolved successfully but did not so it's time to reinvent the platform. Remember that the music is still very viable for the most part and it's up to US to make it work in what way WE can. The question becomes what are YOU going to do to make this music popular again? Where's the opportunity for YOU to contribute and how can YOU take what WE had and make it revelant again? It's not going to be easy but it can be done. It's up to all of US with the passion of the sound to make it work! THOSE with the commitment will do the walking while the rest just do the talking. What have YOU done today for YOUR music?

 

[Nock]

[quote authorThe question becomes what are YOU going to do to make this music popular again? Where's the opportunity for YOU to contribute and how can YOU take what WE had and make it revelant again? It's not going to be easy but it can be done. It's up to all of US with the passion of the sound to make it work! THOSE with the commitment will do the walking while the rest just do the talking. What have YOU done today for YOUR music?
[/quote]

Sooooo Bill (The Man Behind The Curtain), never made a dime playing the music but in one form or another have been playing the music for the past 5 or so years. Currently in the process of taking it to a much bigger stick. My question is, what can we do? We have hobbyists running great streams, we have folks like you syndicating great programs, folks like me volunteering on stations with block programming. We must start talking as a group instead of bitchin as a group. However someone needs to prod and poke the fire to get it started. Probably a good time for a new thread. But if we are going to band together, let's start thinking together and create a plan. We have been talking like this for a year. Sometimes i feel like you hold the answer and not wanting to share. Let's get it out on the table and do something about it. I can not tolerate another Boney or Elliot remake cd.

Nock

 

[Bill Harmonic]

Nock... I really believe at this point it's up to each of us to carve out his or her space and let's see what goes from there. The group energy is there but I don't think the group power has arrived yet. I'm always open for discussion and can be reached easily at [email protected]. I'm not holding anything back and I'm willing to be a sounding board for who ever needs it but I'm just one dude. I've made a living playing this music and have been running smooth jazz stations for sometime now but I'm very open to new ways and ideas. Remember that all "experience" means that I've been there, done it and screwed it up so I know better than to do it that way again in that situation. Lets keep the thought process open and moving forward. My goal is to fail faster because that means I'm trying new things and I will reach what I'm listening for quicker. Couple of thoughts. This is a marathon and not a sprint. Seth Godin said it best in that "persistence isn't using the same tactics over and over but it's having the same goal over and over." Think about that as the landscape changes around us almost every minute. It took me four years and a chunk of change to get my show up and running this month and I was blessed with four stations out of the box but the work continues every day. Remember that this is about entertainment and only about entertainment. If you are there to "educate" then you will fail. You educate by providing the best entertainment you can...period. You can educate yourself with a couple of great articles at Smoothviews.com. One is by Shannon West in "Perspectives" called Moving On-The End Of The Radio Era and the other is by Elizabeth Ware. It can be found "On the Lighter Side" and it's called The 587th Time...good stuff. We are at a very interesting time in the evolution of this music and have come full circle in many ways. I started out doing a successful Sunday jazz show in the early 80's and saw that this music was heading out the door of record shops and was getting no airplay. We all have to do our part where we can and for me that's creating my little three hours each week better than I did the week before. I take the responsibility of doing the best I can for those operators who entrusted me with their stations very seriously. I'm having a ball but this is "bidness" and I'm not making a dime at the moment. In fact getting the stations means more bucks out the door each week and I have not had a full time job since I was downsized for budget back in November 2007. But the station that put me out also gave me my first break and for that I'm very very grateful. I'm not here to cut someone out of their piece of the pie but I'm here to make the pie bigger so more can share. One last thing...quit kicking that dead BA horse. That does nothing. If anything it should make us want it even more. They are what they are and they have not helped at all but use that to make it better. I tell my wife every week when she remarks about a song in my show that she likes, that it's another one of those bad testing tunes and we have a good laugh. BA is not worth the effort and all they do is take you ears off the goal. One last thing...I don't care if it's an original tune or a cover version of anything I play. I just care if it's good. Your music selections should be judged on good or bad only. I've rambled enough...sorry! The opportunity is in your hands and mine. I know what I'm doing. What are you?

 

[AC Tones]

Well, I am one of the aforementioned "hobbyists," so I am not exactly sure what "I" can do. My passion is undeniable, and my loyal listeners will attest to that. My listenership is small, I have no true connections in the industry whatsoever, and advanced releases aren't exactly arriving in my mailbox everyday (nor do I expect them to). But one of the fortunate things about being a hobby broadcaster is that it is just that, a hobby (albeit a costly one). I have only been on the air for 7 months, and I am sure there are scores of people on this board who have forgotten more about the business side of radio than I will ever learn. But I think I know "good" contemporary jazz music when I hear it, at least from a listeners' perspective.

For what it's worth, my definition of "good" music is that which has withstood the test of time. It has a vibe so good that it sounds every bit as fresh and pleasing to the ear today as it did 10, 15, 20 years ago. Call me a throwback, or someone who REFUSES to let go of the past. But I play plenty of NAC on my station that sounds a heck of a lot better than some of the crap that is being peddled out these days (and I am not just talking about BA--I am talking about the artists as well, and to include some big name ones). Lesser known artists like Max Groove and J Michael Verta, who made great music back in the day, are staples on my station, and rightfully so. But just playing "good" music is not enough, IMO. It also takes a commitment from programmers to be responsive to their listeners (particularly the loyal and knowledgeable ones who have been following this genre since its inception). But equally important, it takes a commitment from artists to go back to the basics and take a few pages from their NAC predecessors' books (to include listening to their old CDs ). The good news is, I think artists are starting to get the message. "Good" music by new and lesser known artists has been released over the last few months, and the established greats are starting to follow suit. I'm not about to throw in the towel just yet and say this genre is dead and burried and that we need to evolve into some new, yet-to-be determined sound. Chill is a nice change of pace in my playlist, but not a viable 24/7 format, IMO. I think "we" (programmers and artists) need to go back to what made contemporary jazz so good to begin with ("original" pop instrumental music with an upbeat vibe), but by no means can we go at it alone.

BTW, congrats to both Bill on his syndicated program and Nock on his new project. I love the spirited discussion, and it is demonstrative of the kind of passion that's still out there for this genre. And the day we STOP talking about it should be a concern to everyone on this board who grew up with and embraced this music.

Peace,

Chris
wavjazz.net
"The .wav" Smooth Jazz @ LoudCity.com

 

[Carmine5]

Smooth jazz died because the life was squeezed out of the format. WE no longer danced with those who listened originally. WE could have evolved successfully but did not so it's time to reinvent the platform. Remember that the music is still very viable for the most part and it's up to US to make it work in what way WE can. The question becomes what are YOU going to do to make this music popular again? Where's the opportunity for YOU to contribute and how can YOU take what WE had and make it revelant again? It's not going to be easy but it can be done. It's up to all of US with the passion of the sound to make it work! THOSE with the commitment will do the walking while the rest just do the talking. What have YOU done today for YOUR music?

Well, Bill, to quote The Beatles, "We're all doin' what we can", short of storming a radio station, barricading ourselves in and programming smooth jazz as we see fit.

The label I work with, C22 Records, is in the process of remastering and reissuing the TBA Records catalog (including Tim Heintz) as well as new recordings with Wilton Felder and Ronnie Laws. I've been involved with transferring their old F1 masters to other formats for delivery and preservation as well as creating content for their website.

You can check out their new website (which is a work-in-progress at this point) here:

http://www.century22productions.com/

C5

 

[Bill Harmonic]

Carmine5...That TBA music is MONEY! TBA Records, for those of you who were not there, had some of the best players and music in a very small stable. it was one of those labels where you would buy the CD just because it was on that label! Not every one was a winner but most were and it was a great label with an excellent roster. They even did covers well. I still look for them in the used CD stores. When are they coming out? I agree in that we're all doin' what we can. As long as we're doin' something then the music moves forward. If we don't then it goes away.

 

[Carmine5]

Carmine5...That TBA music is MONEY! TBA Records, for those of you who were not there, had some of the best players and music in a very small stable. it was one of those labels where you would buy the CD just because it was on that label! Not every one was a winner but most were and it was a great label with an excellent roster. They even did covers well. I still look for them in the used CD stores. When are they coming out? I agree in that we're all doin' what we can. As long as we're doin' something then the music moves forward. If we don't then it goes away.

Thanks for the kind words, Bill. I sent them on to the company pres, Dr. George Shaw. Can he quote you?

At this point, I'm not sure when the catalog will be released. They're getting barcodes, still doing some legal stuff on a few songs, creating glass masters and refreshing some of the covers. Plus I'm still digging through the F1 masters.

What's interesting is that as I transfer the masters over I'm finding unreleased tracks. Apparently there was a 10 cut max for albums (to accommodate the limited space of LPs). So the unreleased music needs to get clearance before it is issued. Still sounds fresh though.

I'll send Dr. Shaw a link to your website. Also, send him an email through Century 22 and he'll keep you in the loop as to what's going with the catalog. Undoubtedly it will be released through iTunes and Amazon in addition to a physical CD.

C5

 

[majaman78]

Carmine5...That TBA music is MONEY! TBA Records, for those of you who were not there, had some of the best players and music in a very small stable. it was one of those labels where you would buy the CD just because it was on that label! Not every one was a winner but most were and it was a great label with an excellent roster. They even did covers well. I still look for them in the used CD stores. When are they coming out? I agree in that we're all doin' what we can. As long as we're doin' something then the music moves forward. If we don't then it goes away.

Thanks for the kind words, Bill. I sent them on to the company pres, Dr. George Shaw. Can he quote you?

At this point, I'm not sure when the catalog will be released. They're getting barcodes, still doing some legal stuff on a few songs, creating glass masters and refreshing some of the covers. Plus I'm still digging through the F1 masters.

What's interesting is that as I transfer the masters over I'm finding unreleased tracks. Apparently there was a 10 cut max for albums (to accommodate the limited space of LPs). So the unreleased music needs to get clearance before it is issued. Still sounds fresh though.

I'll send Dr. Shaw a link to your website. Also, send him an email through Century 22 and he'll keep you in the loop as to what's going with the catalog. Undoubtedly it will be released through iTunes and Amazon in addition to a physical CD.

C5

Yeeehaaaaaaawww! TBA Records out of Long Beach (or was it Studio City) CA. Got any Frank Potenza?? ;D

I've got the entire Tim Heintz catalog (some on LP). Made a 4 hour trip some 15 years ago from Hartford CT to Worcester MA just to obtain a cutout of Searching The Heart, my favorite Heintz CD in a snowstorm no less! Where was the internet back then??

Actually have spoken with Tim a few times about 10 years or so, just about the time he released his "Lost and Found" compilation disc on his own label.

Geez, my T.H. collection will drop in value if you re-release them! :'( Notice what they fetch over at Amazon lately? I also have some Carlos Reyes who also recorded for TBA.

Great that someone is finally re-releasing the TBA catalog. Wish it happened years ago!

 

[Bill Harmonic]

If I remember correctly, wasn't Dr. Shaw one of the players and the major producer? Tim Heintz, Frank Potenza, Paul Russo, Alvino Bennett, Terence Elliot, very early Eric Marienthal, the good Doc and others. They were a great house band that played very early and ground breaking contemporary instrumental music. If you've played this kind of music at anytime, you owe a debt of gratitude to these players who greatly influenced and drove this sound to new heights. In fact, most people don't know that Tim Heintz (who probably is the best name from TBA) and his song Dear Jacqui, which still gets ample airplay today, came out on TBA in 1989. Please tell Dr. Shaw that he can quote anything I say. It would be an honor to help in anyway that I could and I'm very grateful for their music. For me, it's the kind of stuff that makes the trip worth the effort. If I can be of service, please contact me at [email protected]. This is great news!

 

[Carmine5]

Wow, I'm kinda surprised people still remember TBA Records and the TBA artists. They were some of the first artists to record this genre of music. Back then they were calling it "Quiet Storm" music before it became smooth jazz. Took a lot of heat from mainstream jazz artists.

The record company was indeed based out of Studio City but the recording studio was (and still is) located in Long Beach, CA. Most of the artists lived in and around Long Beach and the South Bay area at the time.

Dr. Shaw produced most of the albums. He tells me "Dear Jacqui" was composed by himself and Tim Heintz as an afterthought because Tim's album wasn't long enough. They didn't think it would be a hit.

It's odd how the whole re-issue project came about. Dr. Shaw, after a long dormant period, started getting inquiries from all over Europe and Japan about the TBA catalog; were the albums available, are the TBA artists still recording, are they touring?

Although George had all of the original master tapes in his possession, he didn't have exclusive rights to them. So, in order to get exclusive rights to the catalog he signed away his rights to "Dear Jacqui" which is owned by a record company that bought out TBA.

As the roster stands now, C22 Records is set to release two Tim Heintz albums, all of Frank Potenza, Paul Russo, Alvin Hayes, Damon Rentie, Cruise Control with Eric Marienthal, Jetstream and Daline Jones. They will be downloads first and, eventually, CDs.

There is also talk of recording new material and putting together a tour. Some of the TBA artists play at Spagettini's in Seal Beach.

I've known Dr. Shaw since the early 80's and sat in on a few of the first recording sessions. I was also hired to photograph some of TBA's covers (such as the cover for Tim Heintz's album, "Quiet Time").

Probably more information then you wanted to know, but there it is. Keep checking the website from time to time as Dr. Shaw will be regularly putting up new content, including interviews and photos.

C5

 

[Double D]

If today's just-released ratings are any indication (1.3), I'd put money on Milwaukee's SAGA Kepler/BA clone being the next to bite the dust.

I can't listen to the station/product anyway, so it will be no great loss to me if/when they do die.

DD

 

[majaman78]

If today's just-released ratings are any indication (1.3), I'd put money on Milwaukee's SAGA Kepler/BA clone being the next to bite the dust.

I can't listen to the station/product anyway, so it will be no great loss to me if/when they do die.

DD

Hey DD >>>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was Milwaukee originally a Jones affiliate?

Their latest numbers truly blow...they remind me of the numbers Jacksonville got when they made the death switch to BA. Can't say I'm disappointed!!

 

[Double D]

Hey DD >>>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was Milwaukee originally a Jones affiliate?

Their latest numbers truly blow...they remind me of the numbers Jacksonville got when they made the death switch to BA. Can't say I'm disappointed!!

Hey majaman78:

The SAGA SJ station here in Milwaukee has always been a BA clone (since flipping from Classical in 6/07)...it was WAUN-FM, Green Bay, WI that was the one-and-only Jones affiliate here in Wisconsin...I believe their ratings have also fallen off the map since their forced switch to BA last fall!

DD

 

[AnotherCat]

Their latest numbers truly blow...they remind me of the numbers Jacksonville got when they made the death switch to BA. Can't say I'm disappointed!!

Yeah..and I remember the hype-inflated press release BA sent out when they picked up Jacksonville. They were going to turn that thing around and take it to the top : Of course the station had been torn apart by a self indulgent musician freeforming it in PM drive. He was playing his favorites, his friends albums, and 10 minute acoustic jazz duos mixed with old school R&B. He ran off 75% of the audience in less than two ratings periods so I guess the backlash against that would be to fall into the waiting arms of BA. Someone from the station actually said they expected BA to take them top 5 in adults within a year. Even with their signal. Sorry, but no. :-*